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Old 11th October 2018, 01:33 AM   #1
Eddie Dane
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Study: Americans dislike political correctness

Quote:
On social media, the country seems to divide into two neat camps: Call them the woke and the resentful. Team Resentment is manned—pun very much intended—by people who are predominantly old and almost exclusively white. Team Woke is young, likely to be female, and predominantly black, brown, or Asian (though white “allies” do their dutiful part). These teams are roughly equal in number, and they disagree most vehemently, as well as most routinely, about the catchall known as political correctness.

Reality is nothing like this. As scholars Stephen Hawkins, Daniel Yudkin, Miriam Juan-Torres, and Tim Dixon argue in a report published Wednesday, “Hidden Tribes: A Study of America’s Polarized Landscape,” most Americans don’t fit into either of these camps. They also share more common ground than the daily fights on social media might suggest—including a general aversion to PC culture.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ctness/572581/

A very interesting article that strongly counteracts the image I get of the 'culture war' from Twitter, Facebook and even these forums.

The flaw might be that political correctness was not clearly defined to the participants. Or that might be a strength, as people worked with their own interpretation of the term.
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Old 11th October 2018, 01:44 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The flaw might be that political correctness was not clearly defined to the participants.
That's a massive, massive flaw. So much so as to make any data useless, surely?
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ctness/572581/

A very interesting article that strongly counteracts the image I get of the 'culture war' from Twitter, Facebook and even these forums.

The flaw might be that political correctness was not clearly defined to the participants. Or that might be a strength, as people worked with their own interpretation of the term.
What you mean is wasn't defined as being a strawman made up by right wing activists decades ago?
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:25 AM   #4
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If the question was "Is racism a problem in this country?" would the poll be invalid on account of 'racism' not being explicitly defined to each respondent? Everybody has a good idea what political correctness means and there's no reason to presume otherwise. In the study it says that when respondents were questioned in detail they all shared a common definition. It's not relevant to the study whether people are actively being repressed, only that they feel they are.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If the question was "Is racism a problem in this country?" would the poll be invalid on account of 'racism' not being explicitly defined to each respondent? Everybody has a good idea what political correctness means and there's no reason to presume otherwise. In the study it says that when respondents were questioned in detail they all shared a common definition. It's not relevant to the study whether people are actively being repressed, only that they feel they are.
I agree.

Based on the quoted responses, people were working from the same concept.
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Old 11th October 2018, 03:49 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I agree.

Based on the quoted responses, people were working from the same concept.
Yeah the same strawman
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:46 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What you mean is wasn't defined as being a strawman made up by right wing activists decades ago?
Ahhh, baloney. How can you not see that the Medias, social and otherwise, exaggerate the ends of the spectrum, and that the vast majority has a different point of view? No manufactured strawman needed to notice the fact that most people think PC is bonkers.

Get ought of your Mom's basement, get off the Librul sites, out of the gay bars, and look at the real people in the real world.

And there is the other end of the spectrum too- the paranoiacs in their Treehouses.

Reality: Life is better in America than in 99.7% of the world, PC or not bedamned.
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Old 11th October 2018, 06:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
...most people think PC is bonkers.
Could you offer up a definition of 'PC' that you think everyone would agree on?
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:00 AM   #9
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I visited the US recently, Georgia to exact.

I caught myself being pleasantly surprised by how nice everybody was. The internet really warps your perception of reality.

Twice I ran into the wokeness IRL. I sat next to a girl on the plane who was a sociology student and who was really in the white privilege thing. And took a course (the reason I went there) and sat next to a transgender woman. I went to have lunch with her and she was just full of ideological zeal and anger.

Apart from that, Georgia was a fantastic experience. I really like Southern culture.

