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Tags Colorado cases , Jon-Benet Ramsay , murder cases , unsolved crimes

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Old 30th September 2016, 02:18 PM   #401
Vortigern99
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually, it does not establish that.

The Ramseys said they didn't give her pineapple. It doesn't mean that either:
1) there was a source of pineapple earlier in the day, such as at the party (you claimed there was no pineapple at the party, but I doubt the police searched the house where the party was held in fine detail to verify that)
2) she went and got pineapple on her own and returned to bed without her parents hearing (and before she was taken by the killer)
3) It was given to her at some point by the killer
Any of these could have happened without the parents knowing. Alternatively they might simply have forgotten, with no intent to deceive.

The pineapple (both in her stomach and in the bowl) is a mystery, and we will probably never know where it came from.

The thing is, regardless of where the pineapple came from, it doesn't really have much value as evidence. If it was a staging, why not just say "Oh, we gave her a snack" and nobody would have batted an eye.
Exactly. The Ramsays-did-it theorists often exclude possible, reasonable alternatives from their accusatory speculation.
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Old 30th September 2016, 02:23 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Thanks for this. I tire of the baseless speculation that Patsy or John must have been complicit in the murder or its cover-up by dint of the fact that she called the police upon finding the note. Attempting to attribute rational behaviors to persons under this kind of duress is itself unreasonable.
I challenge you to show me any baseless speculation over on forumsforjustice. Look at what they're saying about John Douglas:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...w-and-Disorder
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Old 30th September 2016, 02:36 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually, it does not establish that.

The Ramseys said they didn't give her pineapple. It doesn't mean that either:
1) there was a source of pineapple earlier in the day, such as at the party (you claimed there was no pineapple at the party, but I doubt the police searched the house where the party was held in fine detail to verify that)
2) she went and got pineapple on her own and returned to bed without her parents hearing (and before she was taken by the killer)
3) It was given to her at some point by the killer
Any of these could have happened without the parents knowing. Alternatively they might simply have forgotten, with no intent to deceive.

The pineapple (both in her stomach and in the bowl) is a mystery, and we will probably never know where it came from.

The thing is, regardless of where the pineapple came from, it doesn't really have much value as evidence. If it was a staging, why not just say "Oh, we gave her a snack" and nobody would have batted an eye.
Why yes, yes they did. They went over everything served at the party, in an attempt to identify the source of the pineapple.
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Old 30th September 2016, 02:43 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually, it does not establish that.

The Ramseys said they didn't give her pineapple. It doesn't mean that either:
1) there was a source of pineapple earlier in the day, such as at the party (you claimed there was no pineapple at the party, but I doubt the police searched the house where the party was held in fine detail to verify that)
2) she went and got pineapple on her own and returned to bed without her parents hearing (and before she was taken by the killer)
3) It was given to her at some point by the killer
Any of these could have happened without the parents knowing. Alternatively they might simply have forgotten, with no intent to deceive.

The pineapple (both in her stomach and in the bowl) is a mystery, and we will probably never know where it came from.

The thing is, regardless of where the pineapple came from, it doesn't really have much value as evidence. If it was a staging, why not just say "Oh, we gave her a snack" and nobody would have batted an eye.
If 1) were true, someone would have pointed that out. 3) is a pretty remote possibility. No reason for the killer to give her food. And the bowl was left out on the table, and we know that the killer was a neat freak who put things away when he was finished. When I was 6, I would not have gotten up in the middle of the night and helped myself to a snack. Maybe that's because I grew up in an earlier generation.
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Old 30th September 2016, 02:43 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I challenge you to show me any baseless speculation over on forumsforjustice. Look at what they're saying about John Douglas:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...w-and-Disorder
This is called poisoning the well. If you have any specific refutations of any claims made or speculations presented, please provide them.
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Old 30th September 2016, 02:50 PM   #406
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Is this an accurate summation of what most here think happened?

A man in his early 20's who likes action movies and is either a close friend of John Ramsey or a relative or in a relationship with a close friend or business associate of John Ramsey develops a grudge against John Ramsey. He decides to seek revenge against John Ramsey by kidnapping his daughter. Knowing that the Ramseys are going to a party on Christmas night, he breaks into their house. While in the house waiting for them to return, he realizes that he's forgotten to write a ransom note. So he searches around
a little and finds a pen and a note pad. While writing the ransom note, he realizes that he doesn't know what a realistic ransom amount would be. So he searches some more and stumbles upon the letter that John Ramsey received informing him of his bonus. He decides that John Ramsey must have at least this much money in the bank, so that becomes his ransom amount. Since he is bored, he entertains himself by trying to write in the style that he envisions that a middle-aged Christian woman would, resulting in a lengthy ransom note that doesn't completely make sense. Finally he hears a car pull into the driveway, so he proceeds to his full-proof hiding place, a spot that he is certain the Ramseys won't look in before they go to bed. As the hour passes 11:00, he perceives that not a creature is stirring (not even a mouse), so he sneaks into JBR's room and grabs her. He tries to drag her out of the house, but she resists and he gets frightened so he smacks her on the head with a hard object. This knocks her unconscious. She does not regain consciousness quickly. He realizes that he's blown the kidnapping, so he takes her down to the basement. He wants to sexually assault her, but because of the stress he finds himself unable to. He sees a paint brush and decides to use that instead. He begins to get worried that he might be running short on time and since she's still unconscious she might be seriously injured. To eliminate any chance of her regaining consciousness, he decides that he should make sure that she's dead. He decides to use string, but thinks that a true villain like those in his favorite action movies wouldn't merely wrap a rope string victim's neck. He realizes that he can make a fancy strangulation device with the string and the paint brush. After strangling JBR, he decides that a good villain wouldn't leave his victim looking messy, so he cleans her groin area, pulls her underpants and leggings back up, wraps her in a blanket, and puts a doll next to her. His night's work finished, he slips off into the darkness, forgetting about the ransom note which is no longer needed.
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:00 PM   #407
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No.
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:01 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
This is called poisoning the well. If you have any specific refutations of any claims made or speculations presented, please provide them.

