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Old 8th February 2018, 12:48 PM   #1
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University punishes frat for big love.

Puritanical liberalism strikes again. Regulation of sexual promiscuity of consenting parties?

Quote:
The rules were simple: Would-be brothers allegedly earned points for having sex with overweight women. If there was a tie at the end, the victory went to whoever had slept with the heaviest woman. New members were told not to inform the women about the contest, according to a university report.

Quote:
The fraternity chapter has been put on a two-year probation, and the Ivy League university and the fraternity’s national office denounced the game, the latest example of a Greek organization behaving badly.

The board said the chapter violated university rules about Greek organizations that prohibits “sexually abusive behavior on the part of its members.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8a700b92501b

Thoughts?
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:52 PM   #2
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My worry would be, should the Affidavit for Genuine Sexual Attraction be signed before or after the Consent for Progression of the Sexual Act?
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:53 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Puritanical liberalism strikes again. Regulation of sexual promiscuity of consenting parties?






https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8a700b92501b

Thoughts?
Frat guys being typical frat asses.

Sorry, but this is hardly big news to me,
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:58 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Puritanical liberalism strikes again. Regulation of sexual promiscuity of consenting parties?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8a700b92501b

Thoughts?
The key word there is 'consenting'. Part of consent is the principle of disclosure. Would the woman have consented if she was informed about the purpose of the date? Probably not, right?

Communities are allowed to set their own moral standards, last I heard (part of freedom of association). Looks like the fraternity decided that an official exercise that involved misrepresentation and humiliated people for their bodies violated the organization's ethics.

Not sure why anybody would have a problem with this.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:02 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The key word there is 'consenting'. Part of consent is the principle of disclosure. Would the woman have consented if she was informed about the purpose of the date? Probably not, right?

Communities are allowed to set their own moral standards, last I heard (part of freedom of association). Looks like the fraternity decided that an official exercise that involved misrepresentation and humiliated people for their bodies violated the organization's ethics.

Not sure why anybody would have a problem with this.
Indeed, who knew that (((fraternities))) were run by puritanical liberals.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 8th February 2018 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Added punctuation after looking up which frat it was.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Puritanical liberalism strikes again.......

Thoughts?
Thoughts? Yeah, sure.

You don't hide your contempt for those who don't see life the same way as you very well, and nor do you even try to justify it. You have not shown that this story has anything to do with puritanism, liberality, or that it has happened before.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
My worry would be, should the Affidavit for Genuine Sexual Attraction be signed before or after the Consent for Progression of the Sexual Act?
You know who worries about this kind of thing?

Guys who don't know how to talk to women.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:23 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Thoughts? Yeah, sure.

You don't hide your contempt for those who don't see life the same way as you very well, and nor do you even try to justify it. You have not shown that this story has anything to do with puritanism, liberality, or that it has happened before.
Sorry, I was trying to be ironic.
Obviously this was terrible and should in no way be condoned.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:27 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Sorry, I was trying to be ironic.
Obviously this was terrible and should in no way be condoned.
This board takes Poe's Law to an almost existential level.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:37 PM   #10
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I'm still very worried about the consent form signage order. Johnny Karate, please respond with detailed instructions on 'how to talk to women', I'm so tired of these precoital paperwork procedures.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm still very worried about the consent form signage order. Johnny Karate, please respond with detailed instructions on 'how to talk to women', I'm so tired of these precoital paperwork procedures.
Sorry, can't help you there. But I'm sure your local community college offers some basic-level communication courses.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The key word there is 'consenting'. Part of consent is the principle of disclosure. Would the woman have consented if she was informed about the purpose of the date? Probably not, right?
I don't think the legal concept of sexual consent extends to the truthfulness of the partner's alleged motives.

You can't charge someone with rape because they didn't really mean it when they said they loved you.

Last edited by theprestige; 8th February 2018 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You know who worries about this kind of thing?

Guys who don't know how to talk to women.
Seems like that would be a lot of people, with a legitimate concern.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
My worry would be, should the Affidavit for Genuine Sexual Attraction be signed before or after the Consent for Progression of the Sexual Act?
Surely you need a continuous issuance of affidavits as the act progresses to ensure consent is still valid?
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think the legal concept of sexual consent extends to the truthfulness of the partner's alleged motives.

You can't charge someone with rape because they didn't really mean it when they said they loved you.
Not yet.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think the legal concept of sexual consent extends to the truthfulness of the partner's alleged motives.
It might, and this case specifically might. The legal premise is False Pretenses, and it's a category of Fraud.

Truthfulness in a relationship is very relevant. False Pretenses can undermine an ex-spouse's demands, for example, if it's clear that the intent of the relationship was to obtain a divorce settlement.

And even before marriage is in the picture, if the intent of the relationship was insincere and the deceptive party obtained a sought value from it (including sex), that can be grounds for damages. Again, the legal term is False Pretenses.

