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Old 14th February 2018, 08:25 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm having a hard time caring about this. The fact that we find it "icky" to eat euthanized animals doesn't mean it's bad for our pets to do so. I'd be more likely to agree if there were any evidence it was harming pets in any way.
That's too broad an argument. BSE originated with cattle fed dead cattle. I suggest that one of the lessons from that is to not feed dead dogs to dogs.

I got no answer before. What is the source of these dead animals if it isn't pets? Farm animals aren't killed with injections. Nor are horses. What does that leave us.........zoo animals? Anything else?
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:36 AM   #42
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Animal sludge; they basically blast a carcass from which the meat has been removed with water and the sludge that runs off it is collected, processed, mixed with preservatives and bulking agents and labelled as 'animal derivatives'. By law they don't even need to state what animal it comes from.
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That's too broad an argument. BSE originated with cattle fed dead cattle. I suggest that one of the lessons from that is to not feed dead dogs to dogs.

I got no answer before. What is the source of these dead animals if it isn't pets? Farm animals aren't killed with injections. Nor are horses. What does that leave us.........zoo animals? Anything else?
I'm betting it leaves us with the less desirable parts of food animals. Baron talks about "animal sludge" as if it's some horrible poison, but it's not. It's the scraps of protein that are left on the bone after the human-palatable cuts of meat have been removed.

It's sometimes fashionable to admire primitive cultures for "using all of the animal" -- even when it's pretty clear that they did no such thing. Likewise, it's fashionable to condemn an industrial society for doing exactly that.

Protein is protein. You may be grossed out by "pink slime", but that doesn't make it less nutritious. You may be grossed out by it, but your dog isn't. Why not save the (aesthetically) best cut of meat for yourself, and let your dog enjoy the scraps? However they were collected.
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That's too broad an argument. BSE originated with cattle fed dead cattle. I suggest that one of the lessons from that is to not feed dead dogs to dogs.
Yes, but BSE involves an infectious agent where a tiny dose can lead to serious illness. In this case it's more akin to ingesting a poison, where the absolute dose is critical.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I got no answer before. What is the source of these dead animals if it isn't pets? Farm animals aren't killed with injections. Nor are horses. What does that leave us.........zoo animals? Anything else?
It seems to be different in America:

"Methods of Euthanasia in Adult Cattle

Methods recognized as appropriate for euthanasia of cattle are: 1) barbiturates and barbituric acid derivatives (“Acceptable”), gunshot and penetrating captive bolt (“Acceptable with Conditions”)."

But the argument remains - the dogs still wouldn't get a dangerous dose unless they ate an impossible weight of the dog food.
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:58 AM   #45
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Well I agree with you theprestige, but your post doesn't respond to anything in mine. I'm not sure why you quoted it.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yes, but BSE involves an infectious agent where a tiny dose can lead to serious illness.........
BSE, scrapie, and other prion-based brain diseases exist only because of cannibalism. It should be pretty simple to make sure that dog food doesn't contain dead dogs, in the same way as we no longer feed dead cows to cows.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
BSE, scrapie, and other prion-based brain diseases exist only because of cannibalism. It should be pretty simple to make sure that dog food doesn't contain dead dogs, in the same way as we no longer feed dead cows to cows.
I agree, but this case isn't about infection. In this case the dogs supposedly got ill by ingesting a 'poison', so keeping dead dog remains out of dog food seems irrelevant when it can't explain these particular dogs' ailments.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:16 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You know that a thread has jumped the shark when it is mentioned that fried chicken is bad.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
William Parcher will now provide evidence that eating nothing but KFC all one's life is a positive health benefit, a claim so ridiculous it's not even entertained by KFC themselves:
William Parcher clearly made nothing that even resembles the claim you're asking him to justify.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I agree, but this case isn't about infection. In this case the dogs supposedly got ill by ingesting a 'poison', so keeping dead dog remains out of dog food seems irrelevant when it can't explain these particular dogs' ailments.
You've missed the chain of my thought....

Pets being killed with this drug shouldn't end up in the food chain of other pets, and not just because they are full of the drug.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:23 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I once got curious about dogs supposedly being poisoned by people food. So I did a little looking. The Onion thing was ONE dog, a Labrador that ate a 10 pound bag. I think that would kill me too- just from the gas.