Your humor meter needs re-calibrating.
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:04 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Your humor meter needs re-calibrating.
It's a serious topic. Did you have an on-topic point to make?
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:14 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
It's a serious topic. Did you have an on-topic point to make?
Dude, lighten up. It is indeed a serious topic but that doesn't mean we can't have any fun.

I'm assuming you didn't go over to forumsforjustice? Cuz' they're all about baseless speculation. I was agreeing with you.*





*for now. ***looks around the room and narrows eyes***
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:19 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Is this an accurate summation of what most here think happened?
No. While you may have given a proper description of some of the things, you have added embellishments that nobody here actually believes just to try to cast a negative light.

Quote:
A man in his early 20's who likes action movies and is either a close friend of John Ramsey or a relative or in a relationship with a close friend or business associate of John Ramsey develops a grudge against John Ramsey.
Nope. There would be no need for any sort of "close relationship". Its only you, who has this believe that "everybody's lives are secret" who seems to think such inside knowledge is necessary.

And "early 20s" is only a very rough estimate.
Quote:
He decides to seek revenge against John Ramsey by kidnapping his daughter. Knowing that the Ramseys are going to a party on Christmas night, he breaks into their house. While in the house waiting for them to return, he realizes that he's forgotten to write a ransom note.
Something like that. It may be one of several possibilities. He may have brought a note and decided to rewrite it.
Quote:
So he searches around a little and finds a pen and a note pad. While writing the ransom note, he realizes that he doesn't know what a realistic ransom amount would be. So he searches some more and stumbles upon the letter that John Ramsey received informing him of his bonus. He decides that John Ramsey must have at least this much money in the bank, so that becomes his ransom amount. Since he is bored, he entertains himself by trying to write in the style that he envisions that a middle-aged Christian woman would, resulting in a lengthy ransom note that doesn't completely make sense.
And that, my readers, is crap.

The only one here who thinks the letter sounds like a "middle age christian woman" is you. The rest of us recognize that the letter is largely composed of phrasing reflective of popular movies.

And its not that he "didn't know what a ransom note would be"... he write things in a way that would try to artificially enhance his importance.
Quote:
Finally he hears a car pull into the driveway, so he proceeds to his full-proof hiding place, a spot that he is certain the Ramseys won't look in before they go to bed. As the hour passes 11:00, he perceives that not a creature is stirring (not even a mouse), so he sneaks into JBR's room and grabs her. He tries to drag her out of the house, but she resists and he gets frightened so he smacks her on the head with a hard object.
We have no idea when he would have struck JBR.... could have been in her bed, could have been in the basement.
Quote:
This knocks her unconscious. She does not regain consciousness quickly. He realizes that he's blown the kidnapping, so he takes her down to the basement. He wants to sexually assault her, but because of the stress he finds himself unable to.
Nobody here claimed that.
Quote:
He sees a paint brush and decides to use that instead. He begins to get worried that he might be running short on time and since she's still unconscious she might be seriously injured. To eliminate any chance of her regaining consciousness, he decides that he should make sure that she's dead. He decides to use string, but thinks that a true villain like those in his favorite action movies wouldn't merely wrap a rope string victim's neck. He realizes that he can make a fancy strangulation device with the string and the paint brush.
Or, he's always had a fantasy about strangulation and decided to put it into play.
Quote:
After strangling JBR, he decides that a good villain wouldn't leave his victim looking messy, so he cleans her groin area, pulls her underpants and leggings back up, wraps her in a blanket, and puts a doll next to her.
The reason her underwear was back up was already explained. The fact that you don't understand that underwear has elastics and don't need to be removed is a failing on your part, not the intruder's.

Here's a question....

Since you had all that time to waste writing that, why didn't you just go and write your own little narrative? One that actually tries to explain things from your "inside job" perspective? Oh that's right... because if you did it would be a complete train wreck.
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:20 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
This is called poisoning the well. If you have any specific refutations of any claims made or speculations presented, please provide them.
I've already posted 2 items that he got wrong in this thread: 1 about if it was an inside job what happened to the stuff used to clean up all the blood from her head wound (in reality, it didn't bleed) and the other about how JBR's body was not covered as would be expected of a parent (in reality, according to John Ramsey's statements the body was neatly wrapped inside of a blanket "like a papoose").
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Old 30th September 2016, 03:35 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Nope. There would be no need for any sort of "close relationship". Its only you, who has this believe that "everybody's lives are secret" who seems to think such inside knowledge is necessary.
JR was the CEO of a company that employed 1000's of people. There were multiple layers of management between him and the rank-and-file. No, CEO's do not personally meet every single one of the 1000's of employees in their company. I work for an organization of about 550 people and I don't know when the director is on vacation or whom she spends her holidays with. You appear to have no idea of reality.

