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Old 17th October 2018, 09:35 AM   #81
Ron Swanson
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Letting someone you do not know IN your apartment building, is EXACTLY the same thing as Buzzing in EVERYONE who rings up your apartment without talking them.
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Old 17th October 2018, 09:39 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Should she let me in?
No she should have asked without being an idiot about and dropped it the moment the guy showed who he was. For all the handwringing I'd wager if she had just acted like a human being and just... asked nicely this probably would have resolved itself in some way that wouldn't make the news.

You ask me if I'm supposed to be in semi-public/semi-private transitional space in a reasonable tone and a reasonable manner and I, like most people, probably will work with you to clarify the situation. Stride up to me like you have some inherent right to judge my ability to be in that space, as if I'm obligated to justify my status to you personally and I will not.

And here's the thing... she was wrong. "But... I could have been right" only takes you so far. If you're gonna take the role of Door Guardian upon yourself, probably a good idea to at least sorta vaguely know your neighbors.
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Old 17th October 2018, 09:40 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the long video, I see him quickly hold his hand up at 1:31 showing the keyring with the fob. Thing is, it is in his palm and the back of his hand faces her. She wouldn't have seen it.
Nope. Notwithstanding that the camera field of view is quite limited - he held ONE single item hanging from his keychain behind his hand while lifting the others in the air in plain sight of her. He holds up the chain at the precise moment he is explaining "I already buzzed in". Toles later reported to the police that he HAD in fact shown her the fob.

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Old 17th October 2018, 09:52 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Nope. Notwithstanding that the camera field of view is quite limited - he held ONE single item hanging from his keychain behind his hand while lifting the others in the air in plain sight of her. He holds up the chain at the precise moment he is explaining "I already buzzed in". Toles later reported to the police that he HAD in fact shown her the fob.
Yeah, that one item looks like the gob in question. The other things were keys and tags.

Has his claim of having already buzzed in been confirmed by the building? That would certainly change things
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Old 17th October 2018, 09:59 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No she should have asked without being an idiot about and dropped it the moment the guy showed who he was...
Ok, so you agree she should not let some stranger through the security door.

I think its pretty clear that either he did not show the fob, or at least she did not see it. The video is certainly not clear on this.

So, for you, it comes down to her politeness? Did she seem really rude, prior to being pushed, and assuming she did not see his fob?
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Old 17th October 2018, 10:04 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, so you agree she should not let some stranger through the security door.
I'm not going to get trapped in some binary yes or no of that nature.

I'm saying there were so many ways to determine if that guy was legit or not that weren't the way she handled it that I'm kind not buying that it was ever about "I don't think this guy is legit to be in this building." That was the excuse, not the reason.

If she was worried about the guy being legit to be in the building "Just politely ask" is where you start.

Again this is another case of someone who is suffering from "Part of me wants this interaction to become a problem because I've got something to prove."

I don't know if it was racism, if she was some sad little king of a sad little hill high on some tiny amount of authority she had as a building manager type person, or what but I don't buy that "honestly worried about the guy being in the building" was before the fact catalyst.

I have a real hard time with arguments that are basically "I was worried about the situation so I responded in the way most likely to make the situation worse."

If someone runs into the kitchen and sees a grease fire and throws water on it, "Oh so you're saying they should have just let the fire burn?" is not what anyone needs to hear when they say "Putting water on it makes it worse."

This woman poured water on a grease fire. Not buying she was really concerned with putting it out.
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Old 17th October 2018, 10:19 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's possible, but she seems to keep asking as if she hasn't seen it.

Also, I have it on good authority from the Babysitting thread that such a scenario cannot be plausible because it constitutes a 'hypothetical flight of fancy'.
The difference is, in this case the man himself is on video claiming, in the moment, to have done it. What I am saying is, your observation that the keyfob is covered by his hand when it appears in the camera's POV, doesn't really contradict his claim, because it didn't need to be shown in the camera's POV to have happened. Since the man's claim to live there was correct, and we do know for a fact that he has a keyfob, there is really no reason to doubt his repeated assertion that he showed it to her. Meanwhile, we already know Checkpoint Chelsea is fully capable of denying reality she has witnessed, since she called 911 and reported a strange man in her building that she "wasn't sure lived there" after having followed him in the elevator and watched him walk directly to his apartment and open the door with his own key.

