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Old 14th January 2013, 06:26 PM   #1
Tricky
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Hero or victim? Ten-year old boy kills his abusive Neo-Nazi father

Man, I don't want to cheer a murderer, but I have a hard time not wanting to hug this kid. His father, described as a "rising star" in the local Neo-Nazi party, was beating his wife, probably having an affair, leaving guns all over the house where his kids could get to them (his undoing) and preaching hatred toward Jews, non-whites and other standard objects of Nazi hatred.

Quote:
Hall had been the Southwestern states regional director for the National Socialist Movement, according to an online tribute to him from the group's leader, Jeff Schoep. One of the nation's biggest, most well-known neo-Nazi organizations, the National Socialist Movement idolizes Adolf Hitler and touts virulent rhetoric against those who are Jewish, immigrants and not "pure-blood whites," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center civil rights group.
And, big shock, a child and wife-abuser.
Quote:
The boy told police "he was tired of his dad hitting him and his mom," and that he thought his father was having an affair that might contribute to the family's break-up.
I feel guilty for cheering at this guy's death, but I cannot help it. The world is better without such (and I use the term loosely) people, and the fact that it was done by the son he raised and taught to be violent makes it almost poetic justice.
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Old 14th January 2013, 06:29 PM   #2
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Kismet.

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Old 14th January 2013, 06:52 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Man, I don't want to cheer a murderer, but I have a hard time not wanting to hug this kid. His father, described as a "rising star" in the local Neo-Nazi party, was beating his wife, probably having an affair, leaving guns all over the house where his kids could get to them (his undoing) and preaching hatred toward Jews, non-whites and other standard objects of Nazi hatred.



And, big shock, a child and wife-abuser.


I feel guilty for cheering at this guy's death, but I cannot help it. The world is better without such (and I use the term loosely) people, and the fact that it was done by the son he raised and taught to be violent makes it almost poetic justice.
To quote one of my favorite lines in a movie, there is now one less wart on the ass of society.

I feel no guilt at being happy this guy is dead, though I do wish he had had the decency to take himself out instead of hanging around until he screwed his son up enough to where the kid could point a .357 at him and pull the trigger while he was sleeping. Hopefully the kid will get the help he needs and won't have to pay for the sins of his father for the rest of his life......
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Old 14th January 2013, 06:58 PM   #4
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It depends, was it open season on Nazis and did he have a license? Or are Nazis considered varmints with no closed season?
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
It depends, was it open season on Nazis and did he have a license? Or are Nazis considered varmints with no closed season?
Depends on their subspecies. Was the the loving family man who just happens to hate other races, but was good to the people he loved? Those kind are so rare as to be protected. Doesn't look like this was one.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:08 PM   #6
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People who preach hatred should be murderated with extreme hostility.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:12 PM   #7
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It is unfortunate that he will have to spend ten years in juvie. Foster care would have been a much better option, with seasoned foster parents who can teach him how to be an asset to society. By putting him in detention, the judge is basically guaranteeing a criminal.

On the other hand, he will be exposed to "non-whites" in juvie, and maybe he will become friends with some. Maybe they can make him less bigoted? (Not saying he IS, but I am assuming it is likely, since it's all he's known.)
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:13 PM   #8
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I stop short of calling him a hero, but I think it safe to say that there is one hell of a mitigating and ameliorating circumstance going on here. The decedent is mostly a victim of his own lack of human qualities. The kid probably realized that there was no way he could fight back and still live if the turd didn't die.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:15 PM   #9
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This has the potential to be an interesting case if it goes to trial.

This man being dead works for me, and I don't feel guilty about it. This boy didn't kill his father over the big picture - we don't even know his thoughts on nazi's. It sounds as if he killed him because of self protection. However, if the man was not assaulting him at the time, it would seem difficult to call it self defense.

I'm off to read some articles about this.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by shalomsteph View Post
It is unfortunate that he will have to spend ten years in juvie. Foster care would have been a much better option, with seasoned foster parents who can teach him how to be an asset to society. By putting him in detention, the judge is basically guaranteeing a criminal.
I'm more concerned about what might happen when he meets the junior auxilliary of the Aryan Brotherhood in juvie. They will either kill him or turn him into a hard-core little Sturmer. He is already hardened to the idea of killing off the unfit.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
This has the potential to be an interesting case if it goes to trial.

