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Old 27th July 2018, 06:22 PM   #1
Fast Eddie B
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Police conduct

Lord knows, we’ve seen a lot of threads on police MISconduct. In them, I sometimes make the case that there is a danger of hastily generalizing isolated cases to make a point about such behavior being common, or even endemic. That it’s hard to measure the extent of the problem without some idea of the number of police encounters that proceed professionally, to establish the ratio of good vs bad encounters.

Here’s a single data point:

Yesterday, I was taking a back road shortcut to an appointment in rural N GA. At an intersection were four police cars. They were conducting a driver’s license check and an officer walked up as I rolled down my window. I immediately said, “Be aware, there’s a 9mm on my passenger seat”. I had put it there temporarily, planning to secure it when I left the car. The officer said, “No problem, just don’t reach for it”. I told him I had a Concealed Weapons Permit, and he replied none would even be necessary for a gun in plain sight. A minute later, he returned my license and said “Have a nice day”. And that was that.

I will stipulate that if I had acted nervously, or maybe just been a minority, things might have gone differently. But encounters like this occur thousands of times a day with no fanfare or public awareness. Just something to keep in mind.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:39 PM   #2
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This policeman impressed me too.
Don’t care what country he’s from, this is a brave, calm, well trained officer.

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Old 27th July 2018, 06:46 PM   #3
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Glad that one turned out well.

My main critique was the officer’s decision to leave the cover of his car. That was an unnecessary risk - there was no rush.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Lord knows, we’ve seen a lot of threads on police MISconduct. In them, I sometimes make the case that there is a danger of hastily generalizing isolated cases to make a point about such behavior being common, or even endemic. That it’s hard to measure the extent of the problem without some idea of the number of police encounters that proceed professionally, to establish the ratio of good vs bad encounters.

Here’s a single data point:

Yesterday, I was taking a back road shortcut to an appointment in rural N GA. At an intersection were four police cars. They were conducting a driver’s license check and an officer walked up as I rolled down my window. I immediately said, “Be aware, there’s a 9mm on my passenger seat”. I had put it there temporarily, planning to secure it when I left the car. The officer said, “No problem, just don’t reach for it”. I told him I had a Concealed Weapons Permit, and he replied none would even be necessary for a gun in plain sight. A minute later, he returned my license and said “Have a nice day”. And that was that.

I will stipulate that if I had acted nervously, or maybe just been a minority, things might have gone differently. But encounters like this occur thousands of times a day with no fanfare or public awareness. Just something to keep in mind.
You drive around with a 9mm sitting next to you on the passenger seat?

Is it loaded?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You drive around with a 9mm sitting next to you on the passenger seat?

Is it loaded?
Sometimes. And yes.
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Old 27th July 2018, 06:55 PM   #6
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So because of this anecdote we are supposed to believe...

What, exactly?
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
So because of this anecdote we are supposed to believe...

What, exactly?
Anything you like.

If positive encounters are never reported, all you have to form an opinion is the negative ones.
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:08 PM   #8
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Most police are honest, professional and act according to the rule of law. Only a minority do not. Unfortunately that minority is much higher in the US than comparable first world countries.
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sometimes. And yes.
May I ask why?

Do you feel threatened? Or is it just a comfort thing?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
May I ask why?

Do you feel threatened? Or is it just a comfort thing?
I was a police officer for 8 1/2 years.

I saw enough situations where a gun would be handy, in defense of one’s self or others, that I choose now to have the option available.

But yes, I’d say having more options does bring me some level of comfort.
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I was a police officer for 8 1/2 years.

I saw enough situations where a gun would be handy, in defense of one’s self or others, that I choose now to have the option available.

But yes, I’d say having more options does bring me some level of comfort.

Ahh

I suppose if you spend that long wearing one round all day it must feel weird not having it.

Cheers
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 28th July 2018, 04:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Lord knows, we’ve seen a lot of threads on police MISconduct. In them, I sometimes make the case that there is a danger of hastily generalizing isolated cases to make a point about such behavior being common, or even endemic. That it’s hard to measure the extent of the problem without some idea of the number of police encounters that proceed professionally, to establish the ratio of good vs bad encounters.