Quote:
And "early 20s" is only a very rough estimate.
One that you seem to be using. Early 20's or just 20-something, makes no difference.

Quote:
The only one here who thinks the letter sounds like a "middle age christian woman" is you. The rest of us recognize that the letter is largely composed of phrasing reflective of popular movies.
Perhaps the only one HERE, but an opinion widely shared, except for conspiracy theorists like yourself. But you can inform me by showing which movies the various lines came from. "Two gentlemen watching OVER her" comes from where?

Quote:
We have no idea when he would have struck JBR.... could have been in her bed, could have been in the basement.
Not important. You stated that you believe that he intended to take her out of the house. I was just going with that.

Quote:
The reason her underwear was back up was already explained. The fact that you don't understand that underwear has elastics and don't need to be removed is a failing on your part, not the intruder's.
Wow! You know absolutely nothing about female anatomy if you believe this.

Quote:
Since you had all that time to waste writing that, why didn't you just go and write your own little narrative? One that actually tries to explain things from your "inside job" perspective? Oh that's right... because if you did it would be a complete train wreck.
I just did. And you obviously read it.
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:17 PM   #414
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Quote:
Perhaps the only one HERE, but an opinion widely shared, except for conspiracy theorists like yourself. But you can inform me by showing which movies the various lines came from. "Two gentlemen watching OVER her" comes from where?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(film))

ED: I haven't seen the movie. I'm just repeating what I've heard.

ED: fixed link
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:24 PM   #415
Ampulla of Vater
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(film)

ED: I haven't seen the movie. I'm just repeating what I've heard.
fix your link. The right parenthesis is not part of the link and it needs to be.
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:38 PM   #416
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The tape on JonBenet, was that common duct tape, or what?
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Old 30th September 2016, 04:52 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_(film))

ED: I haven't seen the movie. I'm just repeating what I've heard.

ED: fixed link
A 1948 Hitchcock film would be exactly the type of thing two movie buffs would have seen. I would say it would be *extremely* unlikely that a 20-something who liked action movies would have seen Rope.

Not sure how Segnosaur would explain that one.
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Old 1st October 2016, 02:36 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The tape on JonBenet, was that common duct tape, or what?
There is some waffle about this matter on the internet:

"John Ramsey Testimony

How Tape Found

John Ramsey found this piece of tape covering JBR's mouth when he first found JBR; he removed it before taking her upstairs.
Fleet White picked up this tape and examined it.
No Photos of Tape on Mouth. For this reason, there are no photos of this tape on JBR's mouth. Instead, the only photos are of the tape on a blanket found with JBR.

Physical Characteristics

According to John Ramsey's account over several interviews (excerpted at Starting Over-JonBenet), some key points about the duct tape are:
Color. The duct tape was black, a point JR makes repeatedly. At one point he states "it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought." It appears that "wide" may have been incorrectly transcribed as "white" in this statement since there are repeated other instances in which he refers to the tape as black. Crime scene photos make the tape appear gray, but this may be due to a reflection of light off the black tape. Internet poster Shill has provided a photo showing that the sticky side of a certain kind of duct tape is gray.

Size. The tape is described as wider than electrical tape but not as wide as duct tape; JR appears quite certain on this point. He had previously used tape of a similar size that was white for sailing, but had never seen that type of tape in black previously. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates it was duct tape despite John's insistence it was not that wide (in the interviews, John is surprised by how wide the tape appears in crime-scene photos since it does not square his recollection).

Cut or Torn? JR also several times notes the smooth edges of the tape, asserting that it has been cut with a knife and NOT torn by hand as one might normally do with duct tape. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates both ends were torn.

Loose or Firm? JR reported the tape adhered all the way to JBR's mouth, i.e., it was not just loose on her lips. Internet posters Jameson (see 11/10/06:8:43pm) and Mame (see 11/10/06:10:47pm) have each done experiments with similar tape and found them to be very non-adhesive.

Carnes Opinion
Lip Prints on Tape. Plaintiff also notes that the strip of duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth had a bloody mucous on it and a "perfect set of child's lip prints, which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance." (PSDMF 53.)(Carnes 2003:15).
Both Ends Torn. "Both ends of the duct tape found on her were torn, indicating that it came from a roll of tape that had been used before. (SMF P 171; PSMF P 171.) (Carnes 2003:18).

Animal Hair. "Animal hair, alleged to be from a beaver, was found on the duct tape. (SMF 183; PSMF 183.) Yet, nothing in defendants' home matches the hair (SMF 183; PSMF 183.), thereby suggesting either that the duct tape had been obtained from outside the home or that it had been carried outside the home at some point." (Carnes 2003:71).

