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Old 18th October 2018, 12:47 PM   #41
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At least you don't have to worry about prion diseases if it's properly cremated.
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Old 18th October 2018, 12:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who's vegan? I just have a profound respect for baked goods. As the Bible says (unto us): 'the LORD is a shoving leopard'. As true today as when it was written.
In the name of the French Fries,
And of the Scone,
And of the Hella Strudel,

Eat men
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Old 18th October 2018, 12:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not newsworthy bad but if this kid had just put normal wood ash into food it still would have been... some level of bad or "off" to whatever hairsplit degree anyone really needs to split it to.

I watch a lot of cooking competitions on Food Network, and ashes have been used as ingredients on a number of occasions. The chef will usually grab some drier vegetable, char it over a flame, and use the ashes as a flavoring element. Googling "ashes in a recipe" finds cauliflower with leek ash and vegetable ash aioli on the first page.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I watch a lot of cooking competitions on Food Network, and ashes have been used as ingredients on a number of occasions. The chef will usually grab some drier vegetable, char it over a flame, and use the ashes as a flavoring element. Googling "ashes in a recipe" finds cauliflower with leek ash and vegetable ash aioli on the first page.
*misspelling of Callie Flower and Lee Kash
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:05 PM   #45
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I think there's a fundamental difference between occasional legit ingredient/food uses of ash and what happened in the OP.

Even if it's a perfectly valid foodstuff pretty much any version of the "Here eat this... okay guess what's in it? Go ahead guess?" is pretty shady.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:10 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'Treet Yourself To High-Fiber Wood Ash' is the ad they're running for that. Apparently you can reduce risk of bowel cancer by eating 50% more wood.
...resisting the obvious grandpa joke with all his might...
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I thought they were running DNA tests on cremains from POWs in a story not too long ago. Were those just insufficiently cremated? Crappy Chinese sourced ovens or something?
As I understand it, if cremated at the correct temperatures for the correct length of time, DNA should not be able to be recovered. The bone cortices, before being pulverized (into the "ashes"), can remain somewhat intact but the marrow doesn't. The soft tissues, of course, have no chance at all.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:17 PM   #48
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"Cremation" as in "cremated in an actual crematoria" where the body is subjected to extremely high heat for a period of time, the bones are crushed, and the entire process is monitored.... almost certainly not.

"Cremation" as in "We threw the bodies on a fire for a while..." maybe, depending on a bajizillion other factors.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
As I understand it, if cremated at the correct temperatures for the correct length of time, DNA should not be able to be recovered. The bone cortices, before being pulverized (into the "ashes"), can remain somewhat intact but the marrow doesn't. The soft tissues, of course, have no chance at all.
OK, I had to look it up since you weren't willing to be my research lackey, and it turns out that they can sometimes recover a DNA profile: At least that is what these guys who sell the service say.

So there is a low probability of those cookies containing Gigi's DNA. But that ain't no probability.

Not sure how that effects my thinking on this, but it seemed like something worth nailing down. Until just now as I type that out.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:31 PM   #50
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The intricities of Identifiable DNA does not concern me as much as unwittingly eating charred corpse.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
OK, I had to look it up since you weren't willing to be my research lackey, and it turns out that they can sometimes recover a DNA profile: At least that is what these guys who sell the service say.
Here's an odd bit from that link:
Quote:
Cremated ashes leave no type of organic material behind which means that they present no health hazard whatsoever. You should encounter no issues shipping this type of sample.


The aim of this test is to extract a DNA profile.
How does one obtain a human DNA profile from inorganic material?


Here's another one:
Quote:
The extreme heat tends to destroy all the DNA in the body although in some cases we may be able to find some DNA that was spared from destruction by the heat in the furnace.
I'm struggling to understand how one would be able to find DNA that was "spared" from being exposed to heat of 1000 degrees (C) for 2 hours. If anything was spared, surely that would be an indication that the cremation wasn't properly done.


In short, I don't think finding such DNA would be impossible, but the level of improbability is super high. You'd be far and away more likely to find the DNA of the person doing the cremation.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Here's an odd bit from that link:

How does one obtain a human DNA profile from inorganic material?


Here's another one:

I'm struggling to understand how one would be able to find DNA that was "spared" from being exposed to heat of 1000 degrees (C) for 2 hours. If anything was spared, surely that would be an indication that the cremation wasn't properly done.


In short, I don't think finding such DNA would be impossible, but the level of improbability is super high. You'd be far and away more likely to find the DNA of the person doing the cremation.
FWIW, my wife's uncle was creamated and we scattered his ashes. There were intact teeth/ bone chips (I assume) that fell out.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:52 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
In short, I don't think finding such DNA would be impossible, but the level of improbability is super high. You'd be far and away more likely to find the DNA of the person doing the cremation.
I don't mind having this conversation but I'm really used to the other party doing all the research for me.