If I was going to wholly speculate, it would be along such lines: she realized quite early on in that confrontation - likely when he did show her the keyfob - that he was right about living there and she really had no actual right to be blocking his entrance; and the entire rest of the incident from that moment onward rests upon her feeling "salty" and trying to create or rationalize some reason, any reason, to still be "right" somehow in keeping him out. Or, barring that, to still be "right" in maintaining her authoritative stance - as evidenced by the final phase of her harassment, where she comically pivoted to assertively declaring that she wanted to "get to know him as a neighbor". Anything to avoid having to acknowledge that she has lost face, so to speak.
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Old 17th October 2018, 11:24 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The difference is, in this case the man himself is on video claiming, in the moment, to have done it. What I am saying is, your observation that the keyfob is covered by his hand when it appears in the camera's POV, doesn't really contradict his claim, because it didn't need to be shown in the camera's POV to have happened. Since the man's claim to live there was correct, and we do know for a fact that he has a keyfob, there is really no reason to doubt his repeated assertion that he showed it to her.
He didn't repeat it though. He said it once. If it were me, I would (probably belligerently by then) be shoving it in her face. He didn't contradict her the multiple times she said that 'the key pad was right there' and asking to see the fob.

Yes, the hidden fob does not contradict his claim; it could have been in view earlier. But it doesn't support his claim either, as the only time his filming shows it, it is out of her sight.

Quote:
Meanwhile, we already know Checkpoint Chelsea is fully capable of denying reality she has witnessed, since she called 911 and reported a strange man in her building that she "wasn't sure lived there" after having followed him in the elevator and watched him walk directly to his apartment and open the door with his own key.
I'm actually separating them into two incidents, pre-shove and post-shove. I could understand being incensed about being pushed out of the way and being determined to identify him.

Quote:
If I was going to wholly speculate, it would be along such lines: she realized quite early on in that confrontation - likely when he did show her the keyfob - that he was right about living there and she really had no actual right to be blocking his entrance; and the entire rest of the incident from that moment onward rests upon her feeling "salty" and trying to create or rationalize some reason, any reason, to still be "right" somehow in keeping him out. Or, barring that, to still be "right" in maintaining her authoritative stance - as evidenced by the final phase of her harassment, where she comically pivoted to assertively declaring that she wanted to "get to know him as a neighbor". Anything to avoid having to acknowledge that she has lost face, so to speak.
I can see that. Were I to wholly speculate, I would think that he did try to walk through the already opened door, as anyone would, and she confronted him. He got aggravated, as anyone would, and confrontational ('I don't need to give you that information. I need you to get out the way'), ending with shoving past her. She was then pissed and pretty sure he didn't live there, so followed him, then called police just to be a harassing bitch who was in fact wrong.
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Old 17th October 2018, 11:47 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm actually separating them into two incidents, pre-shove and post-shove. I could understand being incensed about being pushed out of the way and being determined to identify him.
I don't see how that's justified. In her attempt to avoid admitting she was wrong, I could see her drawing that imaginary distinction as an excuse to feel righteously indignant again (and therefore still "right", as mentioned earlier)*; but I don't think it is justified from our third-person, after-the-fact perspective. We know very well this is all one continuous incident; we know that he pushed past her in order to get into his house, where he had a right to be, which was his sole motivation for the entirety of the confrontation.

ETA: to be clear though, although I "could see her" making that distinction, I don't believe she actually did. She also appears to consider the whole thing one continuous incident. I'm deducing this mostly on the fact that in her call to 911, police don't describe her as ever reporting being shoved or assaulted, but rather simply reporting an unauthorized stranger in the building.
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Old 17th October 2018, 11:48 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not going to get trapped in some binary yes or no of that nature.

I'm saying there were so many ways to determine if that guy was legit or not that weren't the way she handled it that I'm kind not buying that it was ever about "I don't think this guy is legit to be in this building." That was the excuse, not the reason.

If she was worried about the guy being legit to be in the building "Just politely ask" is where you start.
It's not a trap, it's an honest question.

We don't see the interaction from the beginning, like so many of these things. Filming starts when the confrontation is underway.