We're all familiar with examples where somebody exaggerates her wealth or status to land a stud. This is something that the guy can pursue legally, but jurisdictions vary with their willingness to do so, and there's always juries to deal with.




Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You can't charge someone with rape because they didn't really mean it when they said they loved you.
Nobody said anything about rape. It would be fraud, and the victims could pursue damages that way. Who knows what a jury would award.



However, the story itself doesn't talk about any crime, so that's just academic. We're talking about a frat enforcing a moral code among its voluntary members.

Just like we have a code at the ISF. Motive might give mods insight into whether or not a rule has been violated. No crime has to be committed for the body we voluntarily joined to be entitled to punish us.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:53 PM   #17
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People have the right to have sex if they want. A fraternity doesn't have the right to the imprimatur of the university.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
People have the right to have sex if they want. A fraternity doesn't have the right to the imprimatur of the university.
And a chapter does not have the right to the imprimatur of the fraternity.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:12 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And a chapter does not have the right to the imprimatur of the fraternity.

Also that.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:15 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Also that.
It seems like the national body of any fraternity is just constantly scanning the headlines for their own name as the very future of their existence depends on attracting young men to a party and then hoping they don't party so hard that they make the news. Such a *********** tight rope balance.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like that would be a lot of people, with a legitimate concern.
Therapy is always an option for them.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:47 PM   #22
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You know who worries about this kind of thing?

Guys who don't know how to talk to women.
"You know who worries about this kind of thing?

Girls who don't know how to talk to men."

See how dumb that sounds?
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:20 PM   #24
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Is there better or worse than people competing to sleep with model-like women?
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Is there better or worse than people competing to sleep with model-like women?
Worse
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:57 PM   #26
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why?
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The key word there is 'consenting'. Part of consent is the principle of disclosure. Would the woman have consented if she was informed about the purpose of the date? Probably not, right?

Communities are allowed to set their own moral standards, last I heard (part of freedom of association). Looks like the fraternity decided that an official exercise that involved misrepresentation and humiliated people for their bodies violated the organization's ethics.

Not sure why anybody would have a problem with this.
Yes, I agree that the frat kids broke the rules under which they placed themselves voluntarily. And if they suffer punishment or even expulsion or along those lines, I say, "good."

Grow up, ya stupid punks.



Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It might, and this case specifically might. The legal premise is False Pretenses, and it's a category of Fraud.

Truthfulness in a relationship is very relevant. False Pretenses can undermine an ex-spouse's demands, for example, if it's clear that the intent of the relationship was to obtain a divorce settlement.

And even before marriage is in the picture, if the intent of the relationship was insincere and the deceptive party obtained a sought value from it (including sex), that can be grounds for damages. Again, the legal term is False Pretenses.

We're all familiar with examples where somebody exaggerates her wealth or status to land a stud. This is something that the guy can pursue legally, but jurisdictions vary with their willingness to do so, and there's always juries to deal with.

Nobody said anything about rape. It would be fraud, and the victims could pursue damages that way. Who knows what a jury would award.

However, the story itself doesn't talk about any crime, so that's just academic. We're talking about a frat enforcing a moral code among its voluntary members.

Just like we have a code at the ISF. Motive might give mods insight into whether or not a rule has been violated. No crime has to be committed for the body we voluntarily joined to be entitled to punish us.
With the idea of fraud, I do actually find it a shame that men who have been lied to and manipulated in order for a woman to have a child (for example, collecting the male's sperm even after condoms are used), are (AFAIU) rarely granted the right to terminate parental rights.

You're right in that these cases are not considered sexual assault (I prefer using this term over 'rape' but that's what I'm referring to) but cases of fraud; I also do understand the court's desire to see to the best interests of the child thus keeping the biological father as a responsible parent so he can pay for the child's upkeep and so on.

It isn't an item on a generalized list of the different states' laws that I quickly Googled, at any rate, though there seems to be several categories which might be successfully argued.

Accidental pregnancies.... I think the way the laws are written now deal well enough with the results. I'm only speaking of cases of deliberate deception or fraud when the wishes of the man to not have children are known (again, such as taking steps to prevent pregnancies and hopefully some discussion).

However, I'm not sure that I'd call what these immature frat boys did 'fraud.'
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:29 PM   #28
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I'm really torn about this case. On the one hand, I think these people were engaging in some pretty darned vile activities. They're cretins. They are horrible people. They demonstrate, far better than many other situations, the moral decay of our society, and why it matters.

But, the fact remains, they are consenting adults, as were their partners. I'm really against any official interference in consensual relationships.

I find myself thinking of a famous line that was never said by Voltaire, "Sir, I disagree with the way you shag, but I will defend to the death your right to shag that way."
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:36 PM   #29
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Turn the tables.
If I were some overweight college dude, and some sorority sisters were trying to get me into bed, I would pretty much be all for it. Wouldnt care why.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
"You know who worries about this kind of thing?

