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Old 14th April 2018, 12:22 PM   #81
casebro
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I don't think they release guys with a strong case against them on $50K bail.
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:27 PM   #82
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And re: the audio-: Did it pick up whatever the kid said? Did he say anything? Or was he intending to ask directions, but never had the chance? Or did he say something that got interpreted as scarey?
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And re: the audio-: Did it pick up whatever the kid said? Did he say anything? Or was he intending to ask directions, but never had the chance? Or did he say something that got interpreted as scarey?
I'm more interested in the reaction of the Mrs. If she was full blown hysterical, that might justify his reaction, and lead to an acquittal. Not saying it should, just that I could see it happening.
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:58 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Interestingly, the population of this small city is only 2.5 percent African American and 1 percent Latino. For this couple, seeing a black kid on their porch must have looked like the end of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester_Hills,_Michigan
It's on the outskirts of Detroit. You can say this was a white enclave in Detroit, but it's not some isolated town in the boonies.

From your link:
Quote:
in the northern outskirts of Metropolitan Detroit area.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
I don't think the kid's story is strange - his mother was at work, he probably didn't want to bother her and being 14 also didn't want to get told off for over sleeping. Dopey teenagers can get lost anywhere. I once got lost at that age taking the dog for a walk on a straight road.
Report said she took his phone away or didn't allow him to take it to school.


As for being lost, what is wrong with people who don't believe that? Any of you that have kids who don't drive, ask them how to get somewhere you drive them to all the time. More than a few of them will have no clue. When you are only a passenger it's common people don't learn routes.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:08 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's true. My kid's scoutmaster once gave the kids, who were at that time 12 or 13 years old, an assignment to give directions to a local restaurant, verbally. None of them could do it, even though they all knew of the existence of the restaurant, it being on the nearest main road from our residential neighborhood.

I wouldn't say the kid's story is bizarre, but it is quite odd. At the very least, the kid had to have some idea of the distance involved, and merely setting out on a four mile walk would be an odd thing to do. Also, if one is inclined to ask for directions, asking at a business would be more common than asking at a residence.

I think the most likely explanation is that the kid is telling the truth about how and why he got onto that porch, but if I were involved with the case in an official capacity, I would be looking to see if there is any evidence of the second most likely explanation.
Why is it odd? It's not impossible to walk 3 or 4 miles. And it doesn't take that long.

Kid misses bus, starts walking, a couple blocks down the route he realizes he doesn't know where the bus goes next.

Or, a couple blocks along the route he varies from it hoping for a shorter more direct route.

Nothing odd there, especially at 14. And a black 14 yr old that lives in a white neighborhood, you could assume they are middle class, he goes to a white school, he's only 14. While it's possible, white or black for kids to be burglars, it would still be much odder for this middle class 14 yr old to be casing homes for daytime robberies.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:13 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
....Well, the possibility of a warning shot wouldn't be very significant. It's very rare that warning shots "accidentally" hit their victims....
There's a reason it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a heavily populated area. The shot might not be aimed at the victim, but there are many people nearby it could hit.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:17 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by WXYZ 7 Detroit
"I saw it. I saw him holding it like this through the window and I guess I put my hand up, I don’t really remember, and I started to run," Brennan Walker says. "I looked back behind me I saw him aiming at me and I turned back. I turned back and I heard the gunshot. And I tried to run faster."
Accelerate!
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:18 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
He wasn't reacting to the kid at his door, he was reacting to his wife's reaction. Not saying he is in the right, not even close, but it's a factor. I still want to see the video.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read that the Zeigler house was broken into twice in 2009. That may have put him into a permanent mode of defending the castle even when it might not be so rational.
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Perhaps the "burglar" had a 'break and enter' tool in his hand, looked like a weapon to the Mrs. ?

Do we know the address for the kid, where his bus stop was? It might back up the kid's story. Or destroy it.
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I'm more interested in the reaction of the Mrs. If she was full blown hysterical, that might justify his reaction, and lead to an acquittal. Not saying it should, just that I could see it happening.
I hear Skittles looks like a gun.



Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Exactly my point.
Then you missed the sarcasm.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:22 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I don't think they release guys with a strong case against them on $50K bail.
Seriously? I'm surprised you don't know much about bail.

It's not about the case against you. The arraignment judge doesn't even see the evidence, only the charges. Bail is high if you are a flight risk or you pose a danger. I don't imagine the judge thought this guy was going to go do it again any time soon.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
. While it's possible, white or black for kids to be burglars, it would still be much odder for this middle class 14 yr old to be casing homes for daytime robberies.
That's a point. Solitary burgling while playing hooky from school isn't exactly a 14 year old typical M. O.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Seriously? I'm surprised you don't know much about bail.

It's not about the case against you. The arraignment judge doesn't even see the evidence, only the charges. Bail is high if you are a flight risk or you pose a danger. I don't imagine the judge thought this guy was going to go do it again any time soon.
Why not? He's done it twice already, that we know about.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's a point. Solitary burgling while playing hooky from school isn't exactly a 14 year old typical M. O.
It's not unheard-of. I knew a couple [lily white] kids in high school who did burglaries during the day. The process, however, did not involve going to the front door and knocking or ringing a doorbell.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's a point. Solitary burgling while playing hooky from school isn't exactly a 14 year old typical M. O.
It's wrong to judge by appearances, but from the photo I'd bet money he's not a burglar.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by WDIV Click On Detroit
Brennan did not have a cellphone at the time because he was on punishment. His mother took the phone. His mother works the overnight shift and doesn't get off until 8 a.m. So Brennan is responsible for getting on the bus each morning.

He actually went to two houses to ask for directions. He was trying to find a short cut to get to school and went through nearby neighborhoods after getting lost. He went to one house first and was given directions by a homeowner, but got lost again. It was the second house he went to where the man met him with the gun.
There is also an article saying that there's no 10% thing with the $50,000 bail, he has to pay it in full, and he has to wear an ankle monitor.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:39 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe there will be follow up stories explaining the curious question of the necessity of getting directions.
Curious to you perhaps, but obviously, no-one else here agrees

PS: When I was at Primary School, I would not have known how to get to school if I missed the bus. I would have asked someone, but when you knock on a door in this country, you don't find yourself facing a redneck with a shotgun.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:55 PM   #97
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So the answer to my curiosity might be there in that article. It says he was looking for a shortcut to school. That could mean that he did know how to get to school but wanted a shorter route that he would not know and would need directions.

He envisioned a shorter way than the one he already knew, but needed help. Or something like that.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:08 PM   #98
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Washington Post: He faces as much as life in prison, according to a video of his arraignment.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:14 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The New York Times
So he decided to walk to Rochester High School, where he is a freshman. That takes about an hour and a half, but he thought he would at least make it in time for his third-period class in world studies, his favorite subject.

Brennan did not have his smartphone that morning, and so, lacking assistance from GPS, he tried to follow the route his bus usually takes. He ended up in a quiet subdivision where the roads looped into each other, and when he noticed he had gone in a circle, he stopped to ask for help.

He tried one home, and then another. A woman answered the door, he said, and began yelling almost immediately, as if he were trying to break into her house...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/14/u...irections.html
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:21 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Washington Post: He faces as much as life in prison, according to a video of his arraignment.
Well someone who is willing to shoot at people, simply because they knocked on their door and asking for directions, probably should be in prison or some kind of secure mental institution. For their entire life? Maybe, if they continue to display such a complete lack of inhibition and disregard for human life.

A helpful reminder for all violent deranged thugs out there: violence ought to be used only as a last resort. Only after other less serious means of persuasion has been tried to no avail is it reasonable to threaten, let alone utilize, violence.
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:37 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Curious to you perhaps, but obviously, no-one else here agrees

PS: When I was at Primary School, I would not have known how to get to school if I missed the bus. I would have asked someone, but when you knock on a door in this country, you don't find yourself facing a redneck with a shotgun.
Or even just an ordinary *******..........
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:56 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
From the same New York Times article, a quote from Ziegler, in court:

“There’s a lot more to the story than what’s being told,” he added, “and I believe that will come out in court.”