Avocados are supposedly poison too- yet here in Avocado Orchard World, I know dogs that patrol the orchards looking for ripe windfalls. Macadamians too. I suspect allergic reactions, or just plain overeating, like the onions. I wonder about the chocolate thing now. It's theophyline acts like caffeine, but again, dosage? A five pound block perchance?

Dogs are omnivores, like us. Generally people food is NOT deadly to them.
My understanding on chocolate is that it is large quantities that are dangerours to dogs. However, it is not unheard of for a dog to chow down on a pound or so of baking chocolate, and that can be lethal. Tossing a dog an occasional bit of chocolate candy is certainly not the healthiest thing for them, but it's not going to do them serious harm either.
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Old 14th February 2018, 09:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm betting it leaves us with the less desirable parts of food animals. Baron talks about "animal sludge" as if it's some horrible poison, but it's not. It's the scraps of protein that are left on the bone after the human-palatable cuts of meat have been removed.

It's sometimes fashionable to admire primitive cultures for "using all of the animal" -- even when it's pretty clear that they did no such thing. Likewise, it's fashionable to condemn an industrial society for doing exactly that.

Protein is protein. You may be grossed out by "pink slime", but that doesn't make it less nutritious. You may be grossed out by it, but your dog isn't. Why not save the (aesthetically) best cut of meat for yourself, and let your dog enjoy the scraps? However they were collected.
If you've ever had dogs, you know that they will happily chow down on stuff that people can't eat: gristle, tendons, ligaments, whatever they can gnaw off of a bone. I have even seen dogs greedily gobble down trimmings from horse hooves. I strongly suspect that this is the foundation of the relationship between people and dogs: Wolves started following people around and scavenging their leftovers. Eventually, some people started bringing cubs (maybe an orphaned litter) into their homes, and the rest is history. That being the case, I'm not too concerned with "meat by-products" being on the ingredient list of dog food.

As for the linked article: While I find the presence of pentabarbitol, and the possibility that some dog food companies may be using questionable sources of food to be of concern, I find the opening anectdote to be less than credible. It is a hell of a reach from traces of pentabarbitol being detected in dog food to there being sufficient levels to cause illness and death.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:05 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well I agree with you theprestige, but your post doesn't respond to anything in mine. I'm not sure why you quoted it.
Because I thought I was answering your question about where the animal protein in pet food is supposed to come from. You listed a few different options, but omitted one of the two which I think is most likely (the other one is seafood). Then I went on to briefly discuss some ideas about getting protein for humans and for pets from the same animal, tying it back to baron's mention of "animal sludge". Sorry if my train of thought wasn't clear.

Last edited by theprestige; 14th February 2018 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:06 AM   #53
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I suggest GlennB go back and read the post William Parcher was responding to, where I clearly stated that the health disadvantages come from eating KFC every day for life. Then he can come back here and apologise, along with William Parcher, for the absurd straw man claiming I said fried chicken is "bad".

And theprestige should acknowledge that I never referred to animal sludge as some kind of poison. I said that some dog foods are little better than poison (and, re the topic of this thread, some contain literal poison) and that is correct. Now he may want to make the straw man that I'm comparing some dog foods with rat poison or cyanide, so it's good to bear in mind that some poisons have long-term cumulative negative effects, just like many dog food ingredients have been scientifically proven to do. Also, "protein is protein" is a strange thing to say, seeing that a) there are significant difference between the quality, grades and digestibility of various proteins, in humans and in dogs, and b) the protein content of a food does not in itself say very much about its health benefits.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And theprestige should acknowledge that I never referred to animal sludge as some kind of poison. I said that some dog foods are little better than poison (and, re the topic of this thread, some contain literal poison) and that is correct. Now he may want to make the straw man that I'm comparing some dog foods with rat poison or cyanide, so it's good to bear in mind that some poisons have long-term cumulative negative effects, just like many dog food ingredients have been scientifically proven to do. Also, "protein is protein" is a strange thing to say, seeing that a) there are significant difference between the quality, grades and digestibility of various proteins, in humans and in dogs, and b) the protein content of a food does not in itself say very much about its health benefits.
Enh. Typical motte-and-bailey defense. You're happy enough to use scare words like "almost poison" and "animal sludge" together to create an impression that such and such pet food is evil. It's only when someone gets the impression you set out to create, and tries to refute it, that you back off to a much weaker claim. I'm not that interested in trying to tease out each separate thread of your rant and address it narrowly without context. If you don't want me to read your reference to "animal sludge" as a strong condemnation--"almost poison"--then don't include it in your strong condemnation.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:19 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It is a hell of a reach from traces of pentabarbitol being detected in dog food to there being sufficient levels to cause illness and death.
I kind of had the same thought. The linked article from the OP states that Phenobarbital is "not permitted at any concentration". That sounds good at first, but modern chemical testing tech can detect many chemicals and elements at absurdly low concentrations. If one animal out of a thousand was euthanized with phenobarbital and its' ground remains mixed and diluted by the rest, it would probably still be detected.