FBI Findings

Date Manufactured. "The FBI had determined that the tape .... had first been manufactured in November 1996 under the brand name Suretape. The tape had a 40 percent calcium filler in the adhesive, and its yarn/scrim count of 20/10 helped pinpoint that Bron was the tape’s distributor" (Schiller 1999a:499).

More details on the tape's origins are reported by Internet poster Braveheart.
Birefringement Properties. Internet poster One-Eyed Jack has noted (11/14/06:3:58am) that calcium is birefringent; birefringent foreign material was found in JBR's vaginal mucosa (see below).

When Was Tape Applied?

Internet poster koldkase suggests that since the "blood-tinged" saliva running down her cheek and onto her sleeve was found under the tape, the tape probably was applied after she was dead--a sign of staging.
Internet poster Bluestrat does not believe the saliva was blood-tinged: it was probably an off-color effect from the camera angle. (photo)

Source of Tape

Not Sourced to Ramseys. "The black duct tape used on JonBenet's mouth has also not been sourced to defendants. (SMF P 170; PSMF P 170.)...No similar duct tape was found in the house, nor is there evidence that defendants ever used or owned such duct tape. (SMF P 172; PSMF P 172.)" (Carnes 2003:18).
Not From Picture Frame. "BPD detective Byfield had located two paintings in the home, one of which was hung in JonBenet’s bedroom, that had black tape attached to the rear of the frames. There was no match with the strip of tape found in the windowless room..........."
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Old 1st October 2016, 03:56 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by yodaluver28 View Post
I think the pineapple is largely irrelevant. Given variance in digestion times, we just can't know when she ate it. Maybe her killer gave her some, maybe not. Ultimately, I think it's one of the least illuminating pieces of evidence.

It makes far more sense if an intruder broke into the house, probably through the basement window, bringing the flashlight, cord, duct tape, cloth, and rope with him in a paper bag. The Ramseys were gone at Christmas dinner so this person would have had as much as 4-5 hours to scour the house and revel in his sadistic fantasies. He finds the pad and paper and, while waiting, uses them to write a taunting ransom note. He finds this brilliant and hilarious, since he already knows he’s going to kill her and never call them to make a ransom drop. He even added the flourish of the exact amount of John’s bonus to the note. This amount could've been easily discovered by a stalker rummaging through the house for hours but it's something that will give the Ramseys and the police pause. This detail would mess with everyone’s head and even implicate the Ramseys to some, even though it’s utterly meaningless IMO. Nothing in the note necessarily indicates that this person actually knew the Ramseys and had a real life beef with them. It's all movie dialogue bluster that could've been written by anyone.

After writing the note, he goes upstairs and hides in John Andrew Ramsey's bedroom, next to JonBenet’s. There was a dirty rope and paper sack found there that the Ramsey’s didn’t recognize, that the police have no proof of them purchasing, and fibers from the bag were found in JonBenet's bed and the body bag she was taken to the morgue in. The killer probably hid under the bed as it was photographed by police and the dust ruffle was disturbed. If the killer had been stalking the family all day, he would know that John's oldest son wasn’t staying with them and wouldn’t return to discover him in his room. This way, he could hear when they came back and would know when everyone was asleep. Once they were, he could quietly step into JB’s room and place the duct tape over her mouth and stun gun her on the side of her face (the stun gun theory has never been confirmed or disproven but nothing else fits the marks on her body better, certainly not the railroad tracks from the basement). She was unconscious and could easily and quietly be taken to the basement. Once he’d gotten that far, the rest would be horrifyingly easy, especially with her parents three floors away.

The Burke did it theory doesn't account for the hemorrhaging and defensive scratches on her neck, which indicate that she was alive and had regained consciousness while the garrotte was placed on her. The head wound caused massive damage and inflammation and hemorrhaging indicate that she was alive when the head blow was struck but the very small amount of blood (about 1 1/2 tsp) indicates that the blow to the head was likely peri-mortem (just before death, while her circulation was compromised). In other words, the head blow finished her off, it wasn't the beginning.

The Burke did it theory also doesn't account for the fact that she was sexually assaulted that night. The garrotte was tightened, probably from behind, causing her to urinate on the anterior portion of her long johns (the front portion of her clothing was urine stained but not her bedding, so the Patsy-killed-her-in-a-bedwetting-rage theory is also BS). The hyperemia in the vestibule and distal vaginal wall, the red blood cells, and semi-fluid blood found on her vaginal fourchette, vestibule, and perineum means she was sexually assaulted while still alive and the absence of white blood cells responding to the trauma means she was assaulted shortly before death. There’s abrasion near and involving the hymen, which was torn with blood presence, epithelial erosion, and capillary congestion, indicating a recent tear via penetration. Probably by the paintbrush handle as small shards of wood and varnish from the brush were found in her vagina. What parent with no history of abusive behavior would do that to cover up an accident committed by a 9 year old who couldn't be held legally accountable? The pubic area had also been wiped with a cloth or towel that wasn’t identified or found in the house. The sexual assault IMO proves that not only didn't the Ramseys kill her but neither did some family friend or business enemy out to get John Ramsey. What was done to JonBenet is something only a sadistic pedophile could do.

