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Old 5th February 2018, 04:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Incest and resultant birth defects are rife in the UK, and legal. However, as it's not whites who are primarily responsible it's unacceptable to pose any sort of criticism, let alone call it 'sick' or 'twisted'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...-children.html



Some of those avoidable illnesses are truly horrifying.
Just so folks are aware <snip> - incest is not legal anywhere or for anyone in the UK.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rules 0/12.
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Old 5th February 2018, 04:45 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Going back to the statutory rape thing, She's 20 now, less the childbirth last year, less 9 months of pregnancy, I wonder when those birthdays were (mom and infant), it could be the math adds up to 17. Or it could be the other daughters have added information. It should be the girl out on bail or whatever and the father still incarcerated.
Notwithstanding the fact that some reports say that she was 18 when they met again, if she was 20 yesterday (5 Feb 2018), then she was born between 5 Feb 1997 and 4 Feb 1998, so her 18th birthday would be between 5 Feb 2015 and 4 Feb 2016. Basically for her to be 17 in 2016 - the stated year that they reunited - she would have had to have been born between 1 Jan and 4 Feb 1998, and to have had sex between 1 Jan and 3 Feb 2016. Possible, but unlikely.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:02 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, their baby presumably. His other children too.
Yes but the baby seems healthy and we don't criminalize obviously genetically unwise sexual relationships, like between two people with achondroplasia. Until we criminalize more genetically unfit relationships it seems hard to justify this.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:07 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I just feel like parents have a special responsibility to their own children that doesn't apply to other people. The responsibility includes not *********** them even if you want to.
But does adoption change that?
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:22 AM   #45
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And just so 'folks are aware'
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
first cousin marriage is classified as incest in almost half US states. More pertinently, focusing on the local terminology is a typical way of avoiding having to address the facts.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just so folks are aware <snip> incest is not legal anywhere or for anyone in the UK.
Then explain the royal family.


Edited by Loss Leader:  Quote edited to conform.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:32 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Then explain the royal family.
Mostly German.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know this is functionally the "Why gays shouldn't marry" argument almost word for word right?

It's gross, it's immoral, won't somebody think of the children...
Puppycow does have one point, though: the father should've considered the potential damage to his family. It's a dumb decision, but I don't have an opinion on the relationship beyond that.
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
-Grooming of minors and childhood sexual abuse is disturbingly <more common than it should be>.
-It's also really hard to catch.
-There's fair reason to think that sexual attraction between family members beginning suddenly and spontaneously after the younger reaches legal adulthood is far more rare than sexual relationships created by grooming by a family member with authority over some period of time.

I think you've outlined the reasoning behind incest laws for two otherwise consenting adults (with a clarification of the word "common"). An incestuous relationship in adulthood is pretty good evidence that there was probably some abuse of a minor.

In this case, though, the father and daughter didn't know each other when she was a minor. So, there absolutely cannot have been any imposition on a minor by an adult.

What's left? Well, we might say that the woman had been taken advantage of because of the extreme power imbalance between her and her father. But once we get into legislating power imbalances, I think we get into all manner of wacky areas - could we legislate against the rich marrying the poor, or Michael Douglas marrying Catherine Zeta Jones?

The overarching concept is that it isn't the law's place to force people to make good decisions.
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:15 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Then explain the royal family.
???
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:22 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Incest and resultant birth defects are rife in the UK, and legal. However, as it's not whites who are primarily responsible it's unacceptable to pose any sort of criticism, let alone call it 'sick' or 'twisted'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...-children.html

Quote:
Medical data previously suggested that while British Pakistanis were responsible for 3 per cent of all births, they accounted for 30 per cent of British children born with a genetic illness.
Some of those avoidable illnesses are truly horrifying.
What you quote contradicts your claim. There is no mention of the scale of births with genetic illnesses across the country as a whole, but certainly if British Pakastanis are accounting for 30%, they are by definition not "primarily responsible." Why they may very well have greater prevalence, it is non-British Pakistanis who are accounting for the majority.
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Old 5th February 2018, 07:30 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The overarching concept is that it isn't the law's place to force people to make good decisions.
It seems to do that a lot in the case of drugs. Personally, I'm against that sort of paternalism, but what else are prohibitions on recreational drugs other than an attempt to prevent people from making bad decisions.
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Old 5th February 2018, 07:42 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And just so 'folks are aware',
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
first cousin marriage is classified as incest in almost half US states. More pertinently, focusing on the local terminology is a typical way of avoiding having to address the facts.
Just to reaffirm that the Baron was incorrect about the matter of incest and the UK in regards to the article he linked to. That article does not in any way at all support his claim that incest is legal in the UK. Just to be quite clear incest is illegal in the UK, the country to which the article he linked to was reporting on.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And just so 'folks are aware'
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
first cousin marriage is classified as incest in almost half US states.

Well apparently adultery is still a criminal offense in a lot of states in the US. Filthy barbarians.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:29 AM   #55
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Adultery doesn't normally result in agonising and fatal illnesses, at least not if you do it right.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Puppycow does have one point, though: the father should've considered the potential damage to his family.
Not really.