Here’s a single data point:

Yesterday, I was taking a back road shortcut to an appointment in rural N GA. At an intersection were four police cars. They were conducting a driver’s license check and an officer walked up as I rolled down my window. I immediately said, “Be aware, there’s a 9mm on my passenger seat”. I had put it there temporarily, planning to secure it when I left the car. The officer said, “No problem, just don’t reach for it”. I told him I had a Concealed Weapons Permit, and he replied none would even be necessary for a gun in plain sight. A minute later, he returned my license and said “Have a nice day”. And that was that.

I will stipulate that if I had acted nervously, or maybe just been a minority, things might have gone differently. But encounters like this occur thousands of times a day with no fanfare or public awareness. Just something to keep in mind.
You seem to be saying, 'It's OK, Officer. As you can see, I am not one of your ethnic minorities, so can I go now?'

First world problems.
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Old 28th July 2018, 12:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Most police are honest, professional and act according to the rule of law. Only a minority do not. Unfortunately that minority is much higher in the US than comparable first world countries.
Indeed, and US police unions help keep the bent and incompetent officers where they can do the most harm.

I posted this one earlier in the other thread
(Moved youtube link outside quote for easier watching.

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TLDW:
Racist calls cops on skateborders and ends up getting arrested

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile a 2014 video from Portland - with a happy ending

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It is worth watching the cops shake the hands of the skateborders at the end too.
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Old 28th July 2018, 01:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sometimes. And yes.
That seems dangerous. What are the chances you would need the gun vs the chance you'd leave the car with a loaded gun in plain view. I'm sure you take great pains to put it away every time you leave the car, but people forget things all the time, esp. when they're in a rush.
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Old 18th October 2018, 07:07 AM   #15
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Two days ago, CBS News featured a story that praised an officer who did not shoot a teenager with an apparent gun. Turns out it was a BB gun.

Again, not mentioned was a breach in training that put the officer right on top of a subject with a possible gun. Good on him for not shooting, but proper training would have had him position his vehicle at least 30 or 40 feet away, using it for cover as he used voice commands from a distance to disarm the subjects.

Just bringing this up because it seems to represent a common error officers are making, that is often a contributing factor in police shootings.
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Old 18th October 2018, 08:21 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I suppose if you spend that long wearing one round all day it must feel weird not having it.
I have a concealed carry permit, but I rarely ever carry a gun as it feels weird to do so. One of the forum bullies implied I was a liar for making that claim.

Ranb

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Old 18th October 2018, 03:12 PM   #17
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He's dead now, but there was a syndicated columnist named Charley Reese:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Reese

That wrote a column about why he'd prefer to hang around with cops than politicians.

The reason? He had never met a politician in his life that was an avowed racist that risked his life by jumping into a body of water in-between a boat and a pier to save a black kid from drowning.
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Old 18th October 2018, 10:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have a concealed carry permit, but I rarely ever carry a gun as it feels weird to do so. One of the forum bullies implied I was a liar for making that claim.

Ranb
If I may enquire, under what circumstances or situations do you carry?
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I have a concealed carry permit, but I rarely ever carry a gun as it feels weird to do so. One of the forum bullies implied I was a liar for making that claim.

Ranb
I believe you. When I got my carry permit, I was extremely self-conscious about carrying a gun. It took maybe a month to get used to it and for the constant awareness of having it on me to dissipate. I do carry it (S&W Bodyguard .380 w/laser) with the external thumb safety engaged at all times, which blocks the trigger as well as locking the slide closed. That makes it completely safe for me as well as everyone else I'm around. Of course, that means I won't be making any quick draws to shoot because the safety is very stiff and kind of hard to disengage. But, initially carrying it without the safety on was one of the things that made me nervous.
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Old 20th October 2018, 09:16 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Most police are honest, professional and act according to the rule of law. Only a minority do not. Unfortunately that minority is much higher in the US than comparable first world countries.
*cough*Queensland*cough*
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Old 20th October 2018, 09:27 PM   #21
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I fail to understand why we should applaud anyone for just doing their job right.

It's not difficult.
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Old 20th October 2018, 10:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I fail to understand why we should applaud anyone for just doing their job right.