There was blood on her panties mixed with male DNA from saliva and the DNA doesn’t match anyone in her family. That same DNA is a match to the DNA found in different locations on the pants she was wearing. The amount of DNA found was 12 times more than manufacturing contamination can explain based on studies of manufacturing contamination so, the investigators on this show handwaving it away was utter nonsense. Scant manufacturing contamination cannot explain common DNA being in so many places on two different garments from two different manufacturers, mixed with her blood and under her fingernails (the fingernail DNA was too degraded to make a good match but there were several common markers so, it's believed to be that of her killer's as well). The DNA found on her body was of sufficient quality to meet the CODIS Core Loci requirements for inclusion in the CODIS database, which has standards to prevent incidental DNA from being included. Then there's the pubic or axillary hair found on the blanket her body was wrapped in which matches no one in the family.

There's no real evidence that anyone in her family killed her, it's all innuendo and supposition. The Boulder police screwed up so badly that they will never catch her killer unless they get extraordinarily lucky with the CODIS database and get a DNA hit. That the same detectives that botched the crime scene, deliberately planted bogus stories in the press to slander the family from the beginning, and refused to consider alternate suspects before it was too late are still trying to nail them even after the DNA has proven to not be their's is reprehensible. These people were in over their head from day 1 and are using conspiracy theories to cover their incompetence.The "experts" CBS used were not impressive in the least, especially the alleged profilers.
Stunning, possibly to probably definitive.
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Old 1st October 2016, 05:56 AM   #420
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Rope, not the movie

"Furthermore, the garrote knot use to bind and asphyxiate JonBenét is highly complex knot, usually only used by someone who has had specific martial arts or military training (or an interest in sexual bondage). At aged nine, it is unlikely that he would have mastered cub scout knots, never mind intricate knots such as this. That is, of course, if we discount an adult’s involvement in this aspect of the crime." link I don't know this site, but I saw no evidence of crackpottery.
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Old 1st October 2016, 06:33 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is some waffle about this matter on the internet:

"John Ramsey Testimony

How Tape Found

John Ramsey found this piece of tape covering JBR's mouth when he first found JBR; he removed it before taking her upstairs.
Fleet White picked up this tape and examined it.
No Photos of Tape on Mouth. For this reason, there are no photos of this tape on JBR's mouth. Instead, the only photos are of the tape on a blanket found with JBR.

Physical Characteristics

According to John Ramsey's account over several interviews (excerpted at Starting Over-JonBenet), some key points about the duct tape are:
Color. The duct tape was black, a point JR makes repeatedly. At one point he states "it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought." It appears that "wide" may have been incorrectly transcribed as "white" in this statement since there are repeated other instances in which he refers to the tape as black. Crime scene photos make the tape appear gray, but this may be due to a reflection of light off the black tape. Internet poster Shill has provided a photo showing that the sticky side of a certain kind of duct tape is gray.

Size. The tape is described as wider than electrical tape but not as wide as duct tape; JR appears quite certain on this point. He had previously used tape of a similar size that was white for sailing, but had never seen that type of tape in black previously. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates it was duct tape despite John's insistence it was not that wide (in the interviews, John is surprised by how wide the tape appears in crime-scene photos since it does not square his recollection).

Cut or Torn? JR also several times notes the smooth edges of the tape, asserting that it has been cut with a knife and NOT torn by hand as one might normally do with duct tape. Note the Carnes opinion below indicates both ends were torn.

Loose or Firm? JR reported the tape adhered all the way to JBR's mouth, i.e., it was not just loose on her lips. Internet posters Jameson (see 11/10/06:8:43pm) and Mame (see 11/10/06:10:47pm) have each done experiments with similar tape and found them to be very non-adhesive.

Carnes Opinion
Lip Prints on Tape. Plaintiff also notes that the strip of duct tape found on JonBenet's mouth had a bloody mucous on it and a "perfect set of child's lip prints, which did not indicate a tongue impression or resistance." (PSDMF 53.)(Carnes 2003:15).
Both Ends Torn. "Both ends of the duct tape found on her were torn, indicating that it came from a roll of tape that had been used before. (SMF P 171; PSMF P 171.) (Carnes 2003:18).

Animal Hair. "Animal hair, alleged to be from a beaver, was found on the duct tape. (SMF 183; PSMF 183.) Yet, nothing in defendants' home matches the hair (SMF 183; PSMF 183.), thereby suggesting either that the duct tape had been obtained from outside the home or that it had been carried outside the home at some point." (Carnes 2003:71).

FBI Findings

Date Manufactured. "The FBI had determined that the tape .... had first been manufactured in November 1996 under the brand name Suretape. The tape had a 40 percent calcium filler in the adhesive, and its yarn/scrim count of 20/10 helped pinpoint that Bron was the tape’s distributor" (Schiller 1999a:499).

More details on the tape's origins are reported by Internet poster Braveheart.
Birefringement Properties. Internet poster One-Eyed Jack has noted (11/14/06:3:58am) that calcium is birefringent; birefringent foreign material was found in JBR's vaginal mucosa (see below).

When Was Tape Applied?