And yes, most people aren't even in the culture war.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:02 AM   #10
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We're just going to spend this entire discussion with two sides that each define "PC" differently talking around each other. One side is convinced being PC is just "being polite" and the other side is going to see it as euphemistic double-speak.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're just going to spend this entire discussion with two sides that each define "PC" differently talking around each other. One side is convinced being PC is just "being polite" and the other side is going to see it as euphemistic double-speak.
It brings back warm memories of the discussion about the existence of SJW's.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:08 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It brings back warm memories of the discussion about the existence of SJW's.
It's really the same argument just from a different angle.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:10 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's really the same argument just from a different angle.
Maybe we should aim for the middle ground: Political Correctness does not exist, and 80% of Americans hate it anyway.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:16 AM   #14
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If the question is phrased as "Is language, especially in the categories of social and political categorization, becoming too euphemistic" my answer would be an strong yes, but that would just be countered with "Well that's not Political Correctness" and we'd be right back where we started.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah the same strawman
You say that with much confidence. I'd like to know, either way.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
And yes, most people aren't even in the culture war.
When I take over in my bloody coup...... errr I mean the totally open and honest election I'm totally gonna have.... I'm going to send goon squads around to carve that into the forehead of every person on the internet with a branding iron, backwards so they have to read it every time they look in a mirror.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:25 AM   #17
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Only prominent I've seen someone use the term recently, was the US president - usually right after saying that "Mexicans" were raping young white women or mocking someone's disability. Which, yeah, is just him being a bigot.
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Old 11th October 2018, 07:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Only prominent I've seen someone use the term recently, was the US president - usually right after saying that "Mexicans" were raping young white women or mocking someone's disability. Which, yeah, is just him being a bigot.
The term itself has sort of died off since it rapidly just turned into one of those meaningless "Litmus Test" terms.

As a concept it's still here.
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:00 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Only prominent I've seen someone use the term recently, was the US president - usually right after saying that "Mexicans" were raping young white women or mocking someone's disability. Which, yeah, is just him being a bigot.
I take it as a term for the general idea that we should not offend those who listen to or read our words.

At the broadest, that is, and in that, I disagree. Offending can be a good thing sometimes.

More narrowly, pissing off your voters or going out of your way to belittle, dehumanise or even just cause anguish to people is just dumb.
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:09 AM   #20
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'Political correctness' has a pretty negative connotation across the board, doesn't it? The people who use PC terms think of it as sensitivity or consideration, and PC's use is normally in the rebuking or exasperated senses. Would anyone answer that they actually liked political correctness?
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
'Political correctness' has a pretty negative connotation across the board, doesn't it?
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the time the term is used, it is done so derisively. It's like how "communist" is very rarely used to actually describe someone who subscribes to that political view. It's the political way to call someone a poopy head.
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I take it as a term for the general idea that we should not offend those who listen to or read our words.

At the broadest, that is, and in that, I disagree. Offending can be a good thing sometimes.
I take it more as the general idea that we shouldn't offend those who don't deserve it, which I suspect might overcome your objection. But I think Eddie Dane nailed it in #13.

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Old 11th October 2018, 08:47 AM   #23
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Since nobody seems to read the article they are discussing, I'm including some quotes:

Quote:
Youth isn’t a good proxy for support of political correctness—and it turns out race isn’t, either.

Whites are ever so slightly less likely than average to believe that political correctness is a problem in the country: 79 percent of them share this sentiment. Instead, it is Asians (82 percent), Hispanics (87percent), and American Indians (88 percent) who are most likely to oppose political correctness. As one 40-year-old American Indian in Oklahoma said in his focus group, according to the report:

'It seems like everyday you wake up something has changed … Do you say Jew? Or Jewish? Is it a black guy? African-American? … You are on your toes because you never know what to say. So political correctness in that sense is scary'.

The one part of the standard narrative that the data partially affirm is that African Americans are most likely to support political correctness. But the difference between them and other groups is much smaller than generally supposed: Three quarters of African Americans oppose political correctness. This means that they are only four percentage points less likely than whites, and only five percentage points less likely than the average, to believe that political correctness is a problem.
Quote:
One obvious question is what people mean by “political correctness.” In the extended interviews and focus groups, participants made clear that they were concerned about their day-to-day ability to express themselves: They worry that a lack of familiarity with a topic, or an unthinking word choice, could lead to serious social sanctions for them. But since the survey question did not define political correctness for respondents, we cannot be sure what, exactly, the 80 percent of Americans who regard it as a problem have in mind.
Quote:
For the millions upon millions of Americans of all ages and all races who do not follow politics with rapt attention, and who are much more worried about paying their rent than about debating the prom dress worn by a teenager in Utah, contemporary callout culture merely looks like an excuse to mock the values or ignorance of others. As one 57- year-old woman in Mississippi fretted:

'The way you have to term everything just right. And if you don’t term it right you discriminate them. It’s like everybody is going to be in the know of what people call themselves now and some of us just don’t know. But if you don’t know then there is something seriously wrong with you'.
Quote:
The gap between the progressive perception and the reality of public views on this issue could do damage to the institutions that the woke elite collectively run. A publication whose editors think they represent the views of a majority of Americans when they actually speak to a small minority of the country may eventually see its influence wane and its readership decline. And a political candidate who believes she is speaking for half of the population when she is actually voicing the opinions of one-fifth is likely to lose the next election.
I suspect that citizens, media and politicians get a distorted view of how 'woke' the general population is. This is the result of very loud voices on social media.

