DeSantis Martha's Vineyard Stunt

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What I'm aware of is that it exposes the flaw in your "if the voters support it, it's ok despite its illegality" stand.

Wrong. It exposes that the legal avenues of enforcement were obviously impotent. As they may well be in this case.

Originally Posted by Warp12

Meh. I mean if it is prosecuted with some major impact, that will possibly impact votes. But otherwise, who cares? I would say on any of it, if you can get away with it, and the voters support it, do it.

If someone doesn't like it, do something about it other than whine. There is a lot of whining over this...let's see the action.

Originally Posted by Warp12

They are perfectly congruent. The way the system should work is that lawbreakers are prosecuted. If there is no prosecution, then what does that say? The fact of the matter is, a lot of "iffy" stuff goes on in politics.

For example, I don't care about what DeSantis has done here until it is proven to be a prosecutable offense. If he is prosecuted, and convicted of a crime, I will stand by that decision. If the law has clearly been broken, he should be held accountable.

That is independent of whether it was a douchey action. What you can "get away with" is the reality of how law is enforced (or not).

Everyone is so up in arms over this, as I say let's see the legal action and the results. That will be the determiner. My guess? No legal action of consequence.

[newyorkguy]

If voters support it, why not?

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Because illegal. I thought that was fairly obvious.

This is one of the reasons conservative Republicans have embraced Viktor Orban in Hungary. Straight out of his playbook. If public opinion supports it then it can't be illegal. The libs? The mainstream media? They no longer count.

Quote:

When heads of state visit the U.S., the top item on their itinerary is usually a White House visit. For Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban [in August], it [meant] addressing a conference of conservative activists in Dallas.

Orban’s appearance at the Conservative Political Action Conference, where he’ll be joined by former President Donald Trump and right-wing icons such as Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., is the most dramatic indication yet of how a leader criticized for pushing anti-democratic principles has become a hero to segments of the Republican Party. Orban has curbed immigration and stymied those who envision a more middle-of-the-road European democracy for their country. He’s done so by seizing control of Hungary’s judiciary and media, leading many international analysts to label him as the face of a new wave of authoritarianism. He also is accused of enabling widespread corruption and nepotism, using state resources to enrich a tight circle of political allies. AP News link

The overthrow of our conventional democracy has begun and I can't think of a clearer example then what DeSantis has done.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

The libs? The mainstream media? They no longer count.

Is there a difference?

[JoeMorgue]

"Jews go on the trains, Jews don't go on the train. What I care about is what the voters support. And hey maybe gassing the Jews will reveal some weakness in our law enforcement."

[Regnad Kcin]

If only you didn’t come to my country with your brown skin and accents and hand out looking for free stuff got me a beer and not back talk me, I wouldn’t have to treat you like sub-human Hollywood props for the enjoyment of the mouth breathers hit you.

See what you made me do?!

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Housing is readily available on the Vineyard? They've already moved (some of?) the migrants to Otis Joint Base on the Cape as I understand it.

I also doubt that Vineyard wages for unskilled labor are terribly high. I guess they're higher than down South, but the cost of living is a lot higher too.

On the other hand, it may be that the immigration judges around here aren't so overworked and I hear they tend to be more sympathetic to asylum seekers than those in Texas or Florida.

Oh, how I'd love to see the judges in the area quickly confirm their asylum-seeker status, grant them permanent residency in the US, and have them offered to be sent to wherever they want to find work.

That would be the perfect message to send DeSantis - "you keep sending us your asylum seekers at $25,000 a hundred, we'll grant them asylum and residency and send them to wherever they want to go - if that is back to Florida, so be it, and there won't jack **** you can do about it!"

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Jews go on the trains, Jews don't go on the train. What I care about is what the voters support. And hey maybe gassing the Jews will reveal some weakness in our law enforcement."

These dumb analogies are built around a fear-mongering core. I guess this is what they call a Godwin. Glad you cut to the chase and invoked it early.

[Warp12]

The more I think about this, the more I am OK with it. I mean the whole concept of a sanctuary city is to be non-cooperative with authorities, in an effort to protect illegals. That is way worse than what DeSantis has done.

Dems have some real balls whining about this.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger

The fact that residents of Martha's Vineyard reacted with compassion may have come as a great surprise.

