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Old 5th February 2018, 10:11 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
There are lots of antiquated laws that are still "in the books" so to speak, but are unconstitutional and haven't been prosecuted for decades.

Homosexuality, for one. The Supreme Court overturned a conviction for that years ago. As far as I know, still a law, but any judge would immediately dismiss it.

ETA: I might be misremembering, but I believe it was Texas back in the early 90s. Cops were called for a "disturbance" and found two men having sex. I don't honestly know if Texas legislators eliminated the law, but it isn't prosecutable.
It was 2003.
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Old 5th February 2018, 10:12 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Don't forget lead poisoning.
Who would want to poison lead?
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Old 6th February 2018, 06:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Thank you for putting the E into JREF, but what degree of consanguinity is considered incest in the UK? (I ask in sincere curiosity, not playing gotcha).
First cousin marriage is legal in the UK, any closer blood relationship wouldn't be. The practice was popular amount the upper classes but really declined in popularity from the late C18 and would be considered pretty odd by most British people today.

The issue hit the headlines a few years back due (as Baron's link illustrated) spikes of genetic issues in areas where the practice was more prevalent among immigrant communities, concerns about it tied in with concern about other issues surrounding immigration. For example one person immigrating then bringing in their family as dependents then going back to their home village to get a bride and then bringing over their family etc.. Forced marriages for the purpose of immigration, the degree to which the practice of going back to the ancestral home to get a spouse led to the importation of people who didn't know English or British culture and if this contributed to forming cultural ghettos, and, of course(!), the cost to the NHS. There were conversations to be had about these concerns of course but they were also sensationalised and used for right wing flat waving.
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Old 6th February 2018, 06:19 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who would want to poison lead?
Lex Luthor? Superman?
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I might be misremembering, but I believe it was Texas back in the early 90s. Cops were called for a "disturbance" and found two men having sex. I don't honestly know if Texas legislators eliminated the law, but it isn't prosecutable.

The fantastically-named Bowers v. hardwick upheld Georgia sodomy laws as they applied to homosexuals, while excepting married couples (who, technically, still fit under the broad wording of the law). 17 years later, the texas case, Lawrence v. Texas, found sodomy laws unconstitutional. Wherever they remain "on the books," they're invalid and unenforceable.


Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Snark noted, but it appears that the gene pool is being broadened of late, eh what?

It's broader than that. Harry is very likely not Charles' son - a fact nobody in the royal family seems too invested in establishing.
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:25 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
. ... the bigger picture, would seem inadvertent incest may be becoming more of an issue because of the number of parents that split up etc. and then biological siblings meeting as strangers. But it must surely still be a very rare thing?
I had a friend who found out years later she had dated her brother in high school ... there was three siblings that were fostered out or adopted to three separate families ... no attempt was made to separate them geographically
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:31 AM   #87
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Did the father know it was his daughter when the relationship started? Did we cover that?
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:42 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did the father know it was his daughter when the relationship started? Did we cover that?
Yes. The daughter reconnected with both parents and moved in to their house, then subsequently the parents' relationship broke down and the wife moved out.
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Old 6th February 2018, 09:23 AM   #89
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Huh.
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Old 6th February 2018, 05:20 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Yes. The daughter reconnected with both parents and moved in to their house, then subsequently the parents' relationship broke down and the wife moved out.
This is either an episode of COPS, a really tacky SNL skit, or an indie drama starring Jennifer Lawrence. As the mom.
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's broader than that. Harry is very likely not Charles' son - a fact nobody in the royal family seems too invested in establishing.
A simple blood test sorts that out, doesn't it?
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:21 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
A simple blood test sorts that out, doesn't it?
Indeed. If Harry has blood, he's most likely not related to Charles. If instead he's stuffed with mothballs and dust, he's definitely Charles's son.
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's broader than that. Harry is very likely not Charles' son - a fact nobody in the royal family seems too invested in establishing.
Is the going theory it still being that Army Captain that claimed/admitted to an affair with Diana at about the right time frame?
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Old 6th February 2018, 09:20 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
A simple blood test sorts that out, doesn't it?

It would, but the participants would have to agree to it, something they would never do.
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Old 6th February 2018, 10:43 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It would, but the participants would have to agree to it, something they would never do.
Charles might, if you convinced him that giving a blood sample would dilute his remaining blood supply, thereby making it stronger via the principles of homeopathy.
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:38 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the going theory it still being that Army Captain that claimed/admitted to an affair with Diana at about the right time frame?
Iíd be surprised if the Royal Family didnít know for certain. I also wouldnít be surprised if Charles is the father; brothers donít always look alike, nor do they necessarily take after their dad.
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Old 6th February 2018, 11:47 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Iíd be surprised if the Royal Family didnít know for certain. I also wouldnít be surprised if Charles is the father; brothers donít always look alike, nor do they necessarily take after their dad.
The tragedy is that both boys actually are Charles's sons. They look more like him every year. Which is extremely sad, because they were both quite handsome. Ever see pictures of Elizabeth when she was young? She was quite a beauty. To quote the philosopher B.B. Rodriguez, Father Time took a baseball bat to that family. Even Charles, when young, wasn't entirely hideous. And Harry does look somewhat like Charles did at his age. There's no scandalous backstory, just a family of people who live very long lives but don't age well at all.