This man being dead works for me, and I don't feel guilty about it. This boy didn't kill his father over the big picture - we don't even know his thoughts on nazi's. It sounds as if he killed him because of self protection. However, if the man was not assaulting him at the time, it would seem difficult to call it self defense.

I'm off to read some articles about this.
Unfortunately it has already been to trial and the judge found that it was true (Little fuzzy on this but it seems as though they don't have guilty or not guilty verdicts for juveniles but I could be misreading) that the kid murdered his father. Awaiting sentencing now to my understanding
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:30 PM   #12
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Although 10 is the age of criminal culpability in Australia, there's "rebuttable presumption":

Quote:
For instance, in Australia, there is a rebuttable presumption that a child aged at least 10 but less than 14 is incapable of committing a criminal act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebuttable_presumption

I would like this principal to be applied to this child, if possible. I hate the thought of him being in custody for another 10 years.
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:32 PM   #13
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Well he committed a gun crime...
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Well he committed a gun crime...
Is that directed at me? If so why?
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Old 14th January 2013, 07:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by shalomsteph View Post
It is unfortunate that he will have to spend ten years in juvie. Foster care would have been a much better option, with seasoned foster parents who can teach him how to be an asset to society. By putting him in detention, the judge is basically guaranteeing a criminal.
I disagree. I don't the average foster family would necessarily be safe for him (or him for them).

Because of this:

Quote:
The boy told police "he was tired of his dad hitting him and his mom," and that he thought his father was having an affair that might contribute to the family's break-up.
He didn't kill his father because he found his father's views repugnant and/or rejected them. The fact that his father is a neo-nazi likely had absolutely nothing to do with the killing itself; and I would say it's a fair bet that the boy, having grown up in that house, probably holds at least some of those same views or at most is ambivalent about them. The article's phrasing makes it a little ambiguous, but if it's true that part of the motivation for the murder was that he thought his father was having an affair which "might break up the family", then what the boy really needs to have a chance at maybe growing up as not-a-danger to society is a serious therapeutic intervention, likely (but not necessarily) in an institutional setting. Juvenile detention is the wrong place, but so is a foster family and moving on with life as if everything will be okay. Whatever happens, he can't be allowed to grow up with the impression that murder can be forgivable if the victim is enough of a jerk.
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Old 14th January 2013, 08:31 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Man, I don't want to cheer a murderer, but I have a hard time not wanting to hug this kid. His father, described as a "rising star" in the local Neo-Nazi party, was beating his wife, probably having an affair, leaving guns all over the house where his kids could get to them (his undoing) and preaching hatred toward Jews, non-whites and other standard objects of Nazi hatred.



And, big shock, a child and wife-abuser.


I feel guilty for cheering at this guy's death, but I cannot help it. The world is better without such (and I use the term loosely) people, and the fact that it was done by the son he raised and taught to be violent makes it almost poetic justice.
I do not feel at all guilty - just hope the son does not have any psychiatric problems over this.
He has nothing to feel guilty/sorry about. But I am sorry he had to be the one to do it.
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Old 14th January 2013, 08:32 PM   #17
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I ain't gonna shed no tears for the Father.....
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Old 15th January 2013, 08:11 PM   #18
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I'm going to be a stick in the mud. While the father was a genuine dooche, the kid broke the law. As societies, we develop laws for the protection and betterment of our society, members of that society can't just ignore the law because someone else is a jerk. The kid knew that what he was doing was wrong and had a lot of other options than to shoot his sleeping father. He choose to go outside of the law to resolve his problems by using violence and taking a life. As a society we say that this sort of action is wrong, and as a result there is a consequence for those actions.

So to the title of the thread. Neither. He is certainly not a hero, he broke the law in the worst way possible. His treatment by the father might have made him a victim of abuse, but his actions make his father one as well.
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Old 15th January 2013, 08:19 PM   #19
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I agree with Phantom Wolf. He killed a douche, but his stated reasons for doing so were not noble.
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Old 15th January 2013, 09:14 PM   #20
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"The first signs of the boy's penchant for violence surfaced at an early age. When he was a toddler, his grandmother refused to baby-sit him because of his outbursts, and he later was expelled from eight schools for violent behavior, including an attempt to strangle a teacher with a phone cord, according to evidence presented at the trial." From the LA Times.