So, what do you think the odd of viable DNA in a cremains sample is when you say super high? 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 1,000,000?
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
FWIW, my wife's uncle was creamated and we scattered his ashes. There were intact teeth/ bone chips (I assume) that fell out.
I wasn't aware that the teeth and bones remain intact after cooking and are then pulverized to complete the cremation process. Kind of weird. And a rogue tooth would totally screw up any decent cupcake.
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Old 18th October 2018, 01:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't mind having this conversation but I'm really used to the other party doing all the research for me.

So, what do you think the odd of viable DNA in a cremains sample is when you say super high? 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 1,000,000?
You're right. I'm full of ****. I don't know. That any DNA would remain seems insane to me, but surely if someone is selling a service to find it then it must happen more often than I would think.
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I wasn't aware that the teeth and bones remain intact after cooking and are then pulverized to complete the cremation process. Kind of weird. And a rogue tooth would totally screw up any decent cupcake.
I don't know how well-policed this industry is. Maybe he got a second-rate treatment? Dunno. The image is for sure burned in my memory and family remembers it quite clearly, the pieces falling straight down below the urn.

Eta: just occurred to me: could fake or porcelain teeth withstand those temperatures?
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:06 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And a rogue tooth would totally screw up any decent cupcake.
It's a prize! Whoever finds a tooth in their cupcake gets a dime!
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:09 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't know how well-policed this industry is. Maybe he got a second-rate treatment? Dunno. The image is for sure burned in my memory and family remembers it quite clearly, the pieces falling straight down below the urn.

Eta: just occurred to me: could fake or porcelain teeth withstand those temperatures?
Ah yeah but, you know that thing about anecdotal evidence,
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ah yeah but, you know that thing about anecdotal evidence,
Yep. The proof is in the pudding. Or cookies, as the cade may be
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You're right. I'm full of ****. I don't know. That any DNA would remain seems insane to me, but surely if someone is selling a service to find it then it must happen more often than I would think.
Damnit, you were supposed to go do the research!

I looked for bit and can't really put a number to it beyond "unlikely" to "very unlikely".

Apparently, it largely depends on the quality fo the pulverization at the end of the process. And newer machines are better at that. So, older cremains are more likely to have some remaining DNA, but newer ones are less likely.

In the future I'm going to need some help on the research side, though.
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:30 PM   #61
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Half Man Half Biscuit! (or Half Gran Half Biscuit)
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:43 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Half Man Half Biscuit! (or Half Gran Half Biscuit)
Granola is people!
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Old 18th October 2018, 02:50 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Damnit, you were supposed to go do the research!

I looked for bit and can't really put a number to it beyond "unlikely" to "very unlikely".

Apparently, it largely depends on the quality fo the pulverization at the end of the process. And newer machines are better at that. So, older cremains are more likely to have some remaining DNA, but newer ones are less likely.

In the future I'm going to need some help on the research side, though.
I believe I can answer this since I read an interview with Steven King back in the day. The highlited is correct but, I believe, after the pulverization the bones go back in for a second heating?

I remember a court case where a funeral home got in over its head and started putting any ol' human ash in urns. I believe now there are certain regulations regarding the proper handling of the cremains when placing them in the proper receptacle.
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Old 18th October 2018, 03:53 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Only if you're living in a police procedural on TV.

Having a police investigation here is a ridiculous waste of time and money. Consuming cremated human remains is pointless [nutritionally] but it's not going to hurt anyone. The only crime is against the eaters' palates, and I don't think we want the police involved in disputes over flavor.
Nobody (except the two cookie students) actually knows yet if ashes were put in the recipe. Those two students could be lying.

The school covers itself legally by getting the police involved even if at a bare minimum. Yes, the ashes wouldn't be physically harmful, but they might want to check on other things such as added opiates or THC or whatever. It might be a bigger prank than just granny ashes.

A law may have been broken, not for poisoning, but for something like disorderly conduct. The school might want a police report in case lawsuits start flying.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:49 AM   #65
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Actually, what a crock. She should have cringingly cooked crooked craisin cremain cronut cookies, whilst creating a crossed crockery cruicible to catch crumbs and serve them.

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Old 19th October 2018, 05:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Actually, what a crock. She should have cringingly cooked crooked craisin cremain cronut cookies, whilst creating a crossed crockery cruicible to catch crumbs and serve them.
I C what you did there.
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Old 19th October 2018, 10:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You're right. I'm full of ****. I don't know. That any DNA would remain seems insane to me, but surely if someone is selling a service to find it then it must happen more often than I would think.
Is there really that much demand for such a service? I suppose, if you're cleaning out the house of your dead relative, you might find an urn of ashes and not be sure who they came from, but does that sort of thing happen often enough to make it a viable business? Or are people just wanting to check up on the funeral home, in case they didn't actually give you the right ashes? That reminds me of a Monty Python sketch.
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Old 19th October 2018, 10:53 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Is there really that much demand for such a service? I suppose, if you're cleaning out the house of your dead relative, you might find an urn of ashes and not be sure who they came from, but does that sort of thing happen often enough to make it a viable business? Or are people just wanting to check up on the funeral home, in case they didn't actually give you the right ashes? That reminds me of a Monty Python sketch.
I think the demand for the service is related to the issues Elagabalus noted. Crematoriums just handing out dirt or random cremains. Also, it seems like relatives get very possessive over such things and try to pass off artificial cremains when diving up estates. so a lot of what I was found on testing cremains was of the
"can you even tell if this is cremains" nature and the rest was "is this really my granddad and not just random cremains."