But I'll ask again: does she say anything really rude? In her CNN interview, she says the tenant's association repeatedly tells them to not let anyone they do not know past the security door, and I'm sure she did not have a script ready for this. Did she say anything rude?
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Old 17th October 2018, 11:57 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't see how that's justified. In her attempt to avoid admitting she was wrong, I could see her drawing that imaginary distinction as an excuse to feel righteously indignant again (and therefore still "right", as mentioned earlier)*; but I don't think it is justified from our third-person, after-the-fact perspective. We know very well this is all one continuous incident; we know that he pushed past her in order to get into his house, where he had a right to be, which was his sole motivation for the entirety of the confrontation.

ETA: to be clear though, although I "could see her" making that distinction, I don't believe she actually did. She also appears to consider the whole thing one continuous incident. I'm deducing this mostly on the fact that in her call to 911, police don't describe her as ever reporting being shoved or assaulted, but rather simply reporting an unauthorized stranger in the building.
What I mean by separate incidents is that I can see dispositions changing dramatically after being shoved. No matter who was being a jerk before that, it is simply illegal to push someone aside. She has not made an issue out of it yet publicly, but I'll bet it comes up eventually.
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Old 17th October 2018, 11:57 AM   #92
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All thy guy had to do was say "Pardon me? .. Oh of course building security is a serious issue" let her close the door and buzz in again.

Then have a conversation in the elevator about the new dryers they got in the laundry room, or how we all hate junk mail, etc.

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Old 17th October 2018, 12:00 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But I'll ask again: does she say anything really rude? In her CNN interview, she says the tenant's association repeatedly tells them to not let anyone they do not know past the security door, and I'm sure she did not have a script ready for this. Did she say anything rude?
Standing in the door and refusing to allow him access, was certainly rude. As was effectively stalking him back to his apartment after he pushed past her, and calling the police to report him as a stranger after it became evident beyond any reasonable doubt he lived there.

Many kinds of buildings have policies that you're not supposed to let people piggyback through locked doors. These policies are intended to make it clear that people should not being doing that deliberately - you shouldn't be willfully holding the door open for people. It's not some kind of warrant or license to physically accost or confront people who seem to be doing it regardless of your wishes. If you're leaving and somebody rushes up and grabs the door before it finishes closing, that's them "breaking the rule", but it's not your problem OR your responsibility to "deal with".
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Old 17th October 2018, 12:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Standing in the door and refusing to allow him access, was certainly rude. As was effectively stalking him back to his apartment after he pushed past her, and calling the police to report him as a stranger after it became evident beyond any reasonable doubt he lived there.

Many kinds of buildings have policies that you're not supposed to let people piggyback through locked doors. These policies are intended to make it clear that people should not being doing that deliberately - you shouldn't be willfully holding the door open for people. It's not some kind of warrant or license to physically accost or confront people who seem to be doing it regardless of your wishes. If you're leaving and somebody rushes up and grabs the door before it finishes closing, that's them "breaking the rule", but it's not your problem OR your responsibility to "deal with".
Agreed, but what if you let someone in who turned out to be bad news? If it showed up on surveillance video that they jumped in behind you, would you be entirely innocent of providing them access?

I play a fun game (usually just for fun) of beating security personnel and systems, and having your hands full while walking up to a door is a reliable standby means of getting through a security door. People fall over themselves to hold the door open for you.
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Old 17th October 2018, 12:12 PM   #95
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I don't find it rude at all. It did not seem to me from the video (which, obviously, only represents a portion of the interaction) that the young woman was excercising anything other than a normal amount of vigilance with regards to preventing the man doing the recording from entering her residence.
I feel like the man trying to enter her residence could have easily diffused the situation by letting the door shut, then buzzing himself in. If he wished to call her a bitch afterward, that is certainly his prerogative.

WRT calling the police, I find it rediculous that she would do so once he had produced a key and entered his unit. I don't know, however, if the call was made after that point-or earlier in the confrontation.
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Old 17th October 2018, 12:23 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No matter who was being a jerk before that, it is simply illegal to push someone aside.
I don't think the situation is that black-and-white. He does not appear to strike or shove her away from himself, but only uses exactly as much physical effort as is required to get through the door past her, after which without hesitation he proceeds straight to his room while she continues to follow him. I don't think this would pass the "reasonable person standard" for meeting the level of offensive contact required for a battery charge. People pushing their way through dense crowds in a similar manner aren't behaving illegally either; otherwise masses of people would be getting arrested on Black Friday at Walmart simply for being in line.
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Old 17th October 2018, 12:30 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed, but what if you let someone in who turned out to be bad news? If it showed up on surveillance video that they jumped in behind you, would you be entirely innocent of providing them access?
Yes. Of course, yes. It will be fairly obvious on any kind of security footage whether you actually held the door open deliberately for the person, as opposed to somebody raced to take advantage of the door not having finished closing yet. In the latter case, yes you are completely innocent, for reasons I have already described: as a normal person, there are simply limits on what you can be expected, or are even legally permitted, to do to physically detain or hold up some other person.

