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Old 25th June 2012, 04:16 AM   #3321
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by kungfuhobbit View Post
kl, some light bedtime reading for me...
Well, given that you've quoted something from the first page of this, you've got plenty to put you to sleep for a year or two.


However, going back to check that does remind us why DOC is desperate that none of the prophecies is proved false:

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Oops; since DOC's link says the following, you've just destroyed the credibility of the whole bible:

Quote:
The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.
Any false prophecy completely discredits that particular prophet. Since large parts of the New Testament are based on those prophecies, then those parts of that become untenable too.
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Old 25th June 2012, 02:09 PM   #3322
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Thanks for that. I never realized how harsh the discrimination of Catholics in the Three Kingdoms was.
OK
Quote:
Exclusion of Catholics from most public offices (since 1607), Presbyterians were also barred from public office from 1707.
Ban on intermarriage with Protestants.
Presbyterian marriages were not legally recognised by the state
Catholics barred from holding firearms or serving in the armed forces.
Bar from membership in either the Parliament of Ireland or the Parliament of Great Britain from 1691–1829.
Exclusion from the legal professions and the judiciary.
Ban on foreign education; repealed 1782.
Bar to Catholics entering Trinity College Dublin.
On a death by a Catholic, his legatee could benefit by conversion to the Church of Ireland
Catholic inheritances of land were to be equally subdivided between all an owner's sons with the exception that if the eldest son and heir converted to Protestantism that he would become the one and only tenant of estate.
Ban on converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism.
Ban on Catholics buying land under a lease of more than 31 years.
Ban on custody of orphans being granted to Catholics.
Ban on Catholics inheriting Protestant land
Prohibition on Catholics owning a horse valued at over £5.
Roman Catholic lay priests had to register to preach.
When allowed, new Catholic churches were to be built from wood, not stone, and away from main roads.
'No person of the popish religion shall publicly or in private houses teach school, or instruct youth in learning within this realm'
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Old 25th June 2012, 07:46 PM   #3323
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I find that sci-fi movies and books do a better job and predicting the future. Now they do not do that as much as influence the future. An author imagines some speculative tech and then someone reading it thinks "lets try and make that"

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Old 25th June 2012, 10:09 PM   #3324
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Meh, now I'll always refer to Ezekiel as Odd Zeke. Daaaaaaaaamn you JREF.
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Old 26th June 2012, 05:35 AM   #3325
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Can someone tell me which Tyre prophecy is the real one? Is it the Ezekiel one that says that Tyre will be destroyed forever, or the Isaiah one that says that Tyre will be destroyed for 70 years and then will be resettled and will then be a city where all the money goes to God and will make everyone happy and well fed?
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Old 26th June 2012, 05:58 AM   #3326
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Can someone tell me which Tyre prophecy is the real one? Is it the Ezekiel one that says that Tyre will be destroyed forever, or the Isaiah one that says that Tyre will be destroyed for 70 years and then will be resettled and will then be a city where all the money goes to God and will make everyone happy and well fed?


Both were real prophecies, but Sir Zeke gets all the attention because with the amount of detail he went into it's possible for the desperate apologist types to force fit some of it to actual events.

Isaiah's prophecy was too vague and hyperbolic to be made to match anything in the real world, and I believe there are some suggestions that a bit of postdiction was added later on by scribes in the light of Seleucid development of the city.

At least Isaiah's version isn't entirely incompatible with the New Testament references to Tyre that make a mockery of Sir Zeke's tale of doom and destruction. A mockery, I might point out, that DOC has so far avoided like the plague, as it were.
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Old 26th June 2012, 06:15 AM   #3327
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The thing that is really incredible about the odds of fulfilled Bible prophecy is that, given the large number of prophecies (or passages that are claimed to be prophecies), their vague and obscure wording and inconsistent translations, and the fact that apologists are quite happy to quote mine individual phrases from within longer prophecies, DOC hasn't managed to find any that have been fulfilled. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
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Old 26th June 2012, 06:21 AM   #3328
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The thing that is really incredible about the odds of fulfilled Bible prophecy is that, given the large number of prophecies (or passages that are claimed to be prophecies), their vague and obscure wording and inconsistent translations, and the fact that apologists are quite happy to quote mine individual phrases from within longer prophecies, DOC hasn't managed to find any that have been fulfilled. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Proof at last.... in order to have written so many unfulfilled prophesies, they must have hard foreknowledge of future events.
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Old 26th June 2012, 07:31 AM   #3329
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Proof at last.... in order to have written so many unfulfilled prophesies, they must have hard foreknowledge of future events.


If I ever decide to forsake the Aten and take up a career as a Christian apologist this is exactly the strategy I'm going to employ.