It's not difficult.
Really? Easy for a keyboard warrior to say, perhaps if every time you went to work you knew that it was probable that someone was going to try to fight, attack, stab, or shoot you, you might feel different about that.
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Old 20th October 2018, 11:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Really? Easy for a keyboard warrior to say, perhaps if every time you went to work you knew that it was probable that someone was going to try to fight, attack, stab, or shoot you, you might feel different about that.
I have a bigger chance of getting hurt or killed in my current job than police officers in any western country.

I suppose that means that I'm excused for pretty much anything I do, up to and including murder?

That's cool.
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Old 20th October 2018, 11:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I have a bigger chance of getting hurt or killed in my current job than police officers in any western country.

I suppose that means that I'm excused for pretty much anything I do, up to and including murder?

That's cool.
Hurt, or attacked?

Killed, or Murdered?
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Old 21st October 2018, 01:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Hurt, or attacked?

Killed, or Murdered?
What difference does it make? A broken is a broken bone. Dead is dead.

Injury or death is somehow worse for a cop? Because when they signed up for the job, they had no idea that being a cop might come with some risks?
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Old 21st October 2018, 03:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
What difference does it make? A broken is a broken bone. Dead is dead.

Injury or death is somehow worse for a cop? Because when they signed up for the job, they had no idea that being a cop might come with some risks?
It makes a lot of difference. If you are a lumberjack you can make sure that you stay clear of falling trees and heavy machinery. If you are a crab fisherman you can make sure that the boat is sea worthy and the captain not insane, you can always take precautions against accidents, it's the reason that OSHA exists in the US (OSH here). I have worked for companies that do extremely dangerous things and H&S is a priority for them, they are always looking at finding and eliminating hazards.

Cops can't do that. Any traffic stop could end up with the person being stopped pulling out an AR-15 and trying to put 17 rounds into them. There are no precautions that you can take to prevent it. You get called to a domestic and your knock on the door is answered by rounds fired from a Glock 9 mm.

If you have 30,000 people attacked with deadly weapons in your profession every year in the US, 10,000 of those with firearms, or are in the military, then you might be able to compare, but claiming that because you aren't willing to sort out the solvable hazards that you can avoid through good planning that you are in a tougher job than a group of people that have one of them getting shot at on average once an hour..... sorry don't believe you.
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Old 21st October 2018, 04:36 AM   #27
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Someone tried to start a thread like this before. I did not go well.
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Old 21st October 2018, 05:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I fail to understand why we should applaud anyone for just doing their job right.
It was not my intent to “applaud” anyone.

Only to provide balance and perspective.

Stipulated that individual officers respond poorly or even criminally during encounters with the public. But since typically the only encounters we hear about are the ones gone wrong, it may give a false impression as to their frequency.

We need background for perspective. If one in ten encounters ends in a shooting or use of force, there’s clearly a big problem. But suppose it’s one in a thousand? One in ten thousand? It makes a difference and I still feel some jump to conclusions based on very limited information.
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Old 21st October 2018, 01:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I fail to understand why we should applaud anyone for just doing their job right.

It's not difficult.
I applaud people for doing their jobs right, doubly so when it's dangerous or difficult. If you do a dangerous and difficult job well then I applaud you for it.

I also applaud the call centre workers at Carole Nash for being polite, helpful and making the unpleasant job of sorting out motor insurance more bearable.

Dealing with competent people is always worth celebrating, if only for it's novelty value.
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Old 21st October 2018, 04:01 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
...Dealing with competent people is always worth celebrating, if only for it's novelty value.
Or for encouraging others to give it a try as an alternative for their current work ethic.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 07:09 PM   #31
Ranb
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I believe you. When I got my carry permit, I was extremely self-conscious about carrying a gun. ....
For me it was like I always needed to have my guard up while carrying. It was not that I was afraid of anything but rather that I didn't want to expose the pistol or lose it. While I was very unlikely to lose the gun as it was kept secure on my person, I was never able to relax. After a while I thought, "why bother?"