Well, he gets his day in court, and there may indeed be a lot more to the story. On the other hand, a bunch of us here have occasionally debated with conspiracy theorists, and are familiar with the phenomenon where someone is sure that when we see "the evidence", we'll realize "the real truth". Usually, what happens is that they present something, along with a tortured spin on what they present that leads to a bizarre interpretation of the events, and they are quite surprised when no one agrees with them. I have this feeling that he will look at that tape himself, and be absolutely certain that it was obvious that this kid was a would be burglar, otherwise, why would he have said, "....(insert whatever words are legible on the tape) ..." Mr. Ziegler is convinced he was justified in firing that shot, and probably won't be convinced otherwise. Bummer for him.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:30 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Perhaps the "burglar" had a 'break and enter' tool in his hand, looked like a weapon to the Mrs. ?

Do we know the address for the kid, where his bus stop was? It might back up the kid's story. Or destroy it.
And the straw grasping grew increasingly desperate.

How did it come to this? An era when it is frowned upon to shoot at minorities for knocking on your door and upsetting the sensitive disposition of your wife, merely for suffering the chronic, common and relatable phobia of people with dark pigmented skin? How is such a timid soul possibly going to survive if her brave and heroic rock of a husband goes to prison?

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Old 14th April 2018, 03:32 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
From the same New York Times article, a quote from Ziegler, in court:

“There’s a lot more to the story than what’s being told,” he added, “and I believe that will come out in court.”


Well, he gets his day in court, and there may indeed be a lot more to the story. On the other hand, a bunch of us here have occasionally debated with conspiracy theorists, and are familiar with the phenomenon where someone is sure that when we see "the evidence", we'll realize "the real truth". Usually, what happens is that they present something, along with a tortured spin on what they present that leads to a bizarre interpretation of the events, and they are quite surprised when no one agrees with them. I have this feeling that he will look at that tape himself, and be absolutely certain that it was obvious that this kid was a would be burglar, otherwise, why would he have said, "....(insert whatever words are legible on the tape) ..." Mr. Ziegler is convinced he was justified in firing that shot, and probably won't be convinced otherwise. Bummer for him.
Well if you think about it, he only has a couple options: plead guilty, admit your ignorance and hope for a plea bargain or a short sentence; or concoct a BS story that the kid threatened the wife or something or they saw him jiggle the doorknob (a tough one if any of the interaction is on video); or ????
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:50 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There is also an article saying that there's no 10% thing with the $50,000 bail, he has to pay it in full, and he has to wear an ankle monitor.
He probably went to a conventional bondsman, and only coughed up the 5K.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:20 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Whatever punishment he gets from the courts, I hope he has right to bear arms taken away for life too. And the same for his stupid wife who went into hysterics at the sight of the kid instead of just listening to his explanation.
Why was he still allowed to have a gun after the first time he fired one inappropriately? I understand that it was pled down to a misdemeanor, but it was a gun safety conviction. That's be enough to lose your licence here.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:22 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I can only imagine such people live in constant terror, all the time, that they react this way. They're living in the world's mightiest nation, in an era of luxury and peace unprecedented in human history, and they're convinced they're going to be violently killed at any moment? That's seeing the world as it isn't, a disconnection from reality...and isn't that one of the definitions of insanity? Grossly inappropriate reactions to ordinary events seems like a symptom to me. And they should receive treatment so their madness doesn't harm themselves or others.

