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Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM   #1161
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Here's another quote.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not or ever have been in favor of making voters nor jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races that will forever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they can not so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Where's the bit about
slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition.
I don't see anything of that kind. nor do I see him quoted as saying that his government is based on that great truth. What I see is perfectly normal, and deplorable, nineteenth century race and class prejudice. If Black people were more or less disenfranchised before the Civil war, so at the same time were persons without property in the UK. But secession was imtended primarily to entrench the institution of slavery, and to armour it against the increasing possibility of abolition.
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Old Yesterday, 09:16 AM   #1162
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Very good, Lincoln, like almost every 19th century man, was a racist. So what?

And, unlike his Confederate peers, his views on race evolved as he interacted with black people like Frederick Douglass, and became significantly less racist by the end of his life. To the point where he acknowledged that they deserved citizenship, and even entertained the possibility of negro suffrage. In that he was far ahead of most politicians even in the Union, and light years ahead of the Confederates.
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM   #1163
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Oh- there is no doubt that Lincoln had racist views. Or at least that he was willing to publicly mimic the wide spread racist views of his time for public consumption (as I read his words it appears that whether he believed these views or not he was enunciating them primarily to reassure the public that to support him was not to support their "nightmare:" blacks intermarrying, holding office above them, voting,, judging them as jury members, etc).

I also point out that although in part a captive of his era and of the political limitations of the time, Lincoln also had quite progressive views In terms of his racism- somehow despite their disagreements, Lincoln was able to convince Frederick Douglass that he was "a great man." Do doubt Lincoln had complex views on race, not all as negative as the quoted comments might suggest.

Once again though- we don't honor Lincoln because of these racist views of his. We honor him for keeping the Union together and initiating actions that eventually freed the slaves.

ninja'd by Luchog!
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM   #1164
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And, unlike his Confederate peers, his views on race evolved as he interacted with black people like Frederick Douglass, and became significantly less racist by the end of his life. To the point where he acknowledged that they deserved citizenship, and even entertained the possibility of negro suffrage. In that he was far ahead of most politicians even in the Union, and light years ahead of the Confederates.
Yep. This is mentioned in the article I posted above (which specifically addresses this quote, puts it into context, and expands on Lincon's views beyond a single sound bite). He did think blacks were inferior, but still thought they should have the same freedoms as others, and should benefit from their own labors (i.e.-not be slaves).
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Old Yesterday, 10:26 AM   #1165
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
And the battle wasn't even on Bunker Hill.

Not the important part, anyhow.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 PM   #1166
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(looks around, sees what may be the old "seccession wasn't about slavery" argument, ignores it - go read some books)

Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Is there a museum they could move the Taney statue to? Seems like something that needs to be displayed with context.
Donate to the Smithsonian, maybe? a Civil War museum?

It's both a rather ugly statue, since Taney's all hunched over, and it's pretty damn big and difficult to move around or place in any of the Civil War museums, which tend to be pretty small, but I'd still rather not see it melted down entirely. This is the one where I have to ask if it's getting a bit out of hand, since there actually is some historical significance to it aside from "You darkies will never be equal!"
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Old Yesterday, 03:52 PM   #1167
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Donate to the Smithsonian, maybe?
This strikes me as the appropriate fate of monuments which have overstayed their welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 07:19 PM   #1168
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This is the one where I have to ask if it's getting a bit out of hand, since there actually is some historical significance to it aside from "You darkies will never be equal!"
Like what historical significance? And was this other significant thing the actual reason the statue was erected? Because if the people who put up the statue did so because of the Dred Scott decision I would opine that it really doesn't matter what other historical significant things Taney may have done.
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Old Today, 03:39 AM   #1169
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yep. This is mentioned in the article I posted above (which specifically addresses this quote, puts it into context, and expands on Lincon's views beyond a single sound bite). He did think blacks were inferior, but still thought they should have the same freedoms as others, and should benefit from their own labors (i.e.-not be slaves).
Beyond this there is the issue rarely taken on explicitly: the notion of equality in democracy does not imply sameness at the level of specific attributes or skills. A moment's reflection ought to have every Frightard quaking at having used inferiority on some scale as a reason for a reduction in rights, given that there are quite a number of objective measures that would place most Frightards at the rank, stinking bottom, starting with level of education. Those who do have some noggin about them can, I posit, be frequently taken down by the dark areas in brain scans used to diagnose sociopaths, if not a simpler test of being able to reason logically.

Equality in democracy is one of shared humanity, of possessing a seat of reason and preference. Or on the religious grounds implied by the DoI, a being a brother/sister in divine creation. No matter which way you take it, the notion of political equality has nothing to do with the racist/nutty slander of Frightards, themselves sorryass losers on their own grounds. Ha, freaking ha.
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Old Today, 04:30 AM   #1170
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Frankly, these monuments are unAmerican. Since when do we celebrate losers? We shouldn't have participation statues.
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Until recently, I used to get a paid holiday for Bunker Hill Day, which celebrated a battle which American colonists lost not quite as badly as they'd expected to.
Remember the Alamo!
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Old Today, 11:57 AM   #1171
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Beyond this there is the issue rarely taken on explicitly: the notion of equality in democracy does not imply sameness at the level of specific attributes or skills.
That's true, but Lincoln was talking about different races having different degrees of superiority, and that certainly isn't consistent with democracy either. So I agree more with what you say here
Quote:
Equality in democracy is one of shared humanity, of possessing a seat of reason and preference. Or on the religious grounds implied by the DoI, a being a brother/sister in divine creation. No matter which way you take it, the notion of political equality has nothing to do with the racist/nutty slander of Frightards, themselves sorryass losers on their own grounds. Ha, freaking ha.
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