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Tags feminism isues , sexism issues , sports issues

View Poll Results: Should 'Walk On Girls' and similar roles for sexy women in sport be done away with
Yes 31 31.96%
No 29 29.90%
Don't know 5 5.15%
Don't care 29 29.90%
Planet X 3 3.09%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 7th February 2018, 11:28 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'm not worried bout multi-billion dollar industries being pressured by SJWs. They will do what is best for business and use the SJWs where convenient.
"Hold my beer and watch me ride this tiger!"
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:31 AM   #322
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Men know what is best for women
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:56 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Maybe they will attract more families to the event. Men deciding that their wives and children should come along. These wives and children do agree it is a suitable day's activity.
Are these events significantly under-selling tickets to a degree where they need that extra custom?
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:07 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Another proof that being gay is awesome: when the players are the eye candy, you can enjoy the game on two levels at once!
And you know what? Afterwards the players all get in a big bath together.

Actually, they no longer do that, but still....

Last edited by Information Analyst; 7th February 2018 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Superfluous.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:11 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Are these events significantly under-selling tickets to a degree where they need that extra custom?
USA, UK, and Belgium (due to Dutch fans for Verstappen) have been getting good crowds but many others aren't coming close to a sellout. Germany in particular is a problem, as are a lot of the newer races like China.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 7th February 2018 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:21 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Men know what is best for women
CEO's are supposed to know what is best for their organization.

But if you want to consult for free, I'm sure their looking forward to your free analysis. Please limit your* submission to ten pages.

*The general you, not you specifically.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:27 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I just can't see it really changing hardly anyone's mind. Below is a picture of how they were dressed at last years Australian GP, not exactly string bikinis.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/...9976469371.jpg

They'd sometimes show women in the crowd, or some celebrity in Ferrari or Merc's garage, during the broadcast that was more provocatively dressed.
Nor, you'll notice, was there any of the advertising many in this thread are claiming.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:30 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
USA, UK, and Belgium (due to Dutch fans for Verstappen) have been getting good crowds but many others aren't coming close to a sellout. Germany in particular is a problem, as are a lot of the newer races like China.
Melbourne gets great crowds too.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:48 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
The Sun is your news source??
Not really.
I get most of my darts news from live TV, and I can't really post that here. So I googled and posted the first link that reported what I saw.

So yes, it's the Sun, and no, that doesn't make it untrue.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:56 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It doesn't make it exploitation, either.
Are you saying that it doesn't make freak shows and child labor exploitation? Not sure I'm reading you right.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:28 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
That's more than I make in a month, for way less work. If that's exploitation, I volunteer to be exploited. If anybody tried to tell me I am blind to how bad that is for me, I'll tell them to mind their own damn business.
There's a bit of a nuance here, from my perspective. I don't really consider grid girls to be "exploited" exactly... But I do think it's clear objectification.

This is very conceptual to me, not really easy to put into words, so bear with me please.

Let's talk about modeling - the whole point of modeling is for the models to be attractive. That's true for both men and women. The entire function of modeling is "we all like to look at pretty people". The same is somewhat true for actors and musicians, although there's a lot more breadth available for non-pretty in there, because talent is still a very large element of those careers. I mean, if you can sing AND you're pretty, then you're in great shape. If you're pretty and can't sing worth a damn... being pretty is irrelevant. If you can act and you're a hottie, then awesome (think Jason Momoa **drool**)... But if you're a hottie who can't act his way out of a paper bag... you're just not going to get cast.

So where do grid girls, and similar roles fit? They're not selling the sport - the sport gains fans and followers based on the skill of the athletes. And their attractiveness isn't amplifying an innate skill that is relevant to the sport. Their sole purpose in being there is eye candy. Their role is literally to be objectified. There's no interest in them as people - they aren't people. They're hot bodies that make us think of sex... and nothing else really, not in the eyes of the observers.