Citizens get insecure and self-censor.

Media will try to be modern by -as an example- overcorrecting the number of strong female characters and giving the male heroes more passive roles (a major criticism of the last Star Wars film that may have killed the franchise).

Politicians will try to cater to these perceived broadly carried trends. But as soon as they start to refer to women as womxn -for instance-, they are in danger of alienating 80% of the population. And let's face it, those politicians will be democrats, there is no danger of the Trump administration going woke.

Listening to SJW's (who don't exist) and going PC (which doesn't exist) has consequences. And you can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I take it more as the general idea that we shouldn't offend those who don't deserve it, which I suspect might overcome your objection. But I think Eddie Dane nailed it in #13.

Dave
How does one determine if someone 'deserves' offense? Humour, for example, works often specifically by offending sensibilities. Do they deserve to be offended? Is that really important?
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Old 11th October 2018, 08:56 AM   #25
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I wonder if it's PC in general, or more the "outrage shopping" sort of culture we've developed.

With the wide availability of information and the accessability of potentially global platforms to a huge number of people (via internet and social media), it seems like there are many out there who simply look for things to be outraged about. And assume the worst when they find one. Someone using the "wrong" word is almost always assumed to be either malicious or so culturally/socially ignorant as to be an object of scorn (coffee in an elevator). Frankly, whatever happened to the idea of correcting someone gently and politely first? You know, a simple "I'm sorry, I don't like to be called that, can you use this instead?". Save the outrage until they make clear they intend malice.

Personally, I try to call people what they wish to be called, although I will default to whatever seems to be the latest non-offensive (if I don't know what one wants).

Sorry, bit of an off-topic rant there . Basically, I think it's the quickness from nothing to full-on outrage, rather than the idea of being PC in an d of itself, that's the issue. And the statements above seem to support that.
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Old 11th October 2018, 09:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Only prominent I've seen someone use the term recently, was the US president - usually right after saying that "Mexicans" were raping young white women or mocking someone's disability. Which, yeah, is just him being a bigot.
It's also a little difficult to imagine a demand for political correctness (as opposed to just freely practicing it) more blatant than insisting that everyone stand for a superficial political symbol like a country's flag or anthem.
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Old 11th October 2018, 10:10 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I wonder if it's PC in general, or more the "outrage shopping" sort of culture we've developed.
I'm partial to the term "grievance collecting".
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Old 11th October 2018, 10:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How does one determine if someone 'deserves' offense? Humour, for example, works often specifically by offending sensibilities. Do they deserve to be offended? Is that really important?

It's a spectrum. On one end you have white ladies aren't permitted to sell burritos , and at the other end 'what's wrong with an all-white frat holding a "Pimps and Hos" party complete with blackface?'. Somewhere in between will be a reasonable spot to draw a line, with complaints about actions on one side of it being appeals to basic civility and sensitivity, and complaints on the other being silly PC nonsense. The problem is people will disagree on where that line should be, while oftentimes acting as if their personal location for said line is an obvious universal which everyone else should understand and agree with automatically. Add in a tendency to over-react and take outrage up to 11 and ... ecce Twitter.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:18 AM   #29
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PC always seemed to me to consist of the ideas your Party requires. This would make Trump's statement about Mexicans entirely PC because those are the acceptable beliefs to Republicans. It's rather much more than a lexicon of words handed down from above, it's a entire belief system that relies on breaking down all issues into us vs them and instructing people to value all that they're told to. All of this works too, my conservative friend believes himself above average intelligence but still thinks that for example, guns, are only valued by his tribe. Liberals (his 'them') hate guns and never have them, have fainting spells when guns are mentioned.