Unless they lived in an intensely crime-filled area, of course. If they'd been home-invaded I can see why they'd be like that.
Personally I blame the GOP and the NRA. Their lies have created a dark fantasy world where Blacks and Hispanics are out to rob and kill you, and the only way to be safe is to have a gun and start shooting.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:24 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think this dude should be shut up for life. I think he deserves jail time, but when all was said and done, he's a paranoid man who heard his wife screaming and found some suspicious activity.
Yeah, because a black kid standing on your porch is definitely "suspicious activity" and deserves to be meet with the full blast of a shotgun.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:28 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
All it will take is one person on a jury of twelve who shares, even a little bit, the above skepticism (and just the handful of posters in this thread gives us some idea of the likelihood of that) ... and the guy is going to walk.
Acquittals don't work that way. What you are describing is a hung jury (which we have lessened by allowing 10-2 results, but that's a digression). Hung Juries generally result in re-trials, especially if the Prosecutor had a 11-1 first time around.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
He wasn't reacting to the kid at his door, he was reacting to his wife's reaction. Not saying he is in the right, not even close, but it's a factor. I still want to see the video.
Honestly that doesn't matter. He had a duty of care to assess the situation himself and act responsibly, not to react emotionally to her reactions.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:31 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Why was he still allowed to have a gun after the first time he fired one inappropriately? I understand that it was pled down to a misdemeanor, but it was a gun safety conviction. That's be enough to lose your licence here.
Was wondering this myself. He apparently committed a crime with a gun years ago.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:34 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I don't think they release guys with a strong case against them on $50K bail.
$50K is a pretty substantial bond for a middle class family. Even if they got a 10% through a bondsman, $5K is often hard to come up with quickly if you are a typical middle class family with mortgage and HP payments taking up most of your income. If you are lucky you might be able to put it on the credit card.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:42 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Most of those kids will have little conception of actual distances. They travel everywhere by some sort of vehicle. Even adults have trouble with this. They think in terms of minutes spent riding, not miles traveled. A shopping center that's 20 miles away by Interstate is "closer" than a store that has twenty stoplights in twenty blocks.
Many years ago when I was still at home, we had a woman knock on our door in the middle of the night (about 10:30pm.) Considering that we were out in the country it was rather amazing how many people knocked on the door for various reasons, but anyway, she'd had an argument with her boyfriend and decided to walk to another friend's place "just down the road" not realising how far it was, She'd already been walking for two hours when she saw our lights on, and stopped. we gave her a lift, which was about 5-10 mins by car, on foot she'd have been walking at least another 2 hours.

I have even done this myself, when my bike was broken I decided to walk into town. What was generally a 10 minute car ride and a 15-20 minute bike ride, took me well over 4 hours!
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:46 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why not? He's done it twice already, that we know about.
Well for a start, I don't think he'll have access to guns while on bail, and hopefully, ever again.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:49 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think the most likely explanation is that the kid is telling the truth about how and why he got onto that porch, but if I were involved with the case in an official capacity, I would be looking to see if there is any evidence of the second most likely explanation.
The second most likely explanation? That he was really selling raffles or sweets? Or that he had lost his ball in the backyard? Or that he had the wrong house? I don't think he'd be mistaken for a courier or a mail person, so that rules thouse out, how about a survey taker, or a JW/Mormon? Maybe he didn't want to tell his mother he was really working for the local electricity company or cable service trying to sign people up?
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 14th April 2018 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:50 PM   #116
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From last December, four-year-old attempts to walk home after bus driver fails to drop him off. At least this child only had to dodge traffic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-42365641
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:10 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG!

To the people in the thread who think the black kid was acting suspiciously [for whatever rationalization you want to use to justify the racism] does it not dawn on any of you that shooting at anyone because they knocked on your door IS INSANE!!!!!
Sounds American.
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:22 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG!

To the people in the thread who think the black kid was acting suspiciously [for whatever rationalization you want to use to justify the racism] does it not dawn on any of you that shooting at anyone because they knocked on your door IS INSANE!!!!!
Even if you discount the racism, the disregard shown for human life (by some) in this thread and the one on the Florida School Shooting is pretty horrible.
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:09 PM   #119
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I've been cased by what I thought was a potential thief in my neighborhood in the past. A man was going around trying to interest people in a home security system. It was a good way to get people to come to the door and find out more about their home security or lack of it. This guy didn't have a phone or a business card.

Didn't prompt me to shoot at him with my shotgun. I did talk to my neighbors (they got the same visits) and inform the local police though.

If a person at my door ever spooked me, I'd be installing a video/audio monitor and engaging them (verbally) from my couch.

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Old 14th April 2018, 06:21 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Sounds American.
The traditional form of greeting: buckshot to the face
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