Girls who don't know how to talk to men."

See how dumb that sounds?
Ah yes, the genius rhetorical gambit of taking something some says, altering it to sound stupid, and then claiming that proves the original statement was stupid.

Well played, sir.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm really torn about this case. On the one hand, I think these people were engaging in some pretty darned vile activities. They're cretins. They are horrible people. They demonstrate, far better than many other situations, the moral decay of our society, and why it matters.

But, the fact remains, they are consenting adults, as were their partners. I'm really against any official interference in consensual relationships.

I find myself thinking of a famous line that was never said by Voltaire, "Sir, I disagree with the way you shag, but I will defend to the death your right to shag that way."
Yes, they are consenting adults. Consenting adults who joined a private organization with a code of conduct that they subsequently violated.

This is no different than being held accountable to the HR policies at your place of employment regarding romantic relationships with your co-workers.

I'm not seeing the controversy.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes, they are consenting adults. Consenting adults who joined a private organization with a code of conduct that they subsequently violated.

This is no different than being held accountable to the HR policies at your place of employment regarding romantic relationships with your co-workers.

I'm not seeing the controversy.
(emphasis added)
re:the hilighted

Did they? I honestly don't know. What was in the code? The one article I read about didn't go into that.

ETA: The OP refers to "sexually abusive behaviors", but I am reluctant to apply that phrase to consensual sex of any sort.

ETA2: But I see that the members of the fraternity themselves have condemned some of the people who participated in this "game". I have no objection to fraternities having rules about their own conduct, otherwise they would just be a place to live. In fact, they don't even have to be "rules" or "policies". I have no problem with the frat saying, "We don't like what you did, so we're kicking you out."

Last edited by Meadmaker; 8th February 2018 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(emphasis added)
re:the hilighted

Did they? I honestly don't know. What was in the code? The one article I read about didn't go into that.

ETA: The OP refers to "sexually abusive behaviors", but I am reluctant to apply that phrase to consensual sex of any sort.
Again, it’s a private organization. They are allowed to interpret their own code of conduct in whatever manner they please. Anyone who doesn’t like that is free to leave the organization or not join in the first place.
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Again, it’s a private organization. They are allowed to interpret their own code of conduct in whatever manner they please. Anyone who doesn’t like that is free to leave the organization or not join in the first place.
I agree. (I was putting in an ETA2 while you were posting.) However, on what grounds does the University suspend them?
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Old 8th February 2018, 09:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(emphasis added)
re:the hilighted

Did they? I honestly don't know. What was in the code? The one article I read about didn't go into that.

ETA: The OP refers to "sexually abusive behaviors", but I am reluctant to apply that phrase to consensual sex of any sort.

ETA2: But I see that the members of the fraternity themselves have condemned some of the people who participated in this "game". I have no objection to fraternities having rules about their own conduct, otherwise they would just be a place to live. In fact, they don't even have to be "rules" or "policies". I have no problem with the frat saying, "We don't like what you did, so we're kicking you out."

http://zbt.org/wp-content/uploads/20...a-Beta-Tau.pdf

See 11 e.



My uncle Moishe is going to be rather upset by this... not the least because it's called a "pig roast". ZBT was originally set up for Jews because the old guard landed gentry didn't consider them viable members of the regular Greek organizations, what being all Jewish and stuff. (Don't let the roots fool you, though.... it wasn't simply Jewish, originally, but actually Zionist, albeit the Zionism of the end of the 19th, not 20th century. And they've been as guilty of ******* behavior as any frat brats.)

Ban the lot of 'em. There is absolutely no good in having Greek organizations on campuses.
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

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Old 8th February 2018, 10:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree. (I was putting in an ETA2 while you were posting.) However, on what grounds does the University suspend them?
On the grounds that the code of conduct was violated.

ETA: I think the section to which Foolmewunz referred to covers it.

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Old 8th February 2018, 11:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ban the lot of 'em. There is absolutely no good in having Greek organizations on campuses.
Nonsense, they do a lot of good! Fraternities are second only to the Boy Scouts for giving middle class American boys their first bondage experience! And, like the Boy Scouts, they can always blame the alcohol if they get uncomfortable with how much they enjoyed it.
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Old 9th February 2018, 04:33 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ban the lot of 'em. There is absolutely no good in having Greek organizations on campuses.
From outside the US, they do seem rather suspicious entities. Does any other country have anything similar?
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Old 9th February 2018, 05:32 AM   #39
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My scant knowledge of these things mostly stems from seeing American movies. So why are there such things as "frats" in the first place? What's the point of them?
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Old 9th February 2018, 06:21 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The key word there is 'consenting'. Part of consent is the principle of disclosure. Would the woman have consented if she was informed about the purpose of the date? Probably not, right?
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