Now that said... sex sells, and sex is a drive in all normal humans. And if there was a long history of women being valued for their skills, brains, and merits, I'd see less of an argument against grid girls and similar. I mean, there are grid boys, but that's a very unusual role for a man, and generally speaking, men (even really attractive ones) don't have a disproportionately difficult time getting well-paying jobs. They choose to be grid boys because they enjoy it. They're selecting that as an option from among many other comparable-paying opportunities in most cases. And while we've certainly made progress... I don't think the same sentiment is as true for women. It's certainly not a bright line here... but I think there's still enough systemic bias that this sort of objectification isn't really ideal.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:30 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Anyone watching F1 for the crashes last year would've been sorely disappointed, there were probably more crashes in any single NASCAR race than the entire season. Grosjean isn't what he once was and no Maldanado on the grid Although Vettel intentionally ramming Hamilton was some serious drama.
We haven't watched F1 in years, not since they neutered the engines. Now I'm going to have to see if I can find a clip of that - Vettel ramming Hamilton sounds worth seeing!
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:34 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What a travesty that this multi-billion dollar venture is trying to broaden its appeal. Can we stop them at this point or will they just retreat to grid puppies?
They could actually use this as an opportunity to make more money: charge for classes on how to be a grid person... then allow "certified" grid persons to pay a fee for the privilege of being on the grid for their favorite drivers!
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:37 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It was taking its natural course, but news rags that specialize in T&A and the ever-present MRAs have decided that it's an issue worth fighting for. The natural course in a capitalist environment is that the stake-holders decided that they were not getting the demographic they wanted and were going to drop the outdated burlesque show practice of parading female forms. They cancelled, and now the special snowflakes of the neanderthal sort are claiming that they're being emasculated by ugly bull-dyke feminazis coming to sap their precious bodily essence,..... or sumfin'.

I mentioned before that the automobile shows here in Asia are starting to cut out the bikini cuties, too. Asia! Patriarchy Incarnate. It seems that the assumption that It's A Man's World was knocked on its ass by the actual demographics and that the woman of the household has equal or greater say in the purchase of the family automobile. If Mrs. Lim wants to go to the Singapore auto extravaganza, she does not want Mr. Lim busily ogling the sweeties at the "Exciting New Ford Crapola 2019" display. THEY WERE LOSING CUSTOMERS because they were losing visitors other than post-pubescent teenage boys who can't afford the hooker bars!

F1, the BBC, Ford, Mazda, Toyota, ITV... they have some fairly good market research. And, it's their show, their product, their money. The fact that Alf in Islington misses Benny Hill and relied on Grid Girls for his soft porn is not going to be a huge determining factor. The fact that The Sun (d.b.a. T&A Weekly) musters a poll of like-minded troglodytes is also not going to be a big factor. How many Ferraris did Sun readers buy last year? How many sets of Michelins?
Sometimes I just really love your posts.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:39 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Men, for some reason, are much more susceptible to the allure of eye candy. This means there will always be more eye candy for men than for women.
I disagree. I'll happily watch anything with Jason Momoa in it, regardless of the cinematic value of the film. Hell, I don't even require the sound to be on. There's a whole lot of TV and Movie crap that I watch solely for the eye candy.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Another proof that being gay is awesome: when the players are the eye candy, you can enjoy the game on two levels at once!
That's a serious win right there!
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:43 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Or female. When i watch sports my wife will watch with me for the same reasons as you.
Agreed. It;s the only reason I ever pay attention to american football. Those men have some fantastic backsides.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:03 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Are you saying that it doesn't make freak shows and child labor exploitation? Not sure I'm reading you right.
I'm saying that making good money and being unhappy when put out of work isn't what makes child labor exploitation.
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:09 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm saying that making good money and being unhappy when put out of work isn't what makes child labor exploitation.
That makes a lot more sense that what I was interpreting! I also agree .

I hadn't intended to say that that's what made child labor exploitative. I was attempting to sarcastically repeat TheGoldCountry's argument back at him with an example that makes the flaws a bit more apparent.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:27 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I disagree. I'll happily watch anything with Jason Momoa in it, regardless of the cinematic value of the film. Hell, I don't even require the sound to be on. There's a whole lot of TV and Movie crap that I watch solely for the eye candy.


Would you pay money specifically to go ogle eye candy? Would your friends? I don't in the slightest deny the visual portion of female sexuality but it seems there's not as much money in it as there is male sexuality.

There are more strip clubs for men, more male orientated porn, more male orientated prostitution services for men and more ladies used decoratively at events than men.

My suspicion is that men, in general, are more likely to indulge in paying for the chance to look at the female form than women are and that, like most things, it's on a bell curve, or, rather, two overlapping ones.

I do not know if this tendency is biological or cultural. Perhaps men merely feel more empowered to spend their money on this or perhaps women aren't so stupid as to spend money on such things or perhaps there are other factors in play.

If there is no gender related difference in how sexuality is driven, and I'm very open to that idea, then I'd be interested in the alternative explanations for why there is such a disparity in the availability of sexual services. Given that commerce in general and the sex industry in particular really doesn't respond to social taboos if there's profit to be made. My assumption is that such enterprises aimed at ladies simply don't have the size of market of the male orientated things but this only an assumption, the reality is I don't know.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:32 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Would you pay money specifically to go ogle eye candy? Would your friends? I don't, in the slightest deny the visual portion of female sexuality, but it seems there's not as much money in it as there is male sexuality.