I imagine William may regret his origins every time he sees a mirror now, or feels the cruel cold touch of the wind upon his vulnerable scalp.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
First cousin marriage is legal in the UK, any closer blood relationship wouldn't be. The practice was popular amount the upper classes but really declined in popularity from the late C18 and would be considered pretty odd by most British people today.

The issue hit the headlines a few years back due (as Baron's link illustrated) spikes of genetic issues in areas where the practice was more prevalent among immigrant communities, concerns about it tied in with concern about other issues surrounding immigration. For example one person immigrating then bringing in their family as dependents then going back to their home village to get a bride and then bringing over their family etc.. Forced marriages for the purpose of immigration, the degree to which the practice of going back to the ancestral home to get a spouse led to the importation of people who didn't know English or British culture and if this contributed to forming cultural ghettos, and, of course(!), the cost to the NHS. There were conversations to be had about these concerns of course but they were also sensationalised and used for right wing flat waving.
The problem is not that of a single cousin marriage, but that the tradition of cousin marriage within small groups defined by locality / occupation / caste dates back centuries. Cousin marriages may be of double cousins, ie cousins on maternal and paternal sides. Grandparents may be cousins etc. So there is a very restricted genetic pool over a very long period. Many of the genetic mutations are unique, they would never present as an illness except for the restricted gene pool.

Common recessive genetic abnormalities include cystic fibrosis, sickle cell disease, thalasaemia, haemachromatosis most of these occur in people with no co-sanguinity because the mutations are very common. It is not true that genetic disorders are principally caused by incest.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
There are lots of antiquated laws that are still "in the books" so to speak, but are unconstitutional and haven't been prosecuted for decades.
Yes but does this apply to adultery? They were, according to the news article, both charged with not just incest but also adultery and "contributing to delinquency".

I'd assume that if one such an offense was unconstitutional one wouldn't be charged with it.

In any case, the fact that such laws have not be repelled shows that American law does not keep up with social mores. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to laws that deem cousin marriage illegal.
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Old 7th February 2018, 07:52 AM   #100
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Actually, I'd never thought about it but it actually seems slightly odd to me that Adultery is a criminal offence, rather than a civil matter - usually as part of a divorce process.

Checking Wiki explains that the US is something of a standout in the industrialised west in retaining laws against adultery.
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Old 7th February 2018, 07:53 AM   #101
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Serves to show how much people love to control each other's sexuality.
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:08 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
First cousin marriage is legal in the UK, any closer blood relationship wouldn't be. The practice was popular amount the upper classes but really declined in popularity from the late C18 and would be considered pretty odd by most British people today.
Later than that, and by no means an upper class thing. For example, H.G. Wells married his cousin in 1891.
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:09 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Harry is very likely not Charles' son - a fact nobody in the royal family seems too invested in establishing.
Nonsense.
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:20 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Nonsense.


You can't know it's nonsense. Just as LL can't know it's true.


Looking at the pictures, it certainly cannot be ruled out that Harry is not, genetically, a Saxe-Coburg.

I'm sure he wouldn't be the first son of a prince that wasn't actually the son of the prince.
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:30 AM   #105
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Short of taking a DNA test there is no objective means of determining who Harrys father is. But one cannot help but notice the
greater facial similarity between him and James Hewitt. William looks like Charles but Harry doesnt look like like either of them
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Old 7th February 2018, 11:36 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
Short of taking a DNA test there is no objective means of determining who Harrys father is. But one cannot help but notice the
greater facial similarity between him and James Hewitt. William looks like Charles but Harry doesnt look like like either of them

For me, it's a slam dunk. There's no way that man is Charles' son but I'm aware enough of the limits of my knowledge to know that this is a hunch or a suspicion. There's no way anyone can know short of a DNA test, and that's never, ever going to happen.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:27 PM   #107
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Hewitt has claimed that Harry can not be his son because he was already born before he began his affair with Diana
[ Harry was born in 84 and the affair lasted from 86 - 91 ] But this doesnt conclusively rule him out being the father
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You can't know it's nonsense. Just as LL can't know it's true.

Looking at the pictures, it certainly cannot be ruled out that Harry is not, genetically, a Saxe-Coburg.
Looking at the pictures, it is clear that the features people foolishly attribute to James Hewitt (despite the fact he didn't meet - let alone pork - Diana until after Harry was born) actually come from his mother's side, as anyone who has seen her brother will confirm.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:39 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Looking at the pictures, it is clear that the features people foolishly attribute to James Hewitt (despite the fact he didn't meet - let alone pork - Diana until after Harry was born) actually come from his mother's side, as anyone who has seen her brother will confirm.