Internet poster koldkase suggests that since the "blood-tinged" saliva running down her cheek and onto her sleeve was found under the tape, the tape probably was applied after she was dead--a sign of staging.
Internet poster Bluestrat does not believe the saliva was blood-tinged: it was probably an off-color effect from the camera angle. (photo)

Source of Tape

Not Sourced to Ramseys. "The black duct tape used on JonBenet's mouth has also not been sourced to defendants. (SMF P 170; PSMF P 170.)...No similar duct tape was found in the house, nor is there evidence that defendants ever used or owned such duct tape. (SMF P 172; PSMF P 172.)" (Carnes 2003:18).
...
Black Duct tape is whitish on the sticky side. It does not, AFAIK, come in different widths. Gaffers tape is also black with a whitish sticky side and is available in different widths. Gaffers tape is very sticky and would probably adhere to an already wet surface better than duct tape. It's not an everyday product that is readily available in stores like duct tape.
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Old 1st October 2016, 08:01 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Black Duct tape is whitish on the sticky side. It does not, AFAIK, come in different widths. Gaffers tape is also black with a whitish sticky side and is available in different widths. Gaffers tape is very sticky and would probably adhere to an already wet surface better than duct tape. It's not an everyday product that is readily available in stores like duct tape.
I think John Ramsey said somewhere that the tape was the sort of tape he used when he went sailing with Fleet White. How convenient for Fleet White that Fleet touched the tape. That would have avoided any suspicion of fingerprints.
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Old 1st October 2016, 08:57 AM   #423
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There is some sort of blog on the internet about the Ramsey case. It was biased as usual against the Ramseys. That Kolar is a bungling detective. He doesn't seem to know any more about things like the red turtleneck, or the train tracks in the Ramsey case, than the average internet poster. The FBI,like Ron Walker from the Denver FBI need to up their game as well.

Kolar wrote some self-published 'Ramseys did it' book a few years ago which hardly anybody read. He had previously been a consultant to the Boulder Police Department. He is only of any interest now because he recently appeared on that 'Burke did it' CBS criminal libel TV show.

There is some background to this from that blog:

"Reporter Paula Woodward worked on the JonBenét case since it broke, and she provided some interesting revelations, notably that most other revelations were false. "Not a single leak was true," she said on The Killing Of JonBenét: Truth Uncovered. "There was no snow around the house. No handwriting expert has ever concluded that Patsy wrote the [ransom] notes. John didn't leave the home that evening, nor was any porn found."
The false confession

Getty Images
Nearly 10 years after the case first made headlines, the tragedy was in the news yet again in 2006 when John Mark Karr, a teacher living in Thailand, claimed he was guilty of JonBenét's murder—and that it was an accident resulting from a bizarre sexual encounter. He also claimed that he had drugged his victim.

Here's where it gets even creepier: none of that happened. DNA tests proved Karr was nowhere near the crime scene, and no traces of drugs were found in JonBenét's system. In fact, Beckner says authorities found photographic proof that Karr was in Georgia at the time of the murder, making his story impossible.

​There are still a lot of suspects

Getty Images

Detective Lou Smit worked on the case until his death in 2010 and kept a spreadsheet of all the suspects in the case, which is estimated to contain between 50 and 60 persons of interest. His daughter explained on The Killing Of JonBenét: Truth Uncovered, "Lou was working this case up until the day he died…He was very concerned that it was going to die with him. He started doing a lot of the investigation on his own…But his frustration there was that he had absolutely no investigative powers at all."
Burke couldn't stop smiling in his Dr. Phil interview


Straight shooting talk show host Dr. Phil McGraw interviewed JonBenét's brother, Burke, in September 2016. "I think the JonBenét Ramsey case is the biggest unsolved murder mystery of our generation," McGraw told FOX News, "and the missing link is Burke Ramsey, because in 20 years he has never spoken publicly and also he was interrogated three times," adding that Burke's personality is "very unique."

Unique, indeed. Though Burke was relatively forthcoming in his interview on Dr. Phil, his demeanor rubbed audiences the wrong way. Even during the interviews most heartbreaking moments, Burke couldn't stop grinning.

Dr. Phil said Burke's strange demeanor may not be that unusual, noting that Patsy reacted similarly shortly after JonBenét's murder. "Patsy faced similar criticism during the weeks and months after her daughter's death," McGraw said, explaining that everyone grieves differently. "I spent some time with him, and I have to tell you this is a really nice, young man. I can tell you [his smiling is] a matter of anxiety. It's just a matter of being socially uncomfortable…It's nothing weird. It's nothing creepy…I think for him it's just kind of a nervous smile…Even with that nervousness he wanted to come forward and tell his story because he knew he was going to be pushed to the forefront." Burke "does not want her to be forgotten," McGraw said. "He wants her killer to be found."

Burke talks to JonBenét

Getty Images

Burke told Dr. Phil that he has spoken to JonBenét since her death, noting that he believes she and their mother, Patsy, are together again. "[Our conversations are] like, 'Hey, thanks for looking out for me…Hope you're having fun up there, because I'm taking some test,'" he said (via People).

As for whether he thinks the crime will be solved in his lifetime, Burke says that he "keeps the hope alive [that it] will. I don't know, but you gotta never give up."
John Ramsey blames himself

Getty Images
JonBenét's father holds himself responsible for his daughter's death, telling Dr. Phil (via E! Online) that he thinks his daughter was murdered to punish him. "I sadly, and regretfully believe that, yes," John said.