The idea that the drugs used to euthanize horses and some other livestock can make their way into the pet food chain may be viable, but the OP does a poor job of supporting that claim.

I don't think that all commercially available pet food should be fit for human consumption. Many animals, including species commonly used as pets, have digestive systems and immune systems that are very different from humans. They can eat, and sometimes need to eat food that is inedible or even unsafe for humans to eat.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:25 AM   #56
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Fried chicken is wonderful and is one of the things that makes life worth living.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:45 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
BSE, scrapie, and other prion-based brain diseases exist only because of cannibalism. It should be pretty simple to make sure that dog food doesn't contain dead dogs, in the same way as we no longer feed dead cows to cows.

This is fundamentally untrue. If only because we don't know for certain what the actual cause or causes of spongeform encephalopathy are. (I'm not referring to the agent, which is the misfolded protein.) It seems to be able to occur spontaneously in many mammalian species.

We know some of the vectors of transmission, but when a human contracts vCJD from a cow infected with BSE (which did not have be infected by consuming feed made from other cows) I don't think that can be accurately described as "cannibalism".
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:51 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is fundamentally untrue. If only because we don't know for certain what the actual cause or causes of spongeform encephalopathy are. (I'm not referring to the agent, which is the misfolded protein.) It seems to be able to occur spontaneously in many mammalian species.

We know some of the vectors of transmission, but when a human contracts vCJD from a cow infected with BSE (which did not have be infected by consuming feed made from other cows) I don't think that can be accurately described as "cannibalism".
And scrapie was identified centuries ago, when I seriously doubt that sheep were being fed sheep products.
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because I thought I was answering your question about where the animal protein in pet food is supposed to come from. You listed a few different options, but omitted one of the two which I think is most likely (the other one is seafood).........
Got it now. Thanks.
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
........The idea that the drugs used to euthanize horses and some other livestock..........
Well, we've found yet another difference between the USA and the UK. Here sick or injured horses are shot. Cows are sent for slaughter to an abbatoir. Young surplus steers are shot. I'm not saying that they are never drugged to death, but in 40 years of living in the countryside surrounded by farmers and horseriders, and with friends who are vets, I've never heard of it happening.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:17 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This is fundamentally untrue. If only because we don't know for certain what the actual cause or causes of spongeform encephalopathy are. (I'm not referring to the agent, which is the misfolded protein.) It seems to be able to occur spontaneously in many mammalian species.

We know some of the vectors of transmission, but when a human contracts vCJD from a cow infected with BSE (which did not have be infected by consuming feed made from other cows) I don't think that can be accurately described as "cannibalism".
Also, nobody knows for sure where Chronic Wasting Disease (which is the prion disease that affects several species of deer) came from, but I have never heard it suggested that cannibalism was involved. I have seen it suggested that it was cross species transmission of scrapie from sheep, but AFIK, this has never been proven.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:19 PM   #62
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:26 PM   #63
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It's difficult to argue further against theprestige because what am I even arguing against? The notion that every dog food out there is nutritious and of positive benefit to the dog? What absolute nonsense.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:35 PM   #64
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Interesting tid bit re vCJD : According to 23&Me, via Promethease.com, I have a genetic immunity to it. I recall they said "Eat your brains out".

I sleep much better now that I don't worry about the Zombie Apocalypse.