This is basically the "I'm not judging you, I'm judging you for not realizing that other people are going to judge you." argument.

And again this is the same argument used against inter-racial and homosexual marriages. "Oh I have no problem with it, but have you considered what the kids will go through?"

I'm sure plenty of kids had a rough time because people had a problem with their parents interracial or homosexual marriages.

"Society disagrees with this and will take it out on your kids" is just using the kids as a hostage to an argument.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Incest and resultant birth defects are rife in the UK, and legal. However, as it's not whites who are primarily responsible it's unacceptable to pose any sort of criticism, let alone call it 'sick' or 'twisted'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...-children.html
As was pointed out, it was not 'primarily' non-whites. Yes, in a particular Muslim community in one British town (where that population had come from a particular region of Pakistan), the level of recessive diseases was higher than normal. It is appropriate to suggest remedies, though of course some people used it as an opportunity for an attack on Muslims, Pakistanis, or even immigrants in general. However, the level of consanguinity was comparable to that of the British Royal Family, and of certain parts of Northern Ireland.

Not all Muslims endorse first cousin marriages, and other religions are equally relaxed about them.
Quote:

Some of those avoidable illnesses are truly horrifying.
Indeed they are, which is why genetic counselling can help. In fact, according to Adam Rutherford, in his book A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived, in many Islamic cultures, imams are trained to offer genetic counselling about the risks of recessive diseases in such circumstances.

First cousin marriages almost double the risk of a recessive disease, compared with unrelated parents, but that's a low number to start with. It's similar to the risk when the mother is over 41.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:38 AM   #58
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It should be noted that here in the states dwarfism, Angelman Syndrome, and Severe Combined Immunodeficiency are rampant in the Amish communities and similar genetic disorder statistical clustering is also found in the Mennonite and Hutterite communities.

It's not "white" or "non-whites" it's extremely insular communities drawing from a lower variable pool of genetic variation increasing the odds.
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Old 5th February 2018, 10:14 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Adultery doesn't normally result in agonising and fatal illnesses, at least not if you do it right.
Oh, okay then. I guess that makes the fact that adultery is a criminal offense even more jarring then, or something.
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Old 5th February 2018, 11:44 AM   #60
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I don't see the point of talking about the obligations of parenthood. He may be her father, but he wasn't her daddy.

There's probably an argument for a state interest in regulating reproduction between first-order blood relatives, but I kind of doubt that's the issue for most people. I found out my sister was my biological half-sister when I was in my 20s, and I'm not even from North Carolina. My first thought wasn't to recalculate her genetic proximity and reconsider reproductive prospects. Dude, gross, shut up. She's my sister.

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Old 5th February 2018, 11:47 AM   #61
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[Sam and Mitch have learned that they are half-brothers]

Mitch: Hey, hey! Hey, you remember in 5th grade when I was under the monkey bars and I sneaked a peek at your sister's underwear? Remember that? Hey, no no! I was sneaking a peek at my *own* sister's underwear!

Sam: That's right! Yeah, and then remember in the 12th grade, you had sex with her?

Mitch: [short awkward silence] Okay, enough reminiscing.
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Old 5th February 2018, 12:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Adultery doesn't normally result in agonising and fatal illnesses, at least not if you do it right.
May I suggest you read about syphilis, HIV, HSV, HPV.
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Old 5th February 2018, 01:03 PM   #63
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The noise of the bottom of the barrel being scraped is deafening.
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Old 5th February 2018, 01:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not really.

This is basically the "I'm not judging you, I'm judging you for not realizing that other people are going to judge you." argument.

And again this is the same argument used against inter-racial and homosexual marriages. "Oh I have no problem with it, but have you considered what the kids will go through?"

I'm sure plenty of kids had a rough time because people had a problem with their parents interracial or homosexual marriages.

"Society disagrees with this and will take it out on your kids" is just using the kids as a hostage to an argument.
That's not a valid analogy, IMHO.

In this case, his daughters first learned that their new housemate was their refound older (half?)sister, and now they have to say "mommy" to her?
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Old 5th February 2018, 01:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
In this case, his daughters first learned that their new housemate was their refound older (half?)sister, and now they have to say "mommy" to her?

Full sister, according to the article. The father and the mother were the parents of the older daughter (whom they gave up for adoption) and the two other children.

Everything about this case is bizarre.
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Old 5th February 2018, 01:33 PM   #66
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Old 5th February 2018, 01:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Oh, I'm in total agreement. Two people getting married have their own responsibility regarding disease, genes, etc.

Growing up, I always heard that people had to have a blood check before they could get a marriage license. My wife and I went to the county clerk office, and were told that they didn't do that anymore.

The state should have NO INTEREST in someone's body unless they are a danger to others.
Sigh. The blood test was for syphilis, which can cause terrible birth defects. The test has been eliminated because syphilis is so rare these days.
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Old 5th February 2018, 02:24 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Then explain the royal family.
If you're making the objection, maybe you should define what you're objecting to. I'm not aware of any proven incest in the Royal Family for a very long time.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 5th February 2018 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 5th February 2018, 03:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
If you're making the objection, maybe you should define what you're objecting to. I'm not aware of any proven incest in the Royal Family for a very long time.
The Ptolomy's however... When your family tree is more of a ladder.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hopefully the girl is being held to try to sort out when the father started having sex with her.
Held by the police? How does that make sense?