There are more strip clubs for men, more male orientated porn, more male orientated prostitution services for men and more ladies used decoratively at events than men.

My suspicion is that men, in general, are more likely to indulge in paying for the chance to look at the female form than women are and, that, like most things, it's on a bell curve, or, rather, two overlapping ones.
Fair points, all around.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I do not know if this tendency is biological or cultural. Perhaps men merely feel more empowered to spend their money on this or perhaps women aren't so stupid as to spend money on such things or perhaps there are other factors in play.

If there is no gender related difference in how sexuality is driven, and I'm very open to that idea, then I'd be interested in the alternative explanations for why there is such a disparity in the availability of sexual services. Given that commerce in general and the sex industry in particular really doesn't respond to social taboos if there's profit to be made. My assumption is that such enterprises aimed at ladies simply don't have the size of market of the male orientated things but this only an assumption, the reality is I don't know.
While there may be a biological component to it, I'm inclined to think there's a lot more cultural at play. How women have been treated and viewed historically isn't something easy to shake off. For a not insubstantial chunk of history, women's largest perceived value was their ability to bear children (especially sons) for men. Oh, they're also useful for cooking and cleaning... what else are they gonna do when they aren't providing sexual services to their effective owners? It's just common sense to multi-task.

Of course that's an exaggeration. But there's a core of truth in there - the value of a woman for a very long part of human history was in her ability to bear children for her man. Not in anything implicit in her as a person, but in her loins. Women were pretty much objects for procreation... not full persons in and of themselves.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:52 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fair points, all around.


While there may be a biological component to it, I'm inclined to think there's a lot more cultural at play. How women have been treated and viewed historically isn't something easy to shake off. For a not insubstantial chunk of history, women's largest perceived value was their ability to bear children (especially sons) for men. Oh, they're also useful for cooking and cleaning... what else are they gonna do when they aren't providing sexual services to their effective owners? It's just common sense to multi-task.

Of course that's an exaggeration. But there's a core of truth in there - the value of a woman for a very long part of human history was in her ability to bear children for her man. Not in anything implicit in her as a person, but in her loins. Women were pretty much objects for procreation... not full persons in and of themselves.

I have an alternate theory that may be worth exploring. Or not. I really don't know how much water it holds at all.

It could be that women just find it easier to find casual sex than men do* and that, as a result, they have less need of sexual services as an alternative. This presupposes that the majority of people purchasing sexual services would prefer actual sex and I'm not sure that holds up either.



*This is a popular theory. I have no idea if it's true.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:54 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Would you pay money specifically to go ogle eye candy? Would your friends? I don't in the slightest deny the visual portion of female sexuality but it seems there's not as much money in it as there is male sexuality.

There are more strip clubs for men, more male orientated porn, more male orientated prostitution services for men and more ladies used decoratively at events than men.

My suspicion is that men, in general, are more likely to indulge in paying for the chance to look at the female form than women are and that, like most things, it's on a bell curve, or, rather, two overlapping ones.

I do not know if this tendency is biological or cultural. Perhaps men merely feel more empowered to spend their money on this or perhaps women aren't so stupid as to spend money on such things or perhaps there are other factors in play.

If there is no gender related difference in how sexuality is driven, and I'm very open to that idea, then I'd be interested in the alternative explanations for why there is such a disparity in the availability of sexual services. Given that commerce in general and the sex industry in particular really doesn't respond to social taboos if there's profit to be made. My assumption is that such enterprises aimed at ladies simply don't have the size of market of the male orientated things but this only an assumption, the reality is I don't know.
You've been pretty bang on this entire thread and I really wish I had more time to spend here helping you argue your points.

Saying that, please don't forget about these poor guys, I'm sure the white knights trying to stamp out exploitation of the F1 girls will take up their cause too :

NSFW

http://www.newnownext.com/men-of-cur...hotos/02/2014/

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/3612028...autologin=true

https://www.outsports.com/2016/2/23/...swimsuit-issue

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/4642...autologin=true

tons more here...https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1....0.LO9hgs_Yi2Y
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Old 9th February 2018, 01:58 AM   #344
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I think that Emily's Cat and 3point14 have both raised some good points.