I'm sure that his terrible, violent childhood (he was a dependent of the court when this occurred) contributed to his behavior, as well as fetal exposure to drugs and alcohol. However, given that he seems to have normalized violence, I think that he should be monitored closely for the rest of his life. He is a dangerous kid who will probably grow into a dangerous man.

I hope that the JJC can come up with an appropriate treatment plan/sentence that will give him some future chance.
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Old 15th January 2013, 09:52 PM   #21
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Should've done it sooner... like on Oct. 31st... dressed as Indiana Jones.
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Old 17th January 2013, 04:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
People who preach hatred should be murderated with extreme hostility.
Like who?
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:00 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by marksman View Post
He killed a douche, but his stated reasons for doing so were not noble.
Really? He was tired of his dad beating on him and his mum. His stated reasons weren't political (give him a break - he's only ten), but they seem pretty noble to me.
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Old 17th January 2013, 05:36 AM   #24
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His stated reason as I understand it was also that he was afraid his dad was going to leave his mom
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:49 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Really? He was tired of his dad beating on him and his mum. His stated reasons weren't political (give him a break - he's only ten), but they seem pretty noble to me.
Did he give a noble reason for trying to strangle one of his teachers with a phone cord?
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:52 AM   #26
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Kid is going to be a messed-up adult. Not much chance he will stay out of jail. This sort of environment probably cannot produce a mentally healthy child.
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Old 17th January 2013, 08:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Kid is going to be a messed-up adult. Not much chance he will stay out of jail. This sort of environment probably cannot produce a mentally healthy child.
AFAIK about the US, juvenile criminal records are wiped when the person turns 18 or 21, though it depends on the nature of the offence.
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
I feel guilty for cheering at this guy's death
I don't.
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Hall had been the Southwestern states regional director for the National Socialist Movement, according to an online tribute to him from the group's leader, Jeff Schoep. One of the nation's biggest, most well-known neo-Nazi organizations, the National Socialist Movement idolizes Adolf Hitler and touts virulent rhetoric against those who are Jewish, immigrants and not "pure-blood whites," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center civil rights group.
If the objective of bringing the irrelevant views of the father into what was a criminal matter was to make the patricide seem justifiable then it seems to have worked.
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I would like this principal to be applied to this child, if possible. I hate the thought of him being in custody for another 10 years.
Where is the outrage that a child was allowed access to an unsecured gun and now because of this tragedy the boy will grow up without a father?

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Old 19th January 2013, 08:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Depends on their subspecies. Was the the loving family man who just happens to hate other races, but was good to the people he loved? Those kind are so rare as to be protected. Doesn't look like this was one.
I'm reminded of Indiana KKK Grand Dragon David Stephenson. He pretended to be a champion of the virtues of women (well, white women anyway), yet in 1925 he abducted and brutally raped a young woman, Madge Oberholtzer, who later died as a result of her injuries. But she lived long enough to recount her ordeal in detail to the police. When the governor of Indiana refused to pardon Stephenson, he spilled his guts about all the corruption that the Klan and many high ranking members of the Indiana government had been involved in. Sentenced to life, but paroled in 1950, he was arrested again for violating parol and returned to prison. He was pardoned again in 1956 on the condition that he never set foot in Indiana again. Even at the age of 70, this piece of crap was charged with sexual assault against a sixteen year old girl.
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA View Post
"The first signs of the boy's penchant for violence surfaced at an early age. When he was a toddler, his grandmother refused to baby-sit him because of his outbursts, and he later was expelled from eight schools for violent behavior, including an attempt to strangle a teacher with a phone cord, according to evidence presented at the trial." From the LA Times.

I'm sure that his terrible, violent childhood (he was a dependent of the court when this occurred) contributed to his behavior, as well as fetal exposure to drugs and alcohol. However, given that he seems to have normalized violence, I think that he should be monitored closely for the rest of his life. He is a dangerous kid who will probably grow into a dangerous man.