Just days before the murder, John's company, Access Graphics, was featured in a high-profile article touting its record-breaking billion-dollar sales mark. John said he regrets publicizing that information and drawing attention to his family.

"In retrospect, I could have done two things differently," he said. "One is to be sure that we lived in a very secure house. We thought we lived in a very safe community. It was an old house, had lots of windows and doors." The second thing? "It's a good idea to be as anonymous as you can," John said. "Don't let your head rise up above the crowd, because there are people that will target you."

John insisted his appearance on Dr. Phil would be his last media interview about his daughter's case.
​The Ramseys are suing CBS

The Ramseys are reportedly suing CBS, the same network that gave Burke Ramsey an outlet to assert his innocence with Dr. Phil. Newsweek reports that the Ramsey family attorney, L. Lin Wood, claims that The Case of: JonBenét Ramsey, which also aired on the network, was a "false and unprofessional television attack" for alleging that Burke may be the culprit in the still-unsolved murder.

"I will be filing a lawsuit on behalf of Burke Ramsey," Wood said. "CBS's false and unprofessional attacks on this young man are disgusting and revolting." Wood also alleged that the network is made up of "corporate profit-mongers" and claimed that the documentary was chock full of "lies, misrepresentations, distortions and omissions," but declined to specify exactly what those were.

For their part, CBS told Reuters, "CBS stands by the broadcast and will do so in court."

Read More: http://www.nickiswift.com/4778/bizar..._campaign=clip
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Old 1st October 2016, 11:04 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
The meaning of your statement is lost in your use of gerunds.
Having seen the difference between actor/victim behaviors, calling LE is more consistent with being victimized than being the offender.
Do you mean that you personally have seen the difference between such behaviors? And that in your opinion, calling the police is consistent with the Ramsays' being victims?
Yes, on many occasions.

Calling LE and reporting a crime is consistent with either victimization or witnessing a crime, but making a report to LE can also be the initial act in making a false report for all manner of reasons - insurance fraud or similar scams, misdirection by an individual to deflect criminal charges or blame - Tawana Brawley comes to mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana...pe_allegations

But there have been many false reports to LE from family members in an attempt to cover up murder committed by the actor reporting the crime - it's far from unknown.
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Old 1st October 2016, 12:33 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
If 1) were true, someone would have pointed that out. 3) is a pretty remote possibility. No reason for the killer to give her food. And the bowl was left out on the table, and we know that the killer was a neat freak who put things away when he was finished. When I was 6, I would not have gotten up in the middle of the night and helped myself to a snack. Maybe that's because I grew up in an earlier generation.
In addition, while PR's and BR's fingerprints were found on the bowl, JBR's fingerprints were not, which argues against her having helped herself to the pineapple.
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Old 1st October 2016, 12:47 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
In addition, while PR's and BR's fingerprints were found on the bowl, JBR's fingerprints were not, which argues against her having helped herself to the pineapple.
In the CBS presentation the theory was floated that JBR finger dipped a piece of pineapple out of the bowl, and that's what set off the brother.

Plausible, but we'll probably never know.
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Old 1st October 2016, 02:28 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by yodaluver28 View Post
....
Once they were, he could quietly step into JB’s room and place the duct tape over her mouth and stun gun her on the side of her face (the stun gun theory has never been confirmed or disproven but nothing else fits the marks on her body better, certainly not the railroad tracks from the basement).
....
A stun gun (not a Taser) doesn't render anybody unconscious. It causes pain that the subject tries hard to pull away from and struggle against. If someone touched her with a stun gun, she would have made plenty of noise, even if someone was trying to cover her mouth. And the CBS panel showed pretty conclusively that the marks were not made by a stun gun. A hypothesis that depends on a stun gun is inherently flawed.
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Old 1st October 2016, 04:10 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In the CBS presentation the theory was floated that JBR finger dipped a piece of pineapple out of the bowl, and that's what set off the brother.

Plausible, but we'll probably never know.
Has the brother been in any trouble, or have any other history of violent rages?

If he was that volatile, I would think his teachers at school, his neighbors and others would be full of tales.
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Old 1st October 2016, 04:25 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Wow, great post! Very informative, and I agree with your conjecture. Would you care to cite a source for your specifics? If we can point to official information it will help convince the Burke-or-Patsy-did-it theorists.
Both informative and convincing.
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Old 1st October 2016, 08:26 PM   #430
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by yodaluver28 View Post
It makes far more sense if an intruder broke into the house, probably through the basement window,
The spider webs are inconsistent with someone gaining access through the broken window.

Quote:
bringing the flashlight, cord, duct tape, cloth, and rope with him in a paper bag.
He brought all that stuff but didn't bring a ransom note?

Quote:
Nothing in the note necessarily indicates that this person actually knew the Ramseys and had a real life beef with them. It's all movie dialogue bluster that could've been written by anyone.
ALL? So far I've found 3 lines that were taken from movies, one from a movie that one of the attendees at the Christmas party the Ramseys attended claimed was on the TV during the party. And there are still reasons to believe that the author knew the Ramseys.

Quote:
(the stun gun theory has never been confirmed or disproven but nothing else fits the marks on her body better, certainly not the railroad tracks from the basement).
Wrong.

