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Old 14th February 2018, 03:30 PM   #1
deadrose
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ICE lawyer charged with identity theft

The chief counsel for the Seattle ICE office has been charged with stealing immigrants' identities and using them for bank fraud over the past 5-6 years. it involved several banks and card issuers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/u...dentities.html

Have to wonder what sort of monkey was on his back, or if he was just an awful person?

Generally, ICE runs towards the latter, especially after the recent arrest of an asylum seeker at his interview, on the grounds that he'd entered the country illegally even though he had a green card. Or the arrest and deportation of people who call 911, or any of the other numerous cases reported recently. Their general MO seems to be "deport them all and sort it out later" with the bonus that when the deportees try to sort it out, they're denied on the grounds that ICE deported them.
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Old 14th February 2018, 03:40 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Have to wonder what sort of monkey was on his back, or if he was just an awful person?
I'd say awful person either way.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post

Have to wonder what sort of monkey was on his back, or if he was just an awful person?

Generally, ICE runs towards the latter, especially after the recent arrest of an asylum seeker at his interview, on the grounds that he'd entered the country illegally even though he had a green card. Or the arrest and deportation of people who call 911
You lost me. I don't think ICE responds to 911 calls.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me. I don't think ICE responds to 911 calls.
The current controversy is that ICE has demanded that all police interactions with the public screen for immigration violations and turn over any immigrants found.

This has led to immigrants hesitating to use EMS.

Corrupt ICE doesn't help their case.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The current controversy is that ICE has demanded that all police interactions with the public screen for immigration violations and turn over any immigrants found.

This has led to immigrants hesitating to use EMS.

Corrupt ICE doesn't help their case.
I know there's a controversy about checking for immigration holds on suspects being detained for other reasons.

I wasn't aware of the blanket "demand" about *all* police interactions. Do you have a cite?
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:35 PM   #6
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The official department policy here is that the police do NOT report people to ICE so that they can safely report crimes, fires, and health emergencies; but a fair portion of the SPD go against policy and call in ICE anyway, as they did in that case.
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Old 14th February 2018, 05:11 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
The official department policy here is that the police do NOT report people to ICE so that they can safely report crimes, fires, and health emergencies; but a fair portion of the SPD go against policy and call in ICE anyway, as they did in that case.
Seattle PD is infamous for ignoring governmental restrictions in every respect, anyway. Why would "don't call ICE" be any different?

And to think I wanted to join SPD at one point a long time ago too...
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Old 14th February 2018, 05:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know there's a controversy about checking for immigration holds on suspects being detained for other reasons.

I wasn't aware of the blanket "demand" about *all* police interactions. Do you have a cite?
Here's one.
http://www.king5.com/article/news/lo.../281-516319878

This guy called the cops as a victim. They put him on ICE. The police routinely run names for warrants. If ICE wants you, the cops can turn you over. I'm sure the cops still have discretion, but there's no evidence that the police are especially sympathetic to immigrants.
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Old 14th February 2018, 05:41 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Here's one.
http://www.king5.com/article/news/lo.../281-516319878

This guy called the cops as a victim. They put him on ICE. The police routinely run names for warrants. If ICE wants you, the cops can turn you over. I'm sure the cops still have discretion, but there's no evidence that the police are especially sympathetic to immigrants.
That was a routine check for outstanding warrants. Not an ICE demand, not a special search for ICE stuff. He just happened to have outstanding warrants.

Is that ICE's big sin, here? When an illegal immigrant skips their court hearing ICE puts a warrant on them in the NCIC database for any law enforcement official to find on a routine check?

What's the solution to that? ICE should stop trying to arrest criminals and bring them to justice?

Local PD should ignore outstanding warrants? Or should they just not check for warrants altogether?

As a matter of basic humanitarian principle, shouldn't illegal immigrants get exactly the same due process as everyone else? The same warrant search? The same results if an outstanding warrant is found?

Last edited by theprestige; 14th February 2018 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
The official department policy here is that the police do NOT report people to ICE so that they can safely report crimes, fires, and health emergencies; but a fair portion of the SPD go against policy and call in ICE anyway, as they did in that case.
This is my personal opinion.

I have no problem with criminals being reported for deportation, but if undocumented immigrants are afraid to call emergency services in fear, that affects EVERYONE.

I don't want my neighbor, who perhaps doesn't have a valid SSN, to hesitate calling 911 if my house is on fire, or sees someone burglarizing my home when I'm not there.

ETA: And children growing up here? Being deported to other countries they barely remember? Irrational.
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Last edited by TheGoldcountry; 14th February 2018 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
This is my personal opinion.