A few years later I found myself at the rifle range staring at a man who stole a rifle and was waving it around in a threatening manner. And all I had on me was a radio. But it ended well as another range officer had his pistol and we were able to restrain the man until the police took him away.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 10:02 PM   #32
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On police conduct: Friend of mine once tried to commit suicide and sent me her only suicide note; she was living in a distant city at an address unknown to me at the time. After hours of frantically trying to reach family members who knew specifically where she lived, we found her address and contacted the police. The police broke into her residence and literally saved her life.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:11 AM   #33
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
For me it was like I always needed to have my guard up while carrying. It was not that I was afraid of anything but rather that I didn't want to expose the pistol or lose it. While I was very unlikely to lose the gun as it was kept secure on my person, I was never able to relax. After a while I thought, "why bother?"
Clearly an individual thing.

My 9mm fits in pocket holster. Once there, in day-to-day carry, I rarely think of it at all - its just there.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 12:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Cops can't do that. Any traffic stop could end up with the person being stopped pulling out an AR-15 and trying to put 17 rounds into them. There are no precautions that you can take to prevent it. You get called to a domestic and your knock on the door is answered by rounds fired from a Glock 9 mm.
I think this is a bit OT, but yeah, cops can train for safety, too. There are precautions they can and do take to reduce their risks.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 03:38 PM   #35
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think this is a bit OT, but yeah, cops can train for safety, too. There are precautions they can and do take to reduce their risks.
Officer Safety had major emphasis in the 9-month Police Academy I attended.

Many procedures that keep officers safe keep the public safer as well.
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Old 24th October 2018, 07:06 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Officer Safety had major emphasis in the 9-month Police Academy I attended.

Many procedures that keep officers safe keep the public safer as well.
Exactly shooting anyone who has a gun makes everyone safer. Shame the officer you ran into didn't panic in fear like the training tells them to.
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Old 24th October 2018, 09:14 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly shooting anyone who has a gun makes everyone safer. Shame the officer you ran into didn't panic in fear like the training tells them to.
Actually, it is often when the officers fail to follow safety protocol that they end up shooting someone. If they follow safety protocol they are less likely to find themselves in need of shooting.
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Old 24th October 2018, 09:23 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Actually, it is often when the officers fail to follow safety protocol that they end up shooting someone. If they follow safety protocol they are less likely to find themselves in need of shooting.
Since when does need have anything to do with the terror that justifies their shooting? I mean you can play simon says with someone for 5 minutes and kill him and have it all be fine legally and have no serious impact on your career, so it certainly seems to not be a big deal about following protocol.
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Old 24th October 2018, 09:29 AM   #39
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Police conduct, but around here we use copper cables.

Perhaps “copper” is confusing.
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Old 25th October 2018, 05:20 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly shooting anyone who has a gun makes everyone safer. Shame the officer you ran into didn't panic in fear like the training tells them to.
I don't know. Do you think that shooting a drunk with a gun who fired on the police, hitting one of them in the leg, would make everyone else safer?

How about when a 24-year old decides to have a shoot out with police rather than being arrested on a warrant?

Or perhaps shooting the guy with a knife who had just fatally stabbed his girlfriend?

Or perhaps everyone might be safer after the police shot a guy that decided that the appropriate action to a traffic stop was to open fire on the officer who stopped him?

Could be that everyone was safer after an off duty cop shot and killed an armed bank robber?

How about the guy that shot his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach and then fired on cops twice when they arrived?

You think perhaps someone felt safer after a guy that had just shot and killed one person, and wounded another was killed in a shoot out with the police shortly afterwards?

Or perhaps everyone might be safer after the police shot a guy that decided that the appropriate action to a traffic stop was to open fire on the officer who stopped him, wounding him in the process? (Hang on didn't we already do that one? Seems that shooting the Officer who stopped you is kind of common....)

Maybe everyone is safer without the guy that decided that being served a warrant deserved a response of attacking officers with a baseball bat and an axe. I guess that was better than trying to have a shoot out over it.

What about the guy that forced his way into his estranged wife's home with a gun, and then after fleeing her apartment, opened fire on the deputies that were sent to investigate, killing one and injuring the other?

Maybe the guy that tried armed robbery of an off duty cop with his mate?

And heck, that's just a selection of the people from a two month period!
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