Next question- Did we evolve this adaption to allow cannibalism, or just eating animal brains? Or were my ancestors survivors of the Zombie Apocalypse of the Dark Ages?
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:39 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I kind of had the same thought. The linked article from the OP states that Phenobarbital is "not permitted at any concentration". That sounds good at first, but modern chemical testing tech can detect many chemicals and elements at absurdly low concentrations. If one animal out of a thousand was euthanized with phenobarbital and its' ground remains mixed and diluted by the rest, it would probably still be detected.

The idea that the drugs used to euthanize horses and some other livestock can make their way into the pet food chain may be viable, but the OP does a poor job of supporting that claim.

I don't think that all commercially available pet food should be fit for human consumption. Many animals, including species commonly used as pets, have digestive systems and immune systems that are very different from humans. They can eat, and sometimes need to eat food that is inedible or even unsafe for humans to eat.
Pentobarbitol is not phenobarbitol. Otherwise, my doxie who takes phenobarbitol to control her seizures would long be dead.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, we've found yet another difference between the USA and the UK. Here sick or injured horses are shot. Cows are sent for slaughter to an abbatoir. Young surplus steers are shot. I'm not saying that they are never drugged to death, but in 40 years of living in the countryside surrounded by farmers and horseriders, and with friends who are vets, I've never heard of it happening.
I don't know how common it is.

It happens, it is shown on various "reality" shows that follow veterinarians around. It might be more common for horses in more urban/suburban environments if those municipalities don't factor that into regulations prohibiting discharge of firearms. It might also be seen as a more peaceful way to go among people who are really attached to them.

I suspect firearms are still the common solution in rural areas though, which is realistically where most horses are.

A lot of horses also get shipped out of the U.S. to Mexico or Canada and are slaughtered there. There is strong societal disapproval of that, but it still happens.

Horses are a bit of a luxury item here, some are needed for work but many are not. Every time the economy takes a downturn, many horses get abandoned, often in the Federal lands in the west. Ranchers go out to check on the cattle or equipment, and a couple of horses have appeared overnight. Some get "rescued" by people who mean well but lack the resources to care for them and can't bear to put them down. There is clear room for improvement on the way horses are treated here.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by carrps View Post
Pentobarbitol is not phenobarbitol. Otherwise, my doxie who takes phenobarbitol to control her seizures would long be dead.
Well, if you want to be all technically accurate and everything....

The spell checker like pheno - that's my excuse. That and general laziness.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Well, if you want to be all technically accurate and everything....

The spell checker like pheno - that's my excuse. That and general laziness.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's difficult to argue further against theprestige because what am I even arguing against?
You're arguing against the notion that "animal sludge" is a misleading scare-term that has no reason to be taken seriously as an indictment of *any* brand of dog food.
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Old 14th February 2018, 12:58 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, we've found yet another difference between the USA and the UK. Here sick or injured horses are shot. Cows are sent for slaughter to an abbatoir. Young surplus steers are shot. I'm not saying that they are never drugged to death, but in 40 years of living in the countryside surrounded by farmers and horseriders, and with friends who are vets, I've never heard of it happening.
Quite possibly, but this case happened in the USA. It took me about 30 seconds to discover that this drug is indeed used to euthanise farm animals in the USA, ones that might well end up in pet food. Why base a line of argument on local, personal experience when it's so easy to check what happens at the source of the story?

But it's irrelevant anyway, except academically. There's no way the dogs in the o/p ingested enough of the drug residue to explain their symptoms.
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:09 PM   #71
MikeG
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
.......Why base a line of argument on local, personal experience when it's so easy to check what happens at the source of the story?.......
There you go with that old ISF problem again: seeing a question or a comment as an argument. I did precisely what you suggest (check[ed] what happens at the source of the story) by asking here in the thread. The ISF (I don't know if you know this) isn't some great google-based contest......"oooh, look what I found.........you could have found it so easily yourself" or "I found this on google quicker than you". No, it's a discussion forum. Discussion: that thing where people communicate with questions, anecdotes, quips, asides, jokes, and even, occasionally, arguments. I'm not in this thread because I am hugely interested in dog food. I'm in it to find out a little about other peoples' worlds, and to pass on a little bit about mine. I'm ********** if I'm in it as a google-fest. Your mileage probably varies, as I've discovered they say in the USA.
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The difference is, I'm not relying on third party commentary in order to make judgement.
No, you are just appealing to a hack website as evidence for laughs? Can I ask for evidence again?

