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Old 9th October 2018, 07:15 PM   #41
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Gives evidence Ayn Rand's ideas were stupid. They served her greedy ass and fooled a lot of other greedy asses and nothing more.
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Old 9th October 2018, 07:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Generally speaking, children of rich parents can study all the time, want for nothing, and probably don't have to do squat at home, while children of poor parents will have to split their time between study and a job, go without necessary study tools and books because their parent can't afford them, and will be expected to help out at home.

The level of social and family pressure makes a huge difference to success.
Another big factor is social and business connections. Being a part of the 'old boy' network can be a huge advantage.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat
while it's indisputable that the rich have advantages, they can still fail, and some of them do. And the best place to look for that isn't in college graduation rates.
True. But when poor people fail they tend to stay down, while the rich can fail and fail and fail again and still come out on top.

And while that study only measured graduation rates, there is a strong correlation between and education and financial success.
Quote:
In a 2015 study by Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis’ Center for Household Financial Stability, it was inferred that wealth is strongly linked with education. The study found that Americans who had an advanced degree were 50 times more likely to become millionaires than those who only have a high school diploma. The odds for a person without a high school diploma of becoming a millionaire were only 1 in 110, while it was 1 in 4.6 and 1 in 2.6 for graduates and post-graduates respectively.
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Old 10th October 2018, 04:40 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
A total screwup with money can certainly fail. But it seems to take either total laziness or just being dumb.
Well, yes. But that's exactly what the OP was purporting to study: dumb rich people, and what happens to them. That they can graduate college means little. It's what happens next which matters.

Quote:
When I first started making good money and understanding a bit better the rules of the game, I couldn't hardly fail. It took me 10 years to put away 100K, it took me 1 year to put away the second 100K. Having money makes it so much easier to make more than if you have none. Nothing, absolutely nothing succeeds like previous success.
Sounds like you were a smart poor person who succeeded. But it would take looking at you later in life to measure that. Which is my point: measure outcomes later in life to capture how far people actually go.

Quote:
I've done pretty well for myself. But it is so bizarre. I struggled like crazy when I was younger. And today, I can check my small portfolio and can have made more in a day than I made in a month on most of the jobs I had. Money begets money. If you don't think it does, you haven't been paying attention.
Sure, but again, that isn't actually the question of the OP.
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Old 10th October 2018, 08:05 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, yes. But that's exactly what the OP was purporting to study: dumb rich people, and what happens to them. That they can graduate college means little. It's what happens next which matters.

Sounds like you were a smart poor person who succeeded. But it would take looking at you later in life to measure that. Which is my point: measure outcomes later in life to capture how far people actually go.

Sure, but again, that isn't actually the question of the OP.
I think you are missing my point. I don't necessarily disagree that graduating from college alone should or could be yardstick to measure. But its not really bad. I was the smart kid from the poor family. But I went to public schools that only held me back since they are forced to to teach to the lowest common denominator or the median level student.

Just getting that college degree changed the game for me. Not that the actual education changed that much for me. I was always a voracious reader and quick learner. It was the sheepskin that made all the difference.

I never forget interviewing for a position in tech sales before I graduated from college. I don't know why this guy even interviewed me. He was great. He grilled me and we talked about everything. Finally, he shook his head and sighed. He told me 'in his mind I was by far the most exceptional candidate for the position he had interviewed and he thought I would do a great job. But that he couldn't give me the job.' I was stunned. I asked him, 'why not?' Because you don't have a degree. I could give you the job and I absolutely think you would do a great job. But in the event you didn't I'm screwed. Whereas, if you had the degree, I'm covered.

The employment agency that got me my first decent paying job with a upward mobility wouldn't even work with people that didn't have degrees unless they would pay their fee. And even then, they weren't likely to have much luck getting them decent jobs. But that didn't mean they couldn't earn a fee.

My education in political science has little to do, no nothing to do with my career. But I still wouldn't have had a career without it.
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Old 10th October 2018, 03:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Expectations go a long way. If you're from a family of lesser means just paying for college seems like a mountain to climb. When you are born into wealth, this isn't a hurdle. Was Judge Kavanaugh ever concerned with how he was going to pay for Yale? George W.Bush wasn't accepted to University of Texas but got into Yale. WTF!! Just imagine that? Can't get into the State School but you get into Yale?

I scored 1420 on my SAT and I never even dreamed of going to an IVY league school. I could barely pay the in state tuition as opposed to the cost of the much more expensive Yale and i doubt 1420 which is a very good SAT score would have been high enough. Most of the Ivy league schools have an admissions structure that open their doors to the smartest of the smartest and the richest of the richest. Those who not only can afford the tuition but from families that spend a lifetime donating to the school. So if your like me at the time with barely two nickels to rub together, I was going to have to have scored in the 1500s, but if you're a 3rd or 4th generation applying to Yale, maybe a 1200 will see you through.
Gee, from my family, I thought 1500 was low? My father was a carpenter. 5 kids, the girls got Masters, the other boys a couple years each at SDSU. He had 10 grandchildren. 8 got Bachelors degrees, three went on for more- 2 Lawyers, and an M.D. Schools- Brown, Syracuse, Cornell, Davis for law. So it is doable, with ability and ambition.