Quote:
She was unconscious and could easily and quietly be taken to the basement.
Stun guns don't render people unconscious.

Quote:
The Burke did it theory doesn't account for the hemorrhaging and defensive scratches on her neck, which indicate that she was alive and had regained consciousness while the garrotte was placed on her.
There are other interpretations of those marks. Her head injury was quite severe (included an 8.5 inch skull fracture), so on what basis are you claiming that she regained consciousness?

Quote:
The head wound caused massive damage and inflammation and hemorrhaging indicate that she was alive when the head blow was struck but the very small amount of blood (about 1 1/2 tsp) indicates that the blow to the head was likely peri-mortem (just before death, while her circulation was compromised).
The coroner disagrees. He judged that the blow to the head occurred 45 minutes to 2 hours before the strangling.

Quote:
In other words, the head blow finished her off, it wasn't the beginning.
The coroner found that she died of suffocation.

Quote:
The Burke did it theory also doesn't account for the fact that she was sexually assaulted that night.
Only with a paint brush handle.

Quote:
What was done to JonBenet is something only a sadistic pedophile could do.
A sadistic pedophile who only attacked once?

Quote:
and under her fingernails (the fingernail DNA was too degraded to make a good match but there were several common markers so, it's believed to be that of her killer's as well).
Wrong. The fingernail DNA is known to come from 2 different males, neither of whom was the same person as left the DNA on her clothes.

Quote:
Then there's the pubic or axillary hair found on the blanket her body was wrapped in which matches no one in the family.
It was determined to be a hair from PR or someone in her family.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 12:03 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Wow! You know absolutely nothing about female anatomy if you believe this.
Are you saying that a girl's underwear can't be moved to the side?
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:22 AM   #432
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Just finished watching the two part documentary "The Case of JonBenet Ramsay" on TV. After seeing this, I'm pretty well convinced now that there was no intruder. The brother killed her, either accidentally or unintentionally, and the parents covered it up by staging the scene to look like an intruder murder.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 02:44 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Just finished watching the two part documentary "The Case of JonBenet Ramsay" on TV. After seeing this, I'm pretty well convinced now that there was no intruder. The brother killed her, either accidentally or unintentionally, and the parents covered it up by staging the scene to look like an intruder murder.
Well you are wrong. Not for the first time. Respond to #380.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 08:12 AM   #434
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Are you saying that a girl's underwear can't be moved to the side?
Not if she is wearing leggings, as JBR was.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 08:20 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post

A man in his early 20's who likes action movies ,,,,
You obliviously have given this too much thought. Where were you that night?
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Old 2nd October 2016, 08:27 AM   #436
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
You obliviously have given this too much thought. Where were you that night?
I wouldn't have had to have been there. I have telekinetic powers.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 10:24 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
John Ramsey wanted to get out of Boulder on the day JonBenet's body was found because his entire house had become a crime scene full of fingerprint dust and he was unable to stay there.
And of course there were no friends that he could stay with.

Has it ever been verified that the Whites or any of the other people whom the Ramseys claimed had keys to their house actually had keys? The Ramseys reportedly first said that JR's son and the housekeeper had keys and then later claimed that a number of friends had keys.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 10:43 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Has the brother been in any trouble, or have any other history of violent rages?

If he was that volatile, I would think his teachers at school, his neighbors and others would be full of tales.
Patsy's mother (I believe it was her mother, possibly her sister) had given her a couple of books about troubled children. I will see if I can find what they were titled. Also Burke was known to defecate in JonBenet's room and there was smearing involved.
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Old 2nd October 2016, 11:04 AM   #439
Ampulla of Vater
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Has the brother been in any trouble, or have any other history of violent rages?

If he was that volatile, I would think his teachers at school, his neighbors and others would be full of tales.
This is an excerpt from Kolar's book:

Originally Posted by James Kolar
I had also found it interesting that the Paugh’s had reportedly purchased several books on childhood behavior for the Ramsey
family. The titles of the books were intriguing:

• The Hurried Child – Growing Up Too Fast, by David Elkind;
• Children at Risk, Dobson / Bruer;
• Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong, Kilpatrick.

When exploring the nature of the content of these three books, I wondered what might have been taking place in the home that
prompted the grandparents to purchase these types of childhood behavioral books for the family.

I had reviewed an investigator’s report that documented a 1997 interview with former Ramsey nanny – housekeeper Geraldine
Vodicka, who stated that Burke had smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during his mother’s first bout with cancer. She told
investigators that Nedra Paugh, who was visiting the Ramsey home at the time, had directed her to clean up the mess.

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had
written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her
and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries
had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of
JonBenét’s body.

I wondered whether fecal material observed in pajamas thought to belong to Burke, and smeared on the box of candy in
his sister’s bedroom, could have been related to the symptoms of scatological behavior associated with SBP.

Last edited by Ampulla of Vater; 2nd October 2016 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 3rd October 2016, 03:14 AM   #440
Samson
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well you are wrong. Not for the first time. Respond to #380.
I agree with you lionking.
There was an intruder, yodaluver28 explained it very well.
Chris Halkides is on the case and the intruder theory has consistency with first responders and all sorts of anamnestic evidence.
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