I have no problem with criminals being reported for deportation, but if undocumented immigrants are afraid to call emergency services in fear, that affects EVERYONE.

I don't want my neighbor, who perhaps doesn't have a valid SSN, to hesitate calling 911 if my house is on fire, or sees someone burglarizing my home when I'm not there.
It's possible to report a crime anonymously, you know. 911 still mobilizes if the caller hangs up without providing personal details.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's possible to report a crime anonymously, you know. 911 still mobilizes if the caller hangs up without providing personal details.
True. Also, checking warrants on victims and witnesses makes sense since it can often provide information relevant to the crime being investigated or scoop serious criminals off the streets. I'd have a huge problem with ICE requiring immigration checks every time someone interacted with the cops, but that doesn't seem to be the case anywhere in the United States.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
This is my personal opinion.

I have no problem with criminals being reported for deportation, but if undocumented immigrants are afraid to call emergency services in fear, that affects EVERYONE.

I don't want my neighbor, who perhaps doesn't have a valid SSN, to hesitate calling 911 if my house is on fire, or sees someone burglarizing my home when I'm not there.


ETA: And children growing up here? Being deported to other countries they barely remember? Irrational.
I agree 100% even without any possible benefit to myself.

That's what our Sanctuary City laws was intended to be, but somehow victims reporting crime went sliding down the slope to protecting the victimizers as well.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:17 PM   #14
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Better ten guilty illegal immigrants go free, than one innocent illegal immigrant be deported on account of *they're not actually innocent *.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:25 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Better ten guilty illegal immigrants go free, than one innocent illegal immigrant be deported on account of *they're not actually innocent *.
To me, it's more like better 10 illegal aliens go free than one murderer, rapist, armed robber, gangbanger or extortionist get away because some illegal alien was too scared of being turned in to ICE to turn snitch. Sanctuary policies exist on a spectrum and I think it's possible to have a policy that lets victims and witnesses feel safe in coming forward without obstructing legitimate ICE work. The old LAPD Special Order 40 is probably about where I think the line should be. But I'm open to suggestions.
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Old 14th February 2018, 08:32 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
.....
What's the solution to that? ICE should stop trying to arrest criminals and bring them to justice?

Local PD should ignore outstanding warrants? Or should they just not check for warrants altogether?

As a matter of basic humanitarian principle, shouldn't illegal immigrants get exactly the same due process as everyone else? The same warrant search? The same results if an outstanding warrant is found?
I don't see an ideal solution. The local cops should certainly check for warrants. But if what turns up is a warrant for failing to appear at an federal ICE hearing, as opposed to a local crime or unpaid parking tickets or something, the cops could say it's up to the feds to enforce federal law and not make the call. The results are not the same as for others if the guy who calls 911 for help can get put on a one-way bus out of the country.

Last edited by Bob001; 14th February 2018 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
To me, it's more like better 10 illegal aliens go free than one murderer, rapist, armed robber, gangbanger or extortionist get away because some illegal alien was too scared of being turned in to ICE to turn snitch. Sanctuary policies exist on a spectrum and I think it's possible to have a policy that lets victims and witnesses feel safe in coming forward without obstructing legitimate ICE work. The old LAPD Special Order 40 is probably about where I think the line should be. But I'm open to suggestions.
How is the chilling effect of an ICE warrant different from the chilling effect of any other kind of warrant? If the goal is to encourage criminals to report crimes, shouldn't we be looking at the entire system of routine warrant checks? Why the special pleading for illegal immigrants?

And why is it a problem for anyone, that those who turn their hand against society find the hand of society often turned against them in return? People that opt out of the rule of law do indeed find that they must get by without it.

It seems to me that if your city must set aside normal law enforcement procedures in order to accommodate illegal immigrants, then your city has a really serious illegal immigrant problem. Perhaps greater cooperation with ICE is the real answer, here.
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is the chilling effect of an ICE warrant different from the chilling effect of any other kind of warrant? If the goal is to encourage criminals to report crimes, shouldn't we be looking at the entire system of routine warrant checks? Why the special pleading for illegal immigrants?

And why is it a problem for anyone, that those who turn their hand against society find the hand of society often turned against them in return? People that opt out of the rule of law do indeed find that they must get by without it.