The odds against getting absolutely everything wrong are surely too high to be ignored.
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:35 PM   #3330
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hi, i'm lurking the thread (still in page 36) but it seems this incredible prophecy (somewhat) has been overlooked:
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Incidentally , Isaiah got his name because of his physiognomy. One eye was higher than the other.
if the poll is still ongoing you can add me on the 'doc failed' and 'ot gibberish' tables, thanks
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Old 28th June 2012, 10:25 PM   #3331
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Can someone tell me which Tyre prophecy is the real one? Is it the Ezekiel one that says that Tyre will be destroyed forever, or the Isaiah one that says that Tyre will be destroyed for 70 years and then will be resettled and will then be a city where all the money goes to God and will make everyone happy and well fed?
If you're asking which is the "real prophecy", you're thinking about the Bible in the wrong way.

The book of First Isaiah, in which we find the prophecy against Tyre (Isaiah is actually 3 books, written at different times), includes material dating from the 8th century BCE, but has been subjected to a centuries-long editing process. Ezekiel was written in the 6th century BCE during the Babylonian exile and later edited by Ezekiel's disciples.

Isaiah of Jerusalem was a priest/prophet living in the 8th century BCE, who was essentially an isolationist, advocating a reliance on God rather than political alliances.

The kings of Judah, however, were more practical-minded, and in order to save themselves from attack by a union of Israel and Syria, King Ahaz of Judah agreed to vassalship under the Assyrians in exchange for military aid, which indeed saved their bacon.

Assyria went on to conquer Israel, and later King Hezekiah of Judah instituted religious reforms and attempted a rebellion, which triggered a siege of Jerusalem by Sennacherib of Assyria. Hezekiah was eventually forced to relent, and Judah's tribute became steep indeed. (Ahaz had done well not to listen to Isaiah, as it turns out.)

Later, in the 7th century BCE, Assyria was conquered by Babylon, and the great regional conflict became the power struggle between Babylon and Egypt. Judah sided with Egypt (the two main factions of priests were split over this choice) which proved to be the losing side, and they eventually came under Babylonian control.

When a series of Judean kings attempted rebellion against Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon in the 6th century BCE, Jerusalem was eventually sacked, the Temple was destroyed, and the elite classes of Judah were removed to Babylon, where they remained until Babylon was conquered by the Persians and Cyrus of Persia initiated a Jewish repatriation to Judah (which, by the way, most Babylonian Jews had no interest in, having become accustomed to more comfortable and sophisticated digs).

So that's the context of the Oracles Against the Nations in Isaiah 13-23, which is essentially a set of curses against 9 enemies of the Judeans, completed long after Isaiah's death, during the era of Babylonian dominance.

The oracle against Tyre (actually an oracle against the Phoenician cities of the coast generally) is in 3 parts.

The first part, 23:1-12, describes the Assyrian campaigns of the late 8th and early 7th centuries BCE.

The second part, verses 13-14 which were added later, re-interprets the oracle in the context of Babylonian dominance:

"Look at the land of the Chaldeans! This is the people; it was not Assyria."

The third part, verses 15-18, is an even later addition, post-dicting the return of Tyre as a trade center, comparing Tyre's dealings with all nations to the work of a prostitute, and predicting that one day Tyre (like all nations, according to Jewish apocalyptic thought) would become a vassal of Judah.

We're still waiting on that last bit to come true. Personally, I'm not sitting up nights.

So you see, the text does make sense, as long as you're dealing with it on its own terms and in its own time. It's only when you attempt to view the Bible as a unitary document (as Disciple Of Christ does on this thread) that you run into problems and end up doing mental gymnastics to attempt to make it all fit.

Ezekiel was also a priest/prophet, and was among the elite Judeans expatriated to Babylon. (The removal of the upper class was not a case of dragging them off to slave labor, btw... its purpose was to get the political and religious leadership out of the conquered area in order to prevent insurgencies. Elites from Babylonian ally states were sent to replace them. The peasants were generally left where they were, because after all, someone had to keep raising food and building things.)

Ezekiel was among the first wave of exiles, taken about a decade before the eventual final destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and he appears to have accurately predicted Jerusalem's fall, although given the power imbalance that wasn't exactly a tough call. But he also accurately predicted the rise of Jerusalem from the ashes, so you gotta give him credit for that, although this, too, was a standard trope by that time, left over from previous disgraces over the long years of Judah's decline.

Ezekiel also delivers Oracles Against Nations. This was a standard trope in ancient near-eastern literature, as you might have surmised by now, and the curses are always extreme and horrific.

His oracle against Tyre is simply a prediction that Babylon will lay it to waste. (Tyre was a competitor with Jerusalem in the mercantile trade, and there was no love lost between the two cities.) At the time of the writing, it seemed like a logical conclusion that Babylon would take Tyre just as it had taken Jerusalem, but as we now know, that was not to be.

And in fact, Ezekiel's disciples came to know it, too, and they had to re-interpret the original prophecy, which they do in 29:17-20.

Their decision was not that the prophecy was wrong, but that God had for some reason decided to spare the city after all -- perhaps they repented, perhaps Nebuchadrezzar had offended God, who knows -- and to give the Chaldeans the spoils of Egypt instead because they had at least tried to do what God wanted them to do, even though they failed.

"King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that they had expended against it. Therefore thus says the Lord God: I will give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, says the Lord God."