Same rule, different scenario: I'm sure the apartment managers cannot insist you simply cannot ever leave the building to go about your business if you see a stranger waiting on the other side of the door who is doubtlessly waiting to take advantage of your egress to make ingress.
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Old 17th October 2018, 12:55 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I don't find it rude at all. It did not seem to me from the video (which, obviously, only represents a portion of the interaction) that the young woman was excercising anything other than a normal amount of vigilance with regards to preventing the man doing the recording from entering her residence.
I feel like the man trying to enter her residence could have easily diffused the situation by letting the door shut, then buzzing himself in. If he wished to call her a bitch afterward, that is certainly his prerogative.

WRT calling the police, I find it rediculous that she would do so once he had produced a key and entered his unit. I don't know, however, if the call was made after that point-or earlier in the confrontation.
You don't find someone blocking your entry into your home and demanding to know your name and specific apartment number rude? Nor, say, continuing to follow you AFTERWARD while refusing to accept your claim that you live there and instead demanding "Who are you visiting here?"
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Old 17th October 2018, 01:58 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I'm not sure where my NPC outrage is supposed to go....On the one hand, she's white and he's black, but on the other hand he is a he and she is a she. How does the Stack rule?
The world has gone PC mad I tell ya. You cant say anything these days without being branded a racist, sexist, homophobe... eleventy!!!1

The context of African Americans having a history of being stymied from renting or moving into white neighbourhoods is surely so obvious it need not be made explicit?
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:15 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What is the point of a locked security door if tenants hold it open for any random stranger?
Well it's clearly not to prevent any and all "random strangers" from entering because they would've had security posted at the entrance in order to do that. I should note that in the apartment building i live in the vast majority of the other residents would be "random strangers" to me.

Quite often having the entrances into apartment complexes locked, either all the time or only at night, is done to prevent homeless people from entering and basically sleeping or using drugs there.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:38 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
You don't find someone blocking your entry into your home and demanding to know your name and specific apartment number rude? Nor, say, continuing to follow you AFTERWARD while refusing to accept your claim that you live there and instead demanding "Who are you visiting here?"
No, I don't find someone blocking my entry into their home rude. And If I push my way into their home, I don't find it rude that they verify that I have business there.

Especially when I could simply have let them close the door, then entered without hassle.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:49 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
No, I don't find someone blocking my entry into their home rude. And If I push my way into their home, I don't find it rude that they verify that I have business there.

Especially when I could simply have let them close the door, then entered without hassle.
She was blocking his entry into his home.

As for rude, I would simply have told her to **** off and then ignored her.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:54 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
She was blocking his entry into his home.

As for rude, I would simply have told her to **** off and then ignored her.
She was blocking his entry into her home.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:57 PM   #104
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Can we agree to 'their access way to both of their homes'?
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:07 PM   #105
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Fair enough. She was still an idiot.
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:12 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well it's clearly not to prevent any and all "random strangers" from entering because they would've had security posted at the entrance in order to do that. I should note that in the apartment building i live in the vast majority of the other residents would be "random strangers" to me.
24/7 security posted? Expensive. Electronic lock? Cheap. Other tenants being strangers is no problem as long as everyone swipes in. Easy peasy.

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Quite often having the entrances into apartment complexes locked, either all the time or only at night, is done to prevent homeless people from entering and basically sleeping or using drugs there.
Could be. Could also be for the security of the tenants.
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Can we agree to 'their access way to both of their homes'?
Not really.
Since the young woman was already inside, it could be assumed by both that she "belonged" there, thus the gentleman would know that this was likely her home.

Since the young woman claimed that she did not see the gentleman swipe in, he could also reason that of the two of them the only one who "belonged" there in a way that would be clear to both of them was her. The onus was upon him to show that he was an actual resident. Which he could have done easily by taking a step back, allowing the door to close, and swiping in. Instead he chose to confront-then push by, perhaps because he resented being challenged in the first place.