Then again, there is a nephew, and me. He tests gifted, but is a janitor. "Special" has two meanings, he fit both. And my legs don't like being trapped under a desk. Too bad I never took the PSAT, that is the point where I fell through the cracks. Which would not have been allowed in an upper-crust family. See "expectations" above.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I grew up in a family of 9 boys. All went to college - 1 associates, the rest bachelors and above (3 MBAs, 2 MS in Mech E, one MS Music Ed, and a PhD).

My Dad was a CPA , which helped, also there was a variety of financial aid and scholarships.
Mom was going for a girl, right?
That's how my husband got 3 brothers, no sisters. Then his dad remarried and had 5 girls, no boys.
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Old 10th October 2018, 10:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Median Salaries Listed by Level of Education
Individuals who did not complete high school: Median $27,144
High School Diploma: $37,128
Some college or associate degree: $41,652
Four Year Degree Only (with no graduate work): $60,258
Advanced Degree:
Quote:
$76,440
Wow. My daughter started at more than that straight out of college with a B.S. in Computer Science. THAT'S where the money is now.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:26 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And the bootstraps are metaphoric.
Quote:
Capitalists are no more capable of self-sacrifice than a man is capable of lifting himself up by his own bootstraps.

Vladimir Lenin
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/v...r_lenin_165591

I think Lenin was being sarcastic.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:21 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A guy who never graduates from college but starts his own successful plumbing business should be considered more successful than a guy who graduates college with a poetry degree and works as a Starbucks barista.

Clearly you are not aware of the amount of education required to run a successful business in this day and age.
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Old 11th October 2018, 02:27 PM   #50
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In other breaking news, unattractive guys with money somehow attract beautiful women.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Clearly you are not aware of the amount of education required to run a successful business in this day and age.
You seem to think that a person can only acquire such an education through a formal bachellor's degree program. That is not the case.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Gee, from my family, I thought 1500 was low? My father was a carpenter. 5 kids, the girls got Masters, the other boys a couple years each at SDSU. He had 10 grandchildren. 8 got Bachelors degrees, three went on for more- 2 Lawyers, and an M.D. Schools- Brown, Syracuse, Cornell, Davis for law. So it is doable, with ability and ambition.

Then again, there is a nephew, and me. He tests gifted, but is a janitor. "Special" has two meanings, he fit both. And my legs don't like being trapped under a desk. Too bad I never took the PSAT, that is the point where I fell through the cracks. Which would not have been allowed in an upper-crust family. See "expectations" above.
1500 and above would put you in the 99th percentile of people taking the test. My lowly 1420 would have me in the 95 percentile. And I never studied for the test. And actually didn't have a clue you could study for it. It wasn't until I was in college did I learn that people actually studied and did prepare for the course.
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Old 12th October 2018, 05:30 PM   #53
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US Presidents since 1980:
Senile rich actor.
Dumb rich guy.
Smart poor guy.
Dumb rich guy, son of the previous DRG.
Smart poor guy.
Insane rich guy.
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Old 12th October 2018, 06:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
US Presidents since 1980:
Senile rich actor.
Dumb rich guy.
Smart poor guy.
Dumb rich guy, son of the previous DRG.
Smart poor guy.
Insane rich guy.
George Bush Sr certainly was NOT dumb. His Vice President was though. I dont think his son was either although he did a poor job leading.
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Old 12th October 2018, 06:13 PM   #55
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POTUS isn't the furthest that a person can go with their career. It's a stepping stone.
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Old 12th October 2018, 06:14 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
US Presidents since 1980:
Senile rich actor.
Dumb rich guy.
Smart poor guy.
Dumb rich guy, son of the previous DRG.
Smart poor guy.
Insane rich guy.
To be fair, neither Clinton nor Obama were poor when they took office. Reagan was raised in a poor family too. Found success as an adult then went in to politics. Other than politically, I don’t think HW was dumb either.
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Old 12th October 2018, 06:19 PM   #57
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Maybe Treb wasn't trying to be serious.
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Old 12th October 2018, 06:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe Treb wasn't trying to be serious.
Not entirely, obviously. At least I hope so.
Bush I was dumb enough to say "Read my lips: No new taxes." but smart enough to change that when it was good for the country. That cost him the presidency.
Clinton was perhaps the highest IQ president in history and too foolish to keep his zipper up.
Bush II, well, perhaps the years of alcohol and cocaine abuse did something to his brain. But he was at least smart enough to marginalize the Cheney/Rumsfeld axis his last couple of years.
Obama is pretty brilliant, but not brilliant enough not to have repeated the Clinton mistake of pushing for medical insurance reform too early, handing the R's control of Congress in his first mid-term. In a census year, which resulted in massive gerrymandering.
And I've said repeatedly in this forum that Trump isn't necessarily unintelligent. But he's insanely ignorant.