(I find it odd that everyone always wants to trot out the apparent contradiction between Isaiah and Ezekiel regarding Tyre, yet they ignore the apparent contradiction within the book of Ezekiel itself.)

So, again, the text makes sense if you read it in its proper context.

And when you do that, you see that it's not a matter of deciding which is the "real prophecy".
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:14 AM   #3332
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Isn't ''real prophecy'' a contradictio in terminis?
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Old 29th June 2012, 05:23 AM   #3333
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Isn't ''real prophecy'' a contradictio in terminis?
Isn't "false prophet" redundant?
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Old 29th June 2012, 07:05 AM   #3334
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
If you're asking which is the "real prophecy", you're thinking about the Bible in the wrong way.

The book of First Isaiah, in which we find the prophecy against Tyre (Isaiah is actually 3 books, written at different times), includes material dating from the 8th century BCE, but has been subjected to a centuries-long editing process. Ezekiel was written in the 6th century BCE during the Babylonian exile and later edited by Ezekiel's disciples.

Isaiah of Jerusalem was a priest/prophet living in the 8th century BCE, who was essentially an isolationist, advocating a reliance on God rather than political alliances.

(remainder snipped)
This is the first time I've heard the idea that Isaiah is three books and not merely two. Do you have a link or a reference somewhere for this?
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Old 29th June 2012, 07:29 AM   #3335
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
This is the first time I've heard the idea that Isaiah is three books and not merely two. Do you have a link or a reference somewhere for this?
See http://www.answers.com/topic/isaiah-#ixzz1zC0KDF10
Quote:
Tradition ascribes authorship of the book to Isaiah son of Amoz, but for over a hundred years scholars have seen it as a compilation of writings from three different periods. The first, termed Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), contains the words of the 8th-century BCE prophet with 7th-century BCE expansions; the second, Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), is the work of a 6th-century BCE author writing near the end of the Babylonian captivity; and the third, the poetic Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), was composed in Jerusalem shortly after the return from exile, probably by multiple authors.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:17 PM   #3336
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
This is the first time I've heard the idea that Isaiah is three books and not merely two. Do you have a link or a reference somewhere for this?
You can look at any current graduate (or undergraduate) Bible text. Or the introductory material to any current scholarly edition of the Hebrew or Christian Bible.

ETA: Oops, scooped by CraigB.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:42 PM   #3337
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
You can look at any current graduate (or undergraduate) Bible text. Or the introductory material to any current scholarly edition of the Hebrew or Christian Bible.
Thanks! Reading up on it now.
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Old 30th June 2012, 06:35 AM   #3338
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Isn't ''real prophecy'' a contradictio in terminis?
Not necessarily.

For instance, the "real prophecy" made by Ezekiel (accurate or not) was that Babylon would sack Tyre.

The later addition regarding Egypt is not an actual prophecy by Ezekiel, or anyone else. It's a post-diction based on what Ezekiel's disciples already knew had happened.
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Old 30th June 2012, 07:17 AM   #3339
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
The third part, verses 15-18, is an even later addition, post-dicting the return of Tyre as a trade center, comparing Tyre's dealings with all nations to the work of a prostitute, and predicting that one day Tyre (like all nations, according to Jewish apocalyptic thought) would become a vassal of Judah.

We're still waiting on that last bit to come true. Personally, I'm not sitting up nights.
A bit of a derail, but they did hold it for a while and some still have the ambition.

Tyre lies south of the Litani river. Between 1918-1923, when the Middle East mandates were hammered out, the Jewish Agency lobbied (unsuccessfully) for the Litani river to become the northern boundary of Palestine. In 1948 during the Independence War, the idea of conquering Lebanon up to the Litani came up again. IIRC, the idea of establishing the Litani as the northern border is still in the Likud party program.

In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, Israel conquered the southern half of Lebanon, including Tyre, and held this to 1985 (see map; yellow part was occupied by Israel; Tyre is at the southwest part of that). In that year, they retreated to a "security zone" which excluded Tyre.
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Old 30th June 2012, 08:05 AM   #3340
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
... In 1948 during the Independence War, the idea of conquering Lebanon up to the Litani came up again. IIRC, the idea of establishing the Litani as the northern border is still in the Likud party program.

In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, Israel conquered the southern half of Lebanon, including Tyre, and held this to 1985. In that year, they retreated to a "security zone" which excluded Tyre.
If they go back I hope they merely evict the Tyrians and usurp their land, as is their custom, and that they don't obey the commands of the divinity set down in Deuteronomy 20
Quote:
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. 11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. 12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: 13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: 14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
So if they obey their god, then DOC's prophecy will be totally fulfilled, and no mistake!
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Old 30th June 2012, 08:34 AM   #3341
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If they go back I hope they merely evict the Tyrians and usurp their land, as is their custom, and that they don't obey the commands of the divinity set down in Deuteronomy 20 So if they obey their god, then DOC's prophecy will be totally fulfilled, and no mistake!
Sabra and Shatila. Need I say more?
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Old 30th June 2012, 09:20 AM   #3342
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Sabra and Shatila. Need I say more?
Dear heaven, I had forgotten that! Tyre may be doomed after all.
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