The reaction and response of MV residents was superb, but it would have come as a complete shock to DeSantis, Abbot and other racist Republicans, including a few on this forum. Why? Because, simply put, they are utterly incapable of understanding that everyone else doesn't think like them. They regard Blacks, Latinos, immigrants who are not white to be "The Other" - or as their kindred spirits would say, "Der Untermensch" - not worthy of life. They see compassion and kindness towards these people, not as a strength, but as a weakness; a threat their power and to the continuation of their privileged White Republic.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Warp12

The more I think about this, the more I am OK with it. I mean the whole concept of a sanctuary city is to be non-cooperative with authorities, in an effort to protect illegals. That is way worse than what DeSantis has done.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Also these are not illegal immigrants, that is a lie and anyone who says they are is a liar.

They are legal asylum seekers.

Originally Posted by Warp12

Ok, well that is different then.

Originally Posted by Warp12

You missed the edit, Stacy. They are asylum seekers. That changes my opinion of what is acceptable.

Didn't take you long to walk that back did it!?

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Didn't take you long to walk that back did it!?

I didn't say they were illegals. I said what DeSantis has done is nothing compared to what these sanctuary cities are doing to go against authority. But yes, I have changed my mind about the severity of his action...by using a Dem-approved point of reference.

In other words, Dems whining about this is ridiculous considering what they emphatically support with these sanctuary cities/states.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Warp12

The more I think about this, the more I am OK with it. I mean the whole concept of a sanctuary city is to be non-cooperative with authorities, in an effort to protect illegals. That is way worse than what DeSantis has done.

Dems have some real balls whining about this.

Don't recall Martha's Vineyard being any "sanctuary city"...

So what you are really doing here is endorsing DeSantis and Abbot's massive but failed dick moves in an effort to tweak the Libz. It's nothing to do with immigration at all. These people they bus and fly out are just pawns in some dick-waving game. And you support the morons with their wangs out. Good to know.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Don't recall Martha's Vineyard being any "sanctuary city"...

So what you are really doing here is endorsing DeSantis and Abbot's massive but failed dick moves in an effort to tweak the Libz. It's nothing to do with immigration at all. These people they bus and fly out are just pawns in some dick-waving game. And you support the morons with their wangs out. Good to know.

Look, it's not something I would have done, personally. I am glad the migrants are being cared for.

But I am having a hard time getting upset about it when I think of what Dems are endorsing on the other end of the spectrum.

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Look, it's not something I would have done, personally. I am glad the migrants are being cared for.

But I am having a hard time getting upset about it when I think of what Dems are endorsing on the other end of the spectrum.

They seem to be endorsing decency and compassion, what I thought were true American values. You having a hard time with that is illuminating but hardly surprising.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

They seem to be endorsing decency and compassion, what I thought were true American values. You having a hard time with that is illuminating but hardly surprising.

They are endorsing non-cooperation with federal immigration authorities. So, no room to complain about the actions of DeSantis.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Warp12

They are endorsing non-cooperation with federal immigration authorities. So, no room to complain about the actions of DeSantis.

He sent them to Martha's Vineyard because that is where Kamala Harris lives, not because it's a sanctuary city, which it's not.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

He sent them to Martha's Vineyard because that is where Kamala Harris lives, not because it's a sanctuary city, which it's not.

I don't care one bit. The point is, Dems have no room to complain with the things they are endorsing.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't care one bit.

That wasn't for you.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

That wasn't for you.

Well, you quoted me in your post.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Well, you quoted me in your post.

When pointing out bad arguments, you have to reference the bad argument itself.

Again, this is not meant for Warp.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

When pointing out bad arguments, you have to reference the bad argument itself.

Again, this is not meant for Warp.

But the post of mine that you quoted made no mention of a sanctuary city. Just that Dems had no place in whining about this. I guess you missed that part. Probably didn't read back to get context. Whatever.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Warp12

They are endorsing non-cooperation with federal immigration authorities. So, no room to complain about the actions of DeSantis.

It seems to have escaped you that the people your boy DeSantis is using as part of a cheap stunt are in reality human beings with God given rights.

Clearly, to you, their callus abuse is okay because it's just politics.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Wrong. It exposes that the legal avenues of enforcement were obviously impotent. As they may well be in this case.