ETA: I don't think anyone can be elected if poor at the time. Clinton and Obama were already successful lawyers and politicians.
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Old 12th October 2018, 07:13 PM   #59
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When I was a kid we were told that anybody could become President and that being wealthy wasn't a requirement. It was a form of encouragement that could be said to any kid and maybe especially poor underprivileged kids.
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Old 13th October 2018, 07:10 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
When I was a kid we were told that anybody could become President and that being wealthy wasn't a requirement. It was a form of encouragement that could be said to any kid and maybe especially poor underprivileged kids.
They used to tell the slaves they could go to Heaven when they died.
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Old 13th October 2018, 08:02 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They used to tell the slaves they could go to Heaven when they died.
That's actually a pretty funny retort. Kudos!
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Old 13th October 2018, 01:54 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
POTUS isn't the furthest that a person can go with their career. It's a stepping stone.
Have any Presidents recently advanced their careers beyond some inconsequential speaking engagements and book deals?
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Old 13th October 2018, 03:57 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
1500 and above would put you in the 99th percentile of people taking the test. ...
Yup. We can't help it, it in our genes.
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Old 13th October 2018, 05:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Have any Presidents recently advanced their careers beyond some inconsequential speaking engagements and book deals?
Sometimes career advancement is increasing your income. This happens after being President.
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Old 13th October 2018, 06:27 PM   #65
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No comment on the problem of identifying genetic markers of intelligence?
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Old 13th October 2018, 06:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They used to tell the slaves they could go to Heaven when they died.
Just to ****** heaven, of course. Which is two or three steps below Mormon heaven, at the least.
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Old 13th October 2018, 07:29 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
No comment on the problem of identifying genetic markers of intelligence?
The factoids I've seen say "Super intelligence", like the 1/1,000 is not heritable, but that "High intelligence" is. Not sure where they drew the line.

But the point that is relevant to this thread is that it is not just income level or social standing, Intelligence is another variable in attaining "success". Especially if your measure is education level.

And all other variable are trumped by the one- Ambition.
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Old 13th October 2018, 07:36 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sometimes career advancement is increasing your income. This happens after being President.
Fair enough, but I would consider that a retirement perk rather than career advancment
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Old 13th October 2018, 08:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The factoids I've seen say "Super intelligence", like the 1/1,000 is not heritable, but that "High intelligence" is. Not sure where they drew the line.

But the point that is relevant to this thread is that it is not just income level or social standing, Intelligence is another variable in attaining "success". Especially if your measure is education level.

And all other variable are trumped by the one- Ambition.
Links please. Studies I have seen in the past regarding genetics and intelligence don't account for critical confounding factors.
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Old 13th October 2018, 10:47 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Just to ****** heaven, of course. Which is two or three steps below Mormon heaven, at the least.
Everything I know about Mormon heaven I gleaned from the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. The good news: there will be attractive people there! The bad news: it will be the same few attractive people copied many times.
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Old 14th October 2018, 11:03 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A guy who never graduates from college but starts his own successful plumbing business should be considered more successful than a guy who graduates college with a poetry degree and works as a Starbucks barista.
Not that I'm disagreeing, but why, exactly? Because he is an entrepreneur providing an essential service, rather than an employee making caffeinated beverages? What if he's a real kick-ass barista and inspiring poet? At least he doesn't have to make No. 2 disappear.
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Old 14th October 2018, 11:08 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sometimes career advancement is increasing your income. This happens after being President.
I don't think that's how career advancement works. Income and advancement are usually correlated, but your assumed causality isn't there in my opinion.
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Old 14th October 2018, 12:35 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Not that I'm disagreeing, but why, exactly? Because he is an entrepreneur providing an essential service, rather than an employee making caffeinated beverages? What if he's a real kick-ass barista and inspiring poet? At least he doesn't have to make No. 2 disappear.
Different people have different notions of what constitutes success. Some people regard their total income as the prime metric, others regard it as doing what they like, others hold family more important, others look to degrees and awards, others to popular acclaim. Some people just want to be happy.
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Old 14th October 2018, 01:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Not that I'm disagreeing, but why, exactly? Because he is an entrepreneur providing an essential service, rather than an employee making caffeinated beverages? What if he's a real kick-ass barista and inspiring poet? At least he doesn't have to make No. 2 disappear.
Because the interest here is economic success, and the plumber will make more money. More intangible measures of success like happiness are harder to measure and don't split along class lines so neatly.
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Old 15th October 2018, 07:17 PM   #75
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Isn't the whole point of becoming wealthy and successful so that your progeny will have an easier go of it than you did?
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Old 16th October 2018, 12:01 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Isn't the whole point of becoming wealthy and successful so that your progeny will have an easier go of it than you did?
No.

It's one point. Not the point.

People without progeny strive too.
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Old 16th October 2018, 12:07 AM   #77
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Isn't the whole point of becoming wealthy and successful so that your progeny will have an easier go of it than you did?
Most successful people don't want their children to have it easier, just safer: success doesn't happen in a Comfort Zone.
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