Quote:
I understand the principles involved because I have researched the science,
Curious that you haven't cited any.

Quote:
and therefore it is blatantly obvious to me that food such as Bakers is garbage. Indeed, you will not find any other assessment of it, other than by persons with invested interests in the product, or those with zero knowledge of dog nutrition who think that because their dog wolfs it down it must be great stuff.
Yes, the BVA and anyone who disagrees with you is just in the hand of Big Pet Food. That's nice, dear.

Quote:
Maybe you can explain how the ingredients are representative of high quality? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning. It is crazy to suggest that reading the ingredients list does not give an indication of the quality of the food. I assume this woman is not mad and therefore is simply unable to clearly make her case. It's like stating that the technical spec of a computer is useless in determining its capabilities because most people don't understand the details. No, actually it's pretty useful to people who know what they're talking about. She should have said that the terminology used in labelling can conceal low quality ingredients, and indeed is designed to, so that someone ignorant of nutrition is fooled into thinking the food is acceptable. The converse is never true. There is no possible way in which the ingredients list is not a highly accurate pointer to the food quality for anybody with a basic understanding of the science.
Wow, it's like you didn't read the actual expert opinion at all!

Quote:
In summary, while we may feel better about feeding a diet full of great-sounding ingredients, these diets are usually similar or even potentially less nutritious than diets containing less appealing (to people) ingredients. There is no way to determine diet quality from the label or the ingredient list. The only thing that is certain is that you will pay more for the food with the more appealing ingredient list. It’s critical to have high quality ingredients and to have a company that has the expertise to put them together in a way that meets all your pet’s nutritional needs. However, this isn’t something you can tell from the ingredient list. Think of it this way – a terrible cook can make even the most expensive ingredients inedible, while an excellent cook can work magic with basic ingredients.
To put it succinctly:

Quote:
Pets require nutrients, not ingredients; a diet full of great sounding ingredients can be less nutritious than a diet containing less appealing (to people) ingredients.
Linky.

Quote:
She goes onto state "So, what’s the conscientious pet owner to do? Talking to your pet’s veterinarian should be the first step. Your veterinarian can help you select a food that meets your pet’s nutritional needs during different life stages, based on body condition and activity level, and if medical conditions should arise." This is naive at best, although maybe in the States things are different (I imagine that in fact they are worse). Most vets have little or no training in nutrition, and what training they do have is often funded by specific dog food companies who come in for an afternoon to market their brand. Vets are then given incentives to push certain foods which are branded as 'veterinary' foods. This whole thing is a scam, and these foods are actually bland concoctions of low quality ingredients that are sold at monstrously inflated prices to people who believe they are the only solution to their dogs' 'sensitivities', or believe they are 'specially formulated' for old dogs, or young dogs, or big dogs or lame dogs or dogs with urinary problems or dogs with dry eyes or similar nonsense. It's a complete con.
Care to cite anything proving that the field of veterinary nutrition is a scam? Scientific sources you know that these board-certified veterinary nutritionists are unaware of? Cite that prescription diets are a scam? Because so far I am just seeing the typical conspiratorial woo claims.
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:29 PM   #73
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Does anyone know anything about the effects this drug has when swallowed, as opposed to being injected?
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:36 PM   #74
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My mistake, I thought this was internationalskeptics, not internationalsuckers. When a random person whose job depends on dog owners being ignorant about canine nutrition states outright that dog owners should pay no heed to the ingredients of a dog food when judging the quality of the food (i.e. dismiss the only measure by which a judgement can be made) and instead - ahem! - pay to consult people like her, I'm meant to throw up my hands and say, "Of course! What am I thinking of! So stupid of me to think I could actually make a basic evaluation on my own".