More simply put, the only one of the two people that they both recognized as being in their own home was her. (A bystander observing the two of them would likely reach the same conclusion) it is, therefore, more accurate to say that she attempted to block his access to her residence.
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:44 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not really.
Since the young woman was already inside, it could be assumed by both that she "belonged" there, thus the gentleman would know that this was likely her home.

Since the young woman claimed that she did not see the gentleman swipe in, he could also reason that of the two of them the only one who "belonged" there in a way that would be clear to both of them was her. The onus was upon him to show that he was an actual resident. Which he could have done easily by taking a step back, allowing the door to close, and swiping in. Instead he chose to confront-then push by, perhaps because he resented being challenged in the first place.

More simply put, the only one of the two people that they both recognized as being in their own home was her. (A bystander observing the two of them would likely reach the same conclusion) it is, therefore, more accurate to say that she attempted to block his access to her residence.
I agree, he should have just let the door close and swiped in. He convincingly acted angelic in the OP news interview, but in the full video he was just as confrontational as she was. More so when he pushed her aside. I think a lot of this hinges on whether or not he actually swiped in.
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:11 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
24/7 security posted? Expensive. Electronic lock? Cheap.
Yet it's not going to keep out "random people".

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Other tenants being strangers is no problem as long as everyone swipes in. Easy peasy.
For all I know they stole or copied a key. If I were extremely anxious and fearful of dangerous strangers i would not put much faith in that.
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Old 17th October 2018, 07:23 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I agree, he should have just let the door close and swiped in.
If she was not convinced he was a legitimate resident when he showed the keyfob that would be used to swipe in, or indeed even later when she personally watched as he unlocked the door to his own apartment with his own key, then why must we maintain this delusion that she was a reasonable person and would have been convinced if, as you say, he "let the door close and swiped in" in front of her? After all, he could've easily stolen the keyfob in the same manner by which she later implied to the police that he had possibly stolen the key to his apartment. Doubtless that's what she would have claimed, or insinuated, and continued to deny him access until he met some further-raised bar of "proof".
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:14 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Not really.
Since the young woman was already inside, it could be assumed by both that she "belonged" there, thus the gentleman would know that this was likely her home.

Since the young woman claimed that she did not see the gentleman swipe in, he could also reason that of the two of them the only one who "belonged" there in a way that would be clear to both of them was her. The onus was upon him to show that he was an actual resident. Which he could have done easily by taking a step back, allowing the door to close, and swiping in. Instead he chose to confront-then push by, perhaps because he resented being challenged in the first place.

More simply put, the only one of the two people that they both recognized as being in their own home was her. (A bystander observing the two of them would likely reach the same conclusion) it is, therefore, more accurate to say that she attempted to block his access to her residence.
*Pushes up glasses* well actually. He knew he belonged. She may have been there stalking an ex boyfriend and trying to collect alimony for their pet dog Wuffles the wonder Toy Schoodle. (Schnouser, chiouiua, Toy poodle mix).

It was his home as much as hers and both did not know each other from a bar of soap. How was he to know that she was not delaying him so her partner in crime could finish ransacking his apartment of his collection of premium ming era key fobs. The reason she wanted to see his fob instead of stepping back and closing the door was so she could confirm it was him and warn her partner in crime using her transceiver cleverly disguised as a schih tzu bichtzu. ( two parts schih tzu one part bichon frise)

So IOW you're wrong.

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Old 18th October 2018, 06:22 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If she was not convinced he was a legitimate resident when he showed the keyfob that would be used to swipe in,...
Toles claims this after the fact. In the video, for the first time she asks to see the key fob, at 1:34, he answers 'I'm not showing you anything'.

He quickly holds the ring up once, with the fob not in her view. She also refutes on the video that he swiped in, and he does not deny or argue that. Based on the video evidence, he did not have and/or would not show his key fob.

Quote:
or indeed even later when she personally watched as he unlocked the door to his own apartment with his own key, then why must we maintain this delusion that she was a reasonable person and would have been convinced if, as you say, he "let the door close and swiped in" in front of her?
Are you sure she saw him use the key to the apartment? It looks like his door was around a corner, and video shows her in the hall, slightly around the corner. From her perspective, the door may have been merely unlocked, perhaps by someone already in the apartment.