I think it's also worth considering that (rightly or wrongly) perceived differences in the tastes of men and women have lead to their respective markets being served differently, men are generally considered to want immediate, visual stimulus whereas it was long the belief that women were biologically driven to want romance and were catered for through bodice rippers and daytime soaps. This also served 'disguise' the product at a time when women's spending was likely to be scrutinised (as the household spending) whereas men were more likely to be able to buy basically whatever they wanted. The fact that the beginning of changes in attitude regarding pay and opportunities for women lead to the popularity of the Chippendales suggests that certainly some women wanted eye candy too!
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:55 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Nor, you'll notice, was there any of the advertising many in this thread are claiming.
Well I can't see any advertising. Anyway, I'm off for a Heineken.
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:09 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
Well I can't see any advertising. Anyway, I'm off for a Heineken.
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Old 9th February 2018, 05:25 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I have an alternate theory that may be worth exploring. Or not. I really don't know how much water it holds at all.

It could be that women just find it easier to find casual sex than men do* and that, as a result, they have less need of sexual services as an alternative. This presupposes that the majority of people purchasing sexual services would prefer actual sex and I'm not sure that holds up either.
Another for your posts.

If the highlight were the case, there must be a reason for it. It could be as simple as "men have lower standards" or whatever, there are probably a combination of reasons. I'm in the camp of "it is based in biological differences between the sexes" for the reasons I've already stated and the articles I linked to.
I think there has always been some conflict between male and female interests, because of this. How you could go about remedying or minimizing this "conflict", is beyond me, but there must be ways.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:19 PM   #348
Emily's Cat
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I think there are two (at least) issues all wrapped up in this, and I'd like to tease them out a bit. The two issues that I see here are 1) sexuality and 2) relationships. Those aren't necessarily the same thing. And for a good long while, they were recognized as being separate for men... but were implicitly paired for women.

This may not be the case in other parts of the world, but I think it's pretty true for most of Europe, and thus has significant bleed-over into the Americas.

Consider, for a moment, the emphasis on virginity and purity in women, especially with respect to marriage. The sexual revolution has reduced that somewhat, but there's still a pretty solid social tendency to view sexually enthusiastic women as "sluts" and to look down on them. That same doesn't hold true for men - even during time periods where there was lip service given to no sex before marriage for anyone, that wasn't particularly well-enforced for men. It wasn't uncommon for men to seek sexual experiences prior to marriage, and in many cases it was accepted if not spoken of.

I think this ends up being part of the cliche about men and women wanting different things from both sexual encounters and marriage. Now, I'll grant that on the whole it's probably more difficult for women to achieve sexual satisfaction than for men to do so... and that this might contribute to women being more selective in their partners.

But when it comes to relationships, once past college, I've never run across any real difference between what men and women want from a relationship. It seems like we mostly want the same things - someone we can trust, communicate with, share our lives with, and so on. Oh, and preferably someone good in bed. I don't see that men want something different than women in that regard.

So I end up thinking that the different expectation of behavior by gender is a lot more socially driven than biological. Not 100% at either end, of course. I think this ends up being especially true when you think about objectification and "sex sells" as a truism. We've got a lot of history of women being eye-candy for men, not (imo) because men have any inherent difference in desire for or reaction to eye-candy... but because it's socially acceptable and expected for men to seek sexual encounters and titillation... where it's still somewhat frowned upon for women to do so.

Although I think that's changing. Because seriously, Jason Momoa's success as an actor isn't really about his Oscar winning character portrayals. That man is just beautiful. And judging by the number of conversations I've had over the last couple of days... Mr. Momoa might find his "worlds hottest man" title seriously challenged by the flag-bearer for Tonga! I mean, seriously... just **drool**.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:45 AM   #349
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
It is - provided that occupation exists. We no longer employ people to walk in front of cars with a red flag, because the role is no longer needed or wanted. If I want to fulfil that role, should people be forced to employ me?
Actually it never was needed, it was established because of idiot's fear of a new thing. Just like the firing a rocket up to signal the car was going through a crossing. Some people fear new things - most of the time we like to think of them as the village idiots.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:38 PM   #350
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I voted "No". Then again, it makes no difference what anyone votes, because luckily for me (and sadly for the opposing team), that is one of those aspects from our culture that is never going away
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:34 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
We haven't watched F1 in years, not since they neutered the engines.

They didn't neuter the engines.

the current F1 engines are the most technologically advanced they have ever been and are much more powerful than the old ones were.

They are quieter, sure, but noise is wasted energy. They are 1.6litre turbos that generate over 1000bhp! Which is a staggering achievement and I still think it's criminal that F1 hasn't made more noise about how absolutely amazing they are and the general view is they changed from older more powerful ones to newer neutered pathetic hybrid ones.

The past few seasons have brought back some really great racing and the new season promises to be closer still. I'd definitely recommend giving it a watch for a couple of races at least.
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