It seems to me that if your city must set aside normal law enforcement procedures in order to accommodate illegal immigrants, then your city has a really serious illegal immigrant problem. Perhaps greater cooperation with ICE is the real answer, here.
I agree with some parts of what you're saying, but firmly consider it the federal government's responsibility to fix the situation and the job of the locals to make do with the status quo until that happens. I consider LAPD Special Order 40 to be a good example of how to thread an ugly needle. It didn't stop cops from doing warrant checks or arresting illegal aliens if they had an immigration warrant but did stop them from asking about immigration status. Newer sanctuary city policies go further and that's part of the problem.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is the chilling effect of an ICE warrant different from the chilling effect of any other kind of warrant? If the goal is to encourage criminals to report crimes, shouldn't we be looking at the entire system of routine warrant checks? Why the special pleading for illegal immigrants?
.....
For one thing, it's a different category of crime. Immigration status is a federal matter, and any one person's legal status can change from day to day. Local police could say that immigration matters are outside their jurisdiction, just as local cops don't arrest people for failing to file federal tax forms.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For one thing, it's a different category of crime. Immigration status is a federal matter, and any one person's legal status can change from day to day. Local police could say that immigration matters are outside their jurisdiction, just as local cops don't arrest people for failing to file federal tax forms.
That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of an inter-jurisdictional arrest warrant database is so that police in one jurisdiction can forward a person in their custody to police in another jurisdiction when that person has a warrant there.

If the federal government issues an arrest warrant for tax evasion, and a warrant check discovers it, then the local police can and do cooperate with federal law enforcement.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:49 AM   #21
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And the lawyer just pled guilty. https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964208135110979584
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of an inter-jurisdictional arrest warrant database is so that police in one jurisdiction can forward a person in their custody to police in another jurisdiction when that person has a warrant there.

If the federal government issues an arrest warrant for tax evasion, and a warrant check discovers it, then the local police can and do cooperate with federal law enforcement.
Sure. But the local cops can always exercise discretion. They can choose to say "We're not sending this guy to El Salvador because he told us his neighbor's house is on fire."
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sure. But the local cops can always exercise discretion. They can choose to say "We're not sending this guy to El Salvador because he told us his neighbor's house is on fire."
Police discretion is not something I would hang my life on.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sure. But the local cops can always exercise discretion. They can choose to say "We're not sending this guy to El Salvador because he told us his neighbor's house is on fire."
The question is whether a federal warrant is meaningfully different from any other outside-jurisdiction warrant that the police normally find and act on during routine warrant checks. You managed to reply to my post without actually answering the question.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is the chilling effect of an ICE warrant different from the chilling effect of any other kind of warrant? If the goal is to encourage criminals to report crimes, shouldn't we be looking at the entire system of routine warrant checks? Why the special pleading for illegal immigrants?

And why is it a problem for anyone, that those who turn their hand against society find the hand of society often turned against them in return? People that opt out of the rule of law do indeed find that they must get by without it.

It seems to me that if your city must set aside normal law enforcement procedures in order to accommodate illegal immigrants, then your city has a really serious illegal immigrant problem. Perhaps greater cooperation with ICE is the real answer, here.
Imagine the millions of legal immigrants and refugees who followed the rules, had to wait years to reunite with family members and spent their hard earned money making sure all applications, documents and requirements were completed and processed properly so they could become U.S. citizens.

What a bunch of dummies!
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Sure. But the local cops can always exercise discretion. They can choose to say "We're not sending this guy to El Salvador because he told us his neighbor's house is on fire."
The opposite, also. A county/municipality in the state of Nebraska might say to a similar municipality in Oregon "thanks for notifying us, but we choose not to pursue this 20 year old bench warrant over parking tickets."

Lots of cases like this go unpursued because of the very logical reason that the people in question present no "clear or imminent danger" to the public, and no one really has any interest in going forward with prosecution.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The question is whether a federal warrant is meaningfully different from any other outside-jurisdiction warrant that the police normally find and act on during routine warrant checks. You managed to reply to my post without actually answering the question.
Well, some people think that individual state rights are important, but that seems to change with the wind.

Gun rights? Godddamn right! 2nd Amendment, I have a right to my rifle!

Marijuana? "**** those liberal hippies, beer and scotch are all-American, get rid of that ******"

Abortion, health care, education, a lot of people turn on a dime when it comes to federal vs. state law.
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Old 16th February 2018, 08:23 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Well, some people think that individual state rights are important, but that seems to change with the wind.

Gun rights? Godddamn right! 2nd Amendment, I have a right to my rifle!

Marijuana? "**** those liberal hippies, beer and scotch are all-American, get rid of that ******"

Abortion, health care, education, a lot of people turn on a dime when it comes to federal vs. state law.
It sounds like you have some ideas towards answering my question. Please reply again once you've organized them into something we can actually discuss coherently.
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