I hope that the JJC can come up with an appropriate treatment plan/sentence that will give him some future chance.
I agree. This poor kid has had a tragic childhood and has been severely damaged. His father created a monster that turned on him. I wonder what the father's childhood was like.
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Old 19th January 2013, 02:08 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Where is the outrage that a child was allowed access to an unsecured gun and now because of this tragedy the boy will grow up without a father?

Ranb
Yes it's outrageous that the US is awash with millions of guns.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm going to be a stick in the mud. While the father was a genuine dooche, the kid broke the law. As societies, we develop laws for the protection and betterment of our society, members of that society can't just ignore the law because someone else is a jerk. The kid knew that what he was doing was wrong and had a lot of other options than to shoot his sleeping father. He choose to go outside of the law to resolve his problems by using violence and taking a life. As a society we say that this sort of action is wrong, and as a result there is a consequence for those actions.

So to the title of the thread. Neither. He is certainly not a hero, he broke the law in the worst way possible. His treatment by the father might have made him a victim of abuse, but his actions make his father one as well.
He "broke the law in the worst way possible?" Really?

While I can understand your other points and empathize with it, I am going to have to disagree. Especially with the "broke the law in the worst way" statement.

It is quite apparent the father was beating his wife and probably his kids. In fact, before the father fell into his (drunken?) sleep, he probably just got done whaling away at the 10 year old child!

Now, a young kid like that stands almost no chance at defending himself from a fully-grown angry adult male while he is awake. But sleeping, that may be his only opportunity to get out of such an abusive situation.

After successfully getting out of one abusive situation (nobody else was going to do it for him), then to have to face ten years of incarceration....that's not "justice."

"Justice" would be getting this young child the help he needs, by professionals who know how to give it.
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
He "broke the law in the worst way possible?" Really?

While I can understand your other points and empathize with it, I am going to have to disagree. Especially with the "broke the law in the worst way" statement.

It is quite apparent the father was beating his wife and probably his kids. In fact, before the father fell into his (drunken?) sleep, he probably just got done whaling away at the 10 year old child!

Now, a young kid like that stands almost no chance at defending himself from a fully-grown angry adult male while he is awake. But sleeping, that may be his only opportunity to get out of such an abusive situation.
Nonsense. The shooting of his father was not done in exasperation over a situation which he could not escape; it was not a case of the boy taking extreme action in a rare situation that required extreme action. Rather, it was just another example in a pattern of violent behavior:

Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA View Post
"The first signs of the boy's penchant for violence surfaced at an early age. When he was a toddler, his grandmother refused to baby-sit him because of his outbursts, and he later was expelled from eight schools for violent behavior, including an attempt to strangle a teacher with a phone cord, according to evidence presented at the trial." From the LA Times.
Who was he attempting to "defend himself from" when he beat on his classmates and tried to kill his teacher in those earlier instances?
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Old 21st January 2013, 12:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post
He "broke the law in the worst way possible?" Really?

While I can understand your other points and empathize with it, I am going to have to disagree. Especially with the "broke the law in the worst way" statement.

It is quite apparent the father was beating his wife and probably his kids. In fact, before the father fell into his (drunken?) sleep, he probably just got done whaling away at the 10 year old child!

Now, a young kid like that stands almost no chance at defending himself from a fully-grown angry adult male while he is awake. But sleeping, that may be his only opportunity to get out of such an abusive situation.

After successfully getting out of one abusive situation (nobody else was going to do it for him), then to have to face ten years of incarceration....that's not "justice."

"Justice" would be getting this young child the help he needs, by professionals who know how to give it.
You can disagree all you want, but the facts of the matter are plain as day. He executed his father while the man slept. That is not self defence or defence of another no matter how you want to try and spin it, and the Judge agreed. Executing a person, no matter how vile they are, is not a civilised or suitable solution to a problem in a civil society. This kid had a number of options. Telling a teacher, telling a LEO, convincing his mother to leave, running away. Shooting his father was not an acceptable one, no matter how much of a scumbag the guy was.

This kid made a choice. He chose that instead of getting help from outside and having them intervene, he would violate his father's right to life, the one right that all people hold most sacred. He had no right to do this, and as such he should be incarcerated, he attempts to solve his problems by resorting to violence (which he has proven that by his other actions, such as trying to strangle his teacher) and is thus a danger to the rest of society.