Look, just stop feeding your dog Bakers and cease this nonsense.
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Old 14th February 2018, 01:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
My mistake, I thought this was internationalskeptics, not internationalsuckers. When a random person whose job depends on dog owners being ignorant about canine nutrition states outright that dog owners should pay no heed to the ingredients of a dog food when judging the quality of the food (i.e. dismiss the only measure by which a judgement can be made) and instead - ahem! - pay to consult people like her, I'm meant to throw up my hands and say, "Of course! What am I thinking of! So stupid of me to think I could actually make a basic evaluation on my own".

Look, just stop feeding your dog Bakers and cease this nonsense.
So no evidence, just more ad homs?

For illustrated examples, let's check out the creme de la creme of human appealing ingredient lists, raw diets:

Quote:
Risks of Nutritional Imbalances
A small study from the United States in 2001 demonstrated multiple nutritional imbalances, some of which could have important health effects for the animal. A European study calculated levels of 12 nutrients (e.g., calcium, phosphorus, vitamin A) for 95 homemade raw meat diets being fed to dogs and found that 60% of the diets had major nutritional imbalances. In our clinical practice, we’ve seen a number of commercial raw meat diets whose nutrient profiles either don’t make any sense, or don’t meet current nutritional requirements, despite labeling to the contrary. We’ve also seen a number of commercial raw diets that are marketed as being appropriate to feed as the main diet when they are deficient in multiple essential nutrients. Therefore, there is concern that both commercial and homemade raw meat diets may have important nutrient deficiencies and excesses. In addition, even if these diets meet the minimum nutrient levels and don’t exceed the maximums, they may not provide an optimal nutrient profile. For example, many raw meat diets may be very high in fat compared to typical canned and dry diets, which may make the coat look shiny, but could cause health problems for some animals.
Linky.

I am confused why you don't address that ingredient lists do not adequately show nutritional content, and that appealing looking lists to human standards might actually be less nutritious than "sludge".

But hey, I'm not the one claiming that the entire field of veterinary nutrition is a scam. I'm just some dummy that won't take a self-proclaimed "independent veterinary nutritionist" and some forumite at their words that they know more about veterinary nutrition science than the Clinical Nutrition Team at Tufts University.

(I like how veterinarians who actually are board certified in veterinary nutrition means a "random person" to you, and not Mr. "independent veterinary nutritionist" who runs a dog food ranking website)
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Does anyone know anything about the effects this drug has when swallowed, as opposed to being injected?
About 10gms seems to be about a reliable lethal (eta -
oral) dose for a human. Death, I read, is of a 'serene' nature.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
That is very, very bad news. Extremely poor people often eat animal food. If they can't get food assistance, are unable to work, and have no other options, a can of dog food is a lot less expensive than almost anything else on the shelves.

That's without even considering any other kind of dire circumstances that may leave someone forced to survive on food intended for some kind of animal.

All commercial animal feed should be fit for human consumption, IMO.
I thought it already was but I only have experience with the UK.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:14 PM   #78
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I made no ad-homs, I merely said I am not a sucker and can't imagine taking the word of someone with clear vested interests over my own experience and judgement.

I have no problem whatsoever reading an ingredient list and making a well-informed decision on nutritional benefits. It's astonishing that anybody would maintain that such a thing is impossible. I'm sure that doing this from a position of ignorance could result in a false assessment, but luckily that's not how I'd approach it. And it's not how anybody else who can spare half a day researching the subject would approach it either. If you are unable to assess a dog food based on its ingredients then that's fine, but I don't have time to school you and I certainly won't agree with you that this is a desirable state of affairs.

And I didn't say "the entire field of veterinary nutrition is a scam", that's a flat out lie. I detailed a specific practice that is widespread in the veterinary world and said that is a scam. Because it is.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:19 PM   #79
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Our dogs have had Bakers for years, they love the stuff and were and are always good and healthy.

When I was a kid dogs got whatever was left over as their main diet supplemented with the unwanted bits from the butchers.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:26 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I made no ad-homs, I merely said I am not a sucker and can't imagine taking the word of someone with clear vested interests over my own experience and judgement.
Motte-and-bailey again. You advance against your critics by talking about suckers, and when your critics rightly infer you mean them, you hastily retreat and blame your critics for understanding you too well.

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I have no problem whatsoever reading an ingredient list and making a well-informed decision on nutritional benefits.
However, you do seem to have a problem with presenting that information to others.
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