Not for several years, even decades. As the article states:

Quote:

The most egregious violators simply closed the public schools. In response to a May 1, 1959 order to integrate its schools, officials in Prince Edward County, Virginia closed its entire public school system instead. The entire public school system remained closed for the next five years.

In September 1958 as schools in Norfolk, Charlottesville, and Warren County were on the verge of integration via court order, they were closed by state officials. Although the Virginia Supreme Court overturned the school-closure law, the General Assembly made school attendance optional.

Quote:

In the face of this fierce and ongoing resistance, LDF sued hundreds of school districts across the country to vindicate the promise of Brown. It was not until LDF’s later victories in Green v. County School Board (1968) and Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg (1971) that the Supreme Court issued mandates that segregation be dismantled “root and branch.”

The point was your philosophy of "if the voters support it, it's ok despite its illegality", not whether "the legal avenues of enforcement were impotent" or not. But....whoosh....right over your head.

Originally Posted by Warp12

Everyone is so up in arms over this, as I say let's see the legal action and the results. That will be the determiner. My guess? No legal action of consequence.

Yeah, people ...or at least some people...do tend to get upset when human beings are used as pawns in order to further a politician's personal political aspirations. But you do you.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by arayder

It seems to have escaped you that the people your boy DeSantis is using as part of a cheap stunt are in reality human beings with God given rights.

Clearly, to you, their callus abuse is okay because it's just politics.

As long as the voters support it and they can get away with it...illegal or not...it's just hunky-dory according to Warp. It only matters if it's prosecuted successfully. That kind of thinking explains so much.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

As long as the voters support it and they can get away with it...illegal or not...it's just hunky-dory according to Warp. It only matters if it's prosecuted successfully. That kind of thinking explains so much.

Well, that is how a certain little Austrian corporal became the dictator of a country, and the architect of the greatest genocide in the history of human civilization isn't it, so I can see why Warp is perfectly OK with that.

After all, Republicans judge themselves how much they can hurt mud-people, race-traitors, women and their other their political enemies to a far greater degree than how much they do to better the lives of their own people.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Warp12

As long as the voters support it, sure. Why not?

How about because it is wrong? How does it come about that those politicians who scream loudest against hints of moral relativism find it so easy to abandon every trace of simple decency in favor of shenanigans like this?

And is there not a point at which you find it difficult to maintain your position that the ends justify the means?

[Venom]

Warp12, there's a difference between going through proper procedures to get migrants to where people care about them and cynical political ploy like this to send a message. DeSantis and co thought (or pandering to their dumbass MAGAt fans who do) would reject them so they can play the hypocrisy game.

This nonsense is playing to the "well how about you take in refugees" at home, like that's an argument against institutional changes to accomodate them.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by bruto

How about because it is wrong? How does it come about that those politicians who scream loudest against hints of moral relativism find it so easy to abandon every trace of simple decency in favor of shenanigans like this?

And is there not a point at which you find it difficult to maintain your position that the ends justify the means?

For Warp, what Trump has done to this country...the Big Lie undermining our election integrity, the Jan. 6 insurrection, taking documents (including top secret) that could jeopardize our national security and the lives of operatives... is just fine as long as he's never prosecuted and convicted.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Seems like good optics so far. The progressive one percenters on the island aren't really doing their faction any favors in all this.

It's almost like any American who actually wants more illegal immigrants only really wants them somewhere else.

And that…is why you fail.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by Venom

Warp12, there's a difference between going through proper procedures to get migrants to where people care about them and cynical political ploy like this to send a message. DeSantis and co thought (or pandering to their dumbass MAGAt fans who do) would reject them so they can play the hypocrisy game.

This appears to be the new normal as a way to get migrants to these sanctuary cities unfortunately the sanctuary cities are having difficulties dealing with the influx. The MV thing was just a way to get this into the news big time.

Migrant Busing Brings the Border Crisis to Sanctuary Cities

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

Boy, that moral compass thing is for the birds. So much easier to subjugate women, treat immigrants like chattel, wantonly destroy the environment, coddle and encourage nazis and fascists, lionize proven grifters, and dry hump every conspiracy theory that catches your fancy.

I mean it's one thing to have a broken compass, maybe that could be fixed. But to willfully throw the thing down the deepest hole you can find and pile manure over top just in case anyone looks down... that's next level stuff.

But…but Jesus!