She might be a victim, so we need to treat her like even more of a criminal?
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
[Sam and Mitch have learned that they are half-brothers]

Mitch: Hey, hey! Hey, you remember in 5th grade when I was under the monkey bars and I sneaked a peek at your sister's underwear? Remember that? Hey, no no! I was sneaking a peek at my *own* sister's underwear!

Sam: That's right! Yeah, and then remember in the 12th grade, you had sex with her?

Mitch: [short awkward silence] Okay, enough reminiscing.
My favorite:

Mitch: Where was mom?

Pops: Who do you think was takin' the pictures? (Jack Warden at his best)
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:47 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
My favorite:

Mitch: Where was mom?

Pops: Who do you think was takin' the pictures? (Jack Warden at his best)
Kathy: Wait you guys are brothers?
Mitch: *Holds his hands up to explain* It's a long story...
Sam: *Leans in* My dad boned his mom.
Mitch: *Beat* Okay, it's a short story.
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:52 PM   #73
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I'd like more details before forming an opinion on this particular case. To say it does seem rather strange that a young woman goes looking for her father and then ends up in a sexual relationship with him is an understatement.

To the bigger picture, would seem inadvertent incest may be becoming more of an issue because of the number of parents that split up etc. and then biological siblings meeting as strangers. But it must surely still be a very rare thing?
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:59 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'd like more details before forming an opinion on this particular case. To say it does seem rather strange that a young woman goes looking for her father and then ends up in a sexual relationship with him is an understatement.

To the bigger picture, would seem inadvertent incest may be becoming more of an issue because of the number of parents that split up etc. and then biological siblings meeting as strangers. But it must surely still be a very rare thing?
I've never read it, but here you go:

https://www.amazon.com/Kiss-Memoir-K.../dp/0812979710
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Old 5th February 2018, 05:59 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To the bigger picture, would seem inadvertent incest may be becoming more of an issue because of the number of parents that split up etc. and then biological siblings meeting as strangers. But it must surely still be a very rare thing?
I wonder, in some very specific cases, if adoption trends are as random as we think in the context of how far outside "the group" the child actually goes?

I do wonder how far away; geographically, financially, social bubble, adoptive children on a statistical level really find themselves from their biological parents and when they decide as adults to branch out and form their own social connections this sort of thing is really as much of a "bolt out of the blue" as it seems on the surface in some cases.

How the "numbers" for any of this compare to the overall? Damned I know.
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:49 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well apparently adultery is still a criminal offense in a lot of states in the US. Filthy barbarians.
There are lots of antiquated laws that are still "in the books" so to speak, but are unconstitutional and haven't been prosecuted for decades.

Homosexuality, for one. The Supreme Court overturned a conviction for that years ago. As far as I know, still a law, but any judge would immediately dismiss it.

ETA: I might be misremembering, but I believe it was Texas back in the early 90s. Cops were called for a "disturbance" and found two men having sex. I don't honestly know if Texas legislators eliminated the law, but it isn't prosecutable.
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Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 5th February 2018 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Sigh. The blood test was for syphilis, which can cause terrible birth defects. The test has been eliminated because syphilis is so rare these days.
Sigh. What part of what I posted was oppositional to what you said? I am educated and aware of syphilis. THEY TESTED FOR OTHER THINGS ALSO. This was 1997 in California. The test checked for more than syphilis, and was eliminated because of privacy issues.

I'm aware of the health problems of STDs, please don't condescendingly talk down to me.
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Old 5th February 2018, 06:58 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not really.

This is basically the "I'm not judging you, I'm judging you for not realizing that other people are going to judge you." argument.
That's not what I said. I said damage. It's like when you insult someone until they break down and cry. Sure, it's your right, but I can call you on being a dick.

Quote:
And again this is the same argument used against inter-racial and homosexual marriages.
If you think so then you didn't understand my post at all.
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Old 5th February 2018, 08:58 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
{snip sober assessment of things}
This case is a nightmare of bad facts.
Thank you for a clear headed assessment, in contrast to the rash of emotionally based responses.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just so folks are aware <snip> - incest is not legal anywhere or for anyone in the UK.
Thank you for putting the E into JREF, but what degree of consanguinity is considered incest in the UK? (I ask in sincere curiosity, not playing gotcha).
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Then explain the royal family.
Snark noted, but it appears that the gene pool is being broadened of late, eh what?
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Adultery doesn't normally result in agonising and fatal illnesses, at least not if you do it right.
Thanks for the laugh.
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Everything about this case is bizarre.
Yeah. Understatement of the week.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'd like more details before forming an opinion on this particular case.
That puts you in the minority, as the Conclusion Jumping Olympic team apparently is staging tryouts.

As the father of a daughter (who is now married) this story creeps me out. As my wife succinctly put it: glad we aren't dealing with stuff like this.
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Old 5th February 2018, 09:50 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
May I suggest you read about syphilis, HIV, HSV, HPV.
Don't forget lead poisoning.
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