I've seen her brother. I've seen her husband, her son and her. I've looked at the dates. Bottom line is, I don't know. Neither do you. She did, but she's dead.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:42 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I've seen her brother. I've seen her husband, her son and her. I've looked at the dates. Bottom line is, I don't know. Neither do you. She did, but she's dead.
She would know if it was possible or definitely one or the other, though it is equally possible that she truely didn't know.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:46 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
She would know if it was possible or definitely one or the other, though it is equally possible that she truely didn't know.

Good point, well made.
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Old 7th February 2018, 12:50 PM   #112
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The whole Harry gossip thing cracks me up. Who cares?

And Harry can be a bit of an idiot (Well could be, as he seems to have matured now), but he ain't stupid.

The gossip about his parentage has been going on since he was a little kid. I would be extremely surprised if he hadn't actually had the tests himself privately, and confirmed things for himself
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Old 7th February 2018, 01:20 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Don't forget lead poisoning.
As in the "lead in your pencil"?

What's missing from this discussion is understanding of genetic sexual attraction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

The theory is that we're genetically programmed to be attracted to people we share of lot of genetic material with, so when people who are closely related genetically have been separated for a long time, being sexually attracted to each other is natural.

Here is an interesting article about one woman's experience:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-...love-with-dad/
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Old 7th February 2018, 02:44 PM   #114
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I'll also note that child marriage is legal throughout much of the US. Even when it comes to teenagers close to adulthood, marrying young is not something that should be encouraged. Study after study has shown that it has a deleterious effect on both the young parents, especially the wife, and wider society. Moreover in most cases it's not done willingly by the minor and instead they are pressured into it by their parents.

If prohibiting incestuous sexual relations between adults was motivated primarily, if not exclusively, because of its negative consequences on society or whatnot then I'd expect the same kind of reasoning lying behind other laws.
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Old 7th February 2018, 03:01 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'll also note that child marriage is legal throughout much of the US. Even when it comes to teenagers close to adulthood, marrying young is not something that should be encouraged. Study after study has shown that it has a deleterious effect on both the young parents, especially the wife, and wider society. Moreover in most cases it's not done willingly by the minor and instead they are pressured into it by their parents.

If prohibiting incestuous sexual relations between adults was motivated primarily, if not exclusively, because of its negative consequences on society or whatnot then I'd expect the same kind of reasoning lying behind other laws.
I, for one, do not expect reason and consistency in our laws.
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:46 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
It's broader than that. Harry is very likely not Charles' son - a fact nobody in the royal family seems too invested in establishing.
What makes you think that this is "very likely"? I can't imagine what evidence you could have to base it on.
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:50 AM   #117
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As far as consenting adults having incestuous sex... I really can't think of a good reason for that to be illegal. And I haven't seen one on this thread.

It is clear to me that most people who want it to be illegal start with "It's gross and icky" and then search for reasons to support that opinion, rather than the other way around.

Personally I don't seek to control the behaviours of consenting adults who are doing no harm to anybody. So if you want to bang your daughter, and she wants to be banged, go for it. I don't care.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:00 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
Short of taking a DNA test there is no objective means of determining who Harrys father is. But one cannot help but notice the greater facial similarity between him and James Hewitt. William looks like Charles but Harry doesnt look like like either of them
My sister has three sons. Two of them look very similar to each other, and very much like their father. The third looks different; he looks very much like my father (after whom, coincidentally, he is named). I'm as sure as I can be of anything that they all have the same father. Genetics is more complex than you might think; even those simple rules you might have learnt at school about a child with brown eyes being impossible if both parents have blue eyes turn out to be wrong.

As it turns out, Harry also looks very much like his uncle, Diana's brother.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:39 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
My sister has three sons. Two of them look very similar to each other, and very much like their father. The third looks different; he looks very much like my father (after whom, coincidentally, he is named). I'm as sure as I can be of anything that they all have the same father. Genetics is more complex than you might think; even those simple rules you might have learnt at school about a child with brown eyes being impossible if both parents have blue eyes turn out to be wrong.

As it turns out, Harry also looks very much like his uncle, Diana's brother.
Agreed. We have a pair of twins in our family that look nothing alike. One looks just like her mother at that age and the other looks like her father's sister at that age. They have different colored hair and eyes and are at least 6 inches different in height as they approach adulthood. You'd be hard pressed to say they were even sisters if you met them, much less twins. Their paternity is not at all questionable.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:03 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Later than that, and by no means an upper class thing. For example, H.G. Wells married his cousin in 1891.
Yeah, that should have been C19, what I typed and the actual information I was thinking we're two different things... Fun fact to know and tell - Darwin was married to his cousin too.
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