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Warp12

The more I think about this, the more I am OK with it.

OK, so can we have some clarification of what you are OK with...

Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government directly lying to them about where they were being sent to and what was waiting for them at their destination?

Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government giving them documentation with deliberately misleading instructions?

Yes or no: Are you OK with the DHS intentionally inserting false entries on their documentation, listing their addresses as randomly chosen homeless shelters all over the USA?

Yes or no: Are you OK with the Florida Government deliberately giving them the wrong agency with which to update their addresses?

Yes or No: Are you OK with the Florida Government arranging for them to have court appearances all over the country that they could not possibly have any way to get to.

These are simple questions with yes or no answers - they have no need of elaboration - either you are OK with these things or you are not. You earn the right to elaborate only after you have answered yes or no.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yes or no: Are you OK with the Florida Government intentionally inserting false entries on their documentation, listing their addresses as randomly chosen homeless shelters all over the USA?

I'm not sure if you are aware, but the claim is that DHS did the above.

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Yes or no: Are you OK with the Florida Government deliberately giving them the wrong e are simple questions with yes or no answers - they have no need of elaboration - either you are OK with these things or you are not. You earn the right to elaborate only after you have answered yes or no.

Basically, as soon as I see the above highlighted, I know I'm not bothering to answer you. The "internet interrogator" method of debate is amusing, though.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Stout

MV certainly beats languishing on the streets of San Antonio. We're told the migrants were given phones with US numbers so obviously those were lacking. Phones are cheap and necessary and if the migrants weren't able to afford those then their situation must have indeed been dire. MV residents also raised $175k for the migrants (at press time) which, when distributed equitably among the migrants would allow them to relocate to pretty much anywhere in the country they chose. This is what I meant by "hitting the jackpot".

The missing court appearances issue doesn't make any sense. The migrants knew they had court appearances yet chose to get on a presumably one way flight to a sanctuary location knowing full well that those court appearances would be missed. Maybe there's something wonky in the reporting here.

You may pretend all you wish, but this scheme had no good intentions at heart. There are a million places which would have been better prepared to deal with migrants than Martha's Vineyard. That the people of the Vineyard reacted well doesn't wash the stench off of DeSantis, who flew migrants from Texas to Florida and then the Vineyard just for the sake of publicity.

As far as missed court dates go, the fact is that the migrants were likely unclear on how the process works. They were taken advantage of. It's really as simple as that.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Don't recall Martha's Vineyard being any "sanctuary city"...

Massachusetts is a "sanctuary state" due to a state Supreme Court ruling.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

He sent them to Martha's Vineyard because that is where Kamala Harris lives, not because it's a sanctuary city, which it's not.

As I told Norman, Martha's Vineyard is located in a sanctuary state.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I'm not sure if you are aware, but the claim is that DHS did the above.

OK, fixed that, but regardless of whoever did it, are you OK with it: Yes or no

Originally Posted by Warp12

Basically, as soon as I see the above highlighted, I know I'm not bothering to answer you. The "internet interrogator" method of debate is amusing, though.

Translation: You're afraid to justify your position.

If you won't answer a simple, non-loaded, yes or no question as to what you agree with then it becomes clear and obvious that you know you are standing on shaky ground.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Massachusetts is a "sanctuary state" due to a state Supreme Court ruling.

Originally Posted by phiwum

As I told Norman, Martha's Vineyard is located in a sanctuary state.

Moot!

Whether or not Massachusetts is a sanctuatry state is completely irrelevant. These are not illegal immigrants, they are asylum seekers awaiting a court decision on their status

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Well, whoever did it, are you OK with it: Yes or no

I would suggest you get your facts in order before proclaiming falsehoods. Look at the source material, and prior posts. Then you won't be asking redundant questions. I've more than answered the questions you posed. In fact, I have made numerous comments on the DHS issue, which I consider more outrageous than what DeSantis has done. The involvement of a federal agency in document falsification is pretty curious.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I would suggest you get your facts in order before proclaiming falsehoods. Look at the source material, and prior posts. Then you won't be asking redundant questions. I've more than answered the questions you posed. In fact, I have made numerous comments on the DHS issue, which I consider more outrageous than what DeSantis has done. The involvement of a federal agency in document falsification is pretty curious.

We can all see your round about way of not answering a plain and simple straightforward question.