As for the more common definition of Politically Correct, that of a publicly acceptable lexicon of words to apply to other people, I feel it's important to call people what they want to be called. Maybe politeness, but to me it's just being NICE.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
As for the more common definition of Politically Correct, that of a publicly acceptable lexicon of words to apply to other people, I feel it's important to call people what they want to be called. Maybe politeness, but to me it's just being NICE.
Jordan Peterson believes the same thing, but for refusing to be told by law what words he can and can't use he's been called a Nazi and a white supremacist by the loony left.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:46 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Jordan Peterson believes the same thing, but for refusing to be told by law what words he can and can't use he's been called a Nazi and a white supremacist by the loony left.
I haven't heard much of that - people mostly call him a goofball for suggesting that we can study human society by looking to lobsters, pushing his daughters remarkably poor diet, saying women wear makeup to look like they're orgasming to attract men, claiming that drinking some apple cider led to him staying awake for 25 days (Google it) and the like.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:49 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I haven't heard much of that - people mostly call him a goofball for suggesting that we can study human society by looking to lobsters, pushing his daughters remarkably poor diet, saying women wear makeup to look like they're orgasming to attract men, claiming that drinking some apple cider led to him staying awake for 25 days (Google it) and the like.
I wonder how he'd explain the Chinese or Japanese medieval getup.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm partial to the term "grievance collecting".
My go-to has always been "recreational outrage".
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:56 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're just going to spend this entire discussion with two sides that each define "PC" differently talking around each other. One side is convinced being PC is just "being polite" and the other side is going to see it as euphemistic double-speak.
It has to be a triangle as my side is that it was and still is a very successful right wing tactic, an almost perfect strawman.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I haven't heard much of that - people mostly call him a goofball for suggesting that we can study human society by looking to lobsters, pushing his daughters remarkably poor diet, saying women wear makeup to look like they're orgasming to attract men, claiming that drinking some apple cider led to him staying awake for 25 days (Google it) and the like.
I like his motivational lectures but to be honest his book was a let down. He has some odd ideas. That said, people accusing him of being a white supremacist is relatively common.
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:57 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You say that with much confidence. I'd like to know, either way.
I'll see if I can dig up the old posts I made which looked at the origins of its modern usage.
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I wonder if it's PC in general, or more the "outrage shopping" sort of culture we've developed.

With the wide availability of information and the accessability of potentially global platforms to a huge number of people (via internet and social media), it seems like there are many out there who simply look for things to be outraged about. And assume the worst when they find one. Someone using the "wrong" word is almost always assumed to be either malicious or so culturally/socially ignorant as to be an object of scorn (coffee in an elevator). Frankly, whatever happened to the idea of correcting someone gently and politely first? You know, a simple "I'm sorry, I don't like to be called that, can you use this instead?". Save the outrage until they make clear they intend malice.
That's really what most people do in any case. I get the feeling that the people that are terrified by "black" versus "African American" (again, these are not synonyms) simply aren't around many black people. I've never heard anyone throw a fit over "Jew" versus "Jewish", either, although I won't say it doesn't happen.

As far as social media goes, it doesn't help that quite a few stories about the incredible outrage some poor person kicked off are written by the article writer just doing a few keyword searches, and then writing a story around whatever random accounts they find that express outrage - often without bothering to verify if the account is even an actual person.
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
It's also a little difficult to imagine a demand for political correctness (as opposed to just freely practicing it) more blatant than insisting that everyone stand for a superficial political symbol like a country's flag or anthem.
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, but it requires stretching the usual conception of political correctnessWP at least a bit.
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's really what most people do in any case. I get the feeling that the people that are terrified by "black" versus "African American" (again, these are not synonyms) simply aren't around many black people. I've never heard anyone throw a fit over "Jew" versus "Jewish", either, although I won't say it doesn't happen.

As far as social media goes, it doesn't help that quite a few stories about the incredible outrage some poor person kicked off are written by the article writer just doing a few keyword searches, and then writing a story around whatever random accounts they find that express outrage - often without bothering to verify if the account is even an actual person.
That was kind of where I was going with that. Social media seems to compound the problem, making this type of outrage seeking behavior appear MUCH more common that it actually is in reality...which I think is along the same lines of your point. Those with little experience among different races/cultures/groups will be a bit more hesitant because of it, etc.
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Old 11th October 2018, 12:30 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Maybe we should aim for the middle ground: Political Correctness does not exist, and 80% of Americans hate it anyway.
I would say hate is a bit too strong. I prefer indifferent, or "Meh" using the parlance of our times.
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