Quote:
After all, he could've easily stolen the keyfob in the same manner by which she later implied to the police that he had possibly stolen the key to his apartment. Doubtless that's what she would have claimed, or insinuated, and continued to deny him access until he met some further-raised bar of "proof".
Again, he only claims to have shown the key fob after the fact. In the video he refused. And I'm not sure she saw him use the key, again, based on the vid.

I'm trying to see this from her POV: she apparently lives alone, in an area that reporting has been that other tenants have been mugged right at that door. So she is worried about safety (I don't think she's racist, as current reporting is that she is married to a black man. They're separated or getting divorced). He pushes past her and goes into an apartment, which may have been unlocked or opened from the inside.

Based on the above, which is supported by video, would her actions be entirely unreasonable?
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Old 18th October 2018, 06:32 AM   #113
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This is rapidly turning into the other thread about the cop walking into the wrong apartment was totally in the right because "She could have been right."

"Could have."

Well she could have been right, well she could have been correct, well she could have been this, well she could have been that.

Here's the thing. She wasn't. And that does matter. What happens in the real world just counts more than probabilities that didn't happen.

This is women is not vindicated by every alternate universe that exist where this guy wasn't allowed to be in the building.

Some people are getting a little too obsessed with "Yeah they were wrong, but they could have been right"

I'm not really getting on-board with "Oh I'm only wrong in this timeline where the facts don't agree with me."
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Old 18th October 2018, 06:47 AM   #114
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Mueller said in the interview with the local station that she was only following directions she had been given by the condo association board members when she stopped Toles that night.

"When I noticed an individual that I did not know here, my only thought was to follow directions I had been given by condo association board members repeatedly; and that's to never allow access to anyone that you don't know," she said.

Mueller said she told Toles she couldn't allow him to enter the building and then asked if he had a key fob, which she said is the "only indicator any resident has that they live in the building and he wouldn't answer me."
I wonder if the condo association will admit to giving her that advice?

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Old 18th October 2018, 10:32 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is rapidly turning into the other thread about the cop walking into the wrong apartment was totally in the right because "She could have been right."

"Could have."

Well she could have been right, well she could have been correct, well she could have been this, well she could have been that.

Here's the thing. She wasn't. And that does matter. What happens in the real world just counts more than probabilities that didn't happen.

This is women is not vindicated by every alternate universe that exist where this guy wasn't allowed to be in the building.

Some people are getting a little too obsessed with "Yeah they were wrong, but they could have been right"

I'm not really getting on-board with "Oh I'm only wrong in this timeline where the facts don't agree with me."
'Could have' is not the issue. 'Was' is the issue.

Not letting a stranger past a fob door is what she should have done. Awkward, but reasonable. If Toles did not swipe in or show his fob, she is in the right.

Early on, he tells her not to touch him. One of her hands is on the doorjamb and the other crossed over her chest, so unless he contends she was playing footsie, he was pushing into her almost immediately.

If a stranger off the street tries to push you out of your apartment biding entrance, what should you do?
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
'Could have' is not the issue. 'Was' is the issue.

Not letting a stranger past a fob door is what she should have done. Awkward, but reasonable. If Toles did not swipe in or show his fob, she is in the right.

Early on, he tells her not to touch him. One of her hands is on the doorjamb and the other crossed over her chest, so unless he contends she was playing footsie, he was pushing into her almost immediately.

If a stranger off the street tries to push you out of your apartment biding entrance, what should you do?
Shouldn't you first know everybody in the building before assuming a resident is a stranger?
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:39 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Shouldn't you first know everybody in the building before assuming a resident is a stranger?
Logistically difficult to do. Hence, the easy swipe in feature to confirm residence.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:39 PM   #118
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Show me your fob!

here it is,

have a good day, /tips hat.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:58 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Show me your fob!

here it is,

have a good day, /tips hat.
She followed him to his apartment, watched him unlock the door with his key, and still called the cops to say she didn't think he belonged.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:59 PM   #120
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Thornton is standing in the doorway letting her leashed dog do his business. That's a little disgusting, right outside the entrance. Maybe it was raining outside and she didn't want to walk far? The video also shows glimpses of Toles' jacket, that looks like a hooded raincoat. I wonder if it was raining outside, and Toles naturally was running up to catch the open door and avoid standing in the rain, and felt persecuted that she wouldn't move? Would explain a little.
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