I haven't yet figured out why those questions are important. My best guess is: People are ******* weird.

We have the cremains of a dog we had for a long time as my kids were growing up. I have no idea why and no idea what we will do with them. Best guess is that we will plant a tree over them at the next house.
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Old 19th October 2018, 12:42 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
.....

We have the cremains of a dog we had for a long time as my kids were growing up. I have no idea why and no idea what we will do with them. Best guess is that we will plant a tree over them at the next house.
You paid how much to have dog cremated? WTF, don't you own a shovel?

eta: Do you need a recipe for Nestle's Doghouse Cookies?
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Old 19th October 2018, 12:51 PM   #70
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There's an Al Bundy (Married with Children) sub plot about this!

https://youtu.be/inubkn_TmUs?t=25
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Old 19th October 2018, 01:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You paid how much to have dog cremated? WTF, don't you own a shovel?
I thought this was a safe space to share such shameful things. Jeez.
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Old 19th October 2018, 01:17 PM   #72
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For the record human "cremated" remains are never fully burned ... after cremation the remains are run through a Ball Mill or Cremator to pulverize the larger bones, some types of medical body implants that do not have to legally be removed, and the teeth and dental fillings.

So it's not JUST ashes in there.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:45 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I thought this was a safe space to share such shameful things. Jeez.
Are you triggered by the word "shovel"? Flashbacks to a dead goldfish perhaps?

I call my home made Low Quat wine "Barley Wine". Barley was my last dog. She is pushing up loquats these last 5 years. I suspect someday she will be joined by Honey, her replacement.
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Old 19th October 2018, 02:52 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
For the record human "cremated" remains are never fully burned ... after cremation the remains are run through a Ball Mill or Cremator to pulverize the larger bones, some types of medical body implants that do not have to legally be removed, and the teeth and dental fillings.

So it's not JUST ashes in there.
Not quite. The metal remains are removed, modern cremators tend to do the whole separation of ferrous and non-ferrous metals and then the grinding and filling the urn as one process. The metal remains will be buried, usually somewhere on site and are not returned with the ashes.
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Old 19th October 2018, 03:04 PM   #75
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I'd worry about the toxic metal content of the ashes. Doesn't mercury tend to accumulate in grandmas?
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Old 19th October 2018, 03:19 PM   #76
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I'd worry about the toxic metal content of the ashes. Doesn't mercury tend to accumulate in grandmas?
As long as you eat only 1-2 meals of grandma per week, you should be fine, though no grandma consumption should be considered safe for pregnant women.
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Old 19th October 2018, 04:38 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
...A law may have been broken, not for poisoning, but for something like disorderly conduct. The school might want a police report in case lawsuits start flying.
A law has been broken.
California claims that their “laws about dealing with ashes are the strictest in the nation.

Even so the only law I can see that might have been broken is:
California allows you to dispose of cremated remains by:
...
keeping them at home (the law requires that you sign a permit and agree not to remove the cremated remains from their container; you must also make arrangements to dispose of the ashes at your death)
What the penalty might be I have no idea.
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Old 19th October 2018, 04:43 PM   #78
Darat
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
A law has been broken.
California claims that their “laws about dealing with ashes are the strictest in the nation.

Even so the only law I can see that might have been broken is:
California allows you to dispose of cremated remains by:
...
keeping them at home (the law requires that you sign a permit and agree not to remove the cremated remains from their container; you must also make arrangements to dispose of the ashes at your death)
What the penalty might be I have no idea.
Sackcloth and ashes.
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Old 19th October 2018, 06:31 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
A law has been broken.
California claims that their “laws about dealing with ashes are the strictest in the nation.

Even so the only law I can see that might have been broken is:
California allows you to dispose of cremated remains by:
...
keeping them at home (the law requires that you sign a permit and agree not to remove the cremated remains from their container; you must also make arrangements to dispose of the ashes at your death)
What the penalty might be I have no idea.
Violation is a misdemeanor.

You can scatter them on private property, with the owners permission. So, putting them into cookies is OK? Or is the scattering the eating of the cooky?

And OT, Califonria law changes in 2020. Just like cremains, 'hydrolyzed remains" will be scatterable. Does "hydrolyzed" mean dissolved in acid?

Was Gramma a bit of a tart? Try my lemon Drop recipe!
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Old 19th October 2018, 06:51 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We have the cremains of a dog we had for a long time as my kids were growing up. I have no idea why and no idea what we will do with them. Best guess is that we will plant a tree over them at the next house.
We have those of my parents' cats. The idea was they were going to be placed in the parents' coffins, but the cats outlived them. Now I need someone to sneak a shovel into the cemetery and bury the little boxes.
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