Does that mean that he should not get help? No. Part of his daily life wherever he ends up should be rehibilitation, but he should not be out on the streets where he can attack others either, and nor should his be applauded for his reprehensible actions.

This doesn't mean that the father was any better, he created a kid a that knows only violence as a solution to his problems. He was an abuser and probably worse, but he should have gone to jail. His son had no right to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner. No one has that right, which is why we lock up those that think they do.
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Old 21st January 2013, 01:33 PM   #37
Nihilianth
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You can disagree all you want, but the facts of the matter are plain as day. He executed his father while the man slept. That is not self defence or defence of another no matter how you want to try and spin it, and the Judge agreed. Executing a person, no matter how vile they are, is not a civilised or suitable solution to a problem in a civil society. This kid had a number of options. Telling a teacher, telling a LEO, convincing his mother to leave, running away. Shooting his father was not an acceptable one, no matter how much of a scumbag the guy was.
Ok, first of all, we are talking about a 10 year old CHILD. Not an adult who can make those decisions to tell someone else, and to know who to tell.

Second of all, the judge hasn't "agreed" about anything yet. He has yet to sentence the kid.

Third, I can still disagree with a judge's decision that what the kid did was strictly "illegal."

Quote:
This kid made a choice. He chose that instead of getting help from outside and having them intervene, he would violate his father's right to life, the one right that all people hold most sacred. He had no right to do this, and as such he should be incarcerated, he attempts to solve his problems by resorting to violence (which he has proven that by his other actions, such as trying to strangle his teacher) and is thus a danger to the rest of society.
The kid was most likely abused. His mother was abused. The right to life, like any other right, is not absolute. Especially if you are using that life to harm or threaten others. Children are more sacred than the lives of adult neo-Nazis who abuse their families.

Quote:
Does that mean that he should not get help? No. Part of his daily life wherever he ends up should be rehibilitation, but he should not be out on the streets where he can attack others either, and nor should his be applauded for his reprehensible actions.
"Out on the streets?" Where did I ever say he should be "out on the streets?"

Quote:
This doesn't mean that the father was any better, he created a kid a that knows only violence as a solution to his problems. He was an abuser and probably worse, but he should have gone to jail. His son had no right to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner. No one has that right, which is why we lock up those that think they do.
And finally, again, this is a ten year-old child who obviously has problems. Not an adult with a stable mind. The father probably should have been in jail, but he wasn't. He wasn't in jail any more than that guy who broke into a woman's home in Florida when she shot him 6 times.

"Playing judge, jury, and executioner?" Where do you even come up with THAT? My point was, it was probably a case of self-defense. Just like that woman in Florida. It would be like arguing that woman "is not judge jury or executioner." Huh? Ok....
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Old 21st January 2013, 01:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nihilianth View Post

And finally, again, this is a ten year-old child who obviously has problems. Not an adult with a stable mind.
I'm astounded that more people don't see things this way. Some are carrying on like this kid is a cold blooded assassin.
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Old 21st January 2013, 02:01 PM   #39
Nihilianth
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm astounded that more people don't see things this way. Some are carrying on like this kid is a cold blooded assassin.
Ya know, I couldn't figure out how to respond to the "he isn't judge, jury, or executioner" line PhantomWolf threw at me. But I think you hit it on the head: This kid is not some kind of cold-blooded assassin who planned this out. Furthermore, I think this is a case where I can see that the kid probably seized on an opportunity to rid himself of someone who causes him pain and suffering.

Kind of like a dog. If you hit and abuse a dog throughout it's early life, eventually it will grow up and attack you! It doesn't have any morals, except to protect itself from being hurt. The dog doesn't understand why he's being hit. He doesn't know what he did to deserve it. And he just wants it to stop, and probably will never trust another human ever again. Just like this ten-year kid. He doesn't understand why he was being hurt. He doesn't understand that there are other courses of action that are possible. He probably doesn't trust other adults in any case. But mostly, he wants it stop, and he has every right to make it stop.
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Old 21st January 2013, 02:42 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm astounded that more people don't see things this way. Some are carrying on like this kid is a cold blooded assassin.
I'm astounded that some people seem to think that 10-year olds are nothing more that walking automatons that can only respond to outside stimulos and have no ability to make decisions, like a dog.
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