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Old 9th January 2019, 06:40 PM   #321
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Agree with everything in this post except for the highlighted portion.
Sorry. No thermodynamic free energy. All existing energy is evenly distributed. No work can be done because there are no energy gradients. All matter has decayed via the slow evaporation of black holes. My bad for being glib and imprecise.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:51 PM   #322
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Ah, all good then, we are definitely on the same page.

The really scary part is what happens after immense amounts of time when a thermodynamic fluctuation brings that system out of equilibrium...
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:54 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Ah, all good then, we are definitely on the same page.

The really scary part is what happens after immense amounts of time when a thermodynamic fluctuation brings that system out of equilibrium...
Well that's the most wonderful part. The universe could exist in complete thermodynamic equilibrium for trillions of years until such a fluctuation occurs and... a whole new universe of matter and energy starts to expand!
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:59 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well that's the most wonderful part. The universe could exist in complete thermodynamic equilibrium for trillions of years until such a fluctuation occurs and... a whole new universe of matter and energy starts to expand!
BANG!
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:05 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
BANG!
A big one.

ETA: It should be added that we don't know that this is what's going to happen. Scientists are pretty sure that our universe will end in a heat death, but the idea of a new universe emerging from quantum fluctuations out of such a state, while largely consistent with what we do know, is at this time pretty much entirely speculative.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:11 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A big one.

ETA: It should be added that we don't know that this is what's going to happen. Scientists are pretty sure that our universe will end in a heat death, but the idea of a new universe emerging from quantum fluctuations out of such a state, while largely consistent with what we do know, is at this time pretty much entirely speculative.
The real problem is that such a universe would be very unlikely to look like ours, yet everything we know at present leads to the far future universe undergoing such a thermal fluctuation.

There is some work being done in how to avoid such thermal fluctuations, but that is, as you say, speculative.

(note that it is a thermal not quantum fluctuation that we're talking about).
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:17 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Fcat: the giraffe's neck has the same number of bones as a human's, seven.
A Giraffe's neck is to short to allow it's mouth to reach the ground so unlike most other 4 legged mammals it has to splay it's legs in order to drink.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:29 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
A Giraffe's neck is to short to allow it's mouth to reach the ground so unlike most other 4 legged mammals it has to splay it's legs in order to drink.
Yes, I saw that on QI as well.
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Old 9th January 2019, 10:41 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You've lost me... let's start over.


If anything is 3:2:1 then surely it is cylinder:sphere:cone ? I just double checked the math and that looks correct to me.

Either way, clearly a hemisphere would be less than half of the cylinder? So there is not way it would be the 2 in 3:2:1. I think catsmate is correct in the bit of trivia; he just typed hemisphere instead of sphere on accident.
To put this at rest I looked up the formulas for the 3 solids with a circular base with radius r and height r and came up with the following:

VZylinder = 3*pi*r3/3
VHemisphere = 2*pi*r3/3
VCone = 1*pi*r3/3

So I say catsmate is indeed correct.

EDIT: Forgot to add that it would be correct also for a sphere. The height of cylinder and cone have to be doubled, so all volumes are doubled and hence the ratios stay the same.

Last edited by TheGnome; 9th January 2019 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 10th January 2019, 12:06 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Not to mention a whale falling from space.
Erm. Well, I'm pretty sure it will burn up. Blubber is a good insulator, but it's not that good.
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Old 10th January 2019, 01:10 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
Erm. Well, I'm pretty sure it will burn up. Blubber is a good insulator, but it's not that good.
it wasn't in an orbit - it just materializes above the earth alongside a bowl of petunias. So all friction would come from acceleration from gravity, not slowing down in the upper atmosphere for re-entry.

My guess would be that recognizable bits of whale would make it all the way to a few inches above the surface.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:20 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Wouldn't that mean that Great Auks are penguins and antarctic penguins aren't penguins, penguins just look like penguins?
That's exactly what wiki tells us.
Quote:
The word penguin first appears in the 16th century as a synonym for great auk. When European explorers discovered what are today known as penguins in the Southern Hemisphere, they noticed their similar appearance to the great auk of the Northern Hemisphere, and named them after this bird, although they are not closely related.
The similarity of appearance is an oft-cited example of "convergent evolution".
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:00 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it wasn't in an orbit - it just materializes above the earth alongside a bowl of petunias.
Above "an alien planet". There may or may not have been an atmosphere.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/198...t-that-against

Quote:
Another thing that got forgotten was the fact that against all probability a sperm whale had suddenly been called into existence several miles above the surface of an alien planet.

<...>

ETA: There probably was an atmosphere:
Quote:
And hey, what’s about this whistling roaring sound going past what I’m suddenly going to call my head?
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:59 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
52! is just a really big number.
Your brain just cannot grasp it.
52 Factorial

In short, set a timer for 52! seconds.

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883 277824000000000000 seconds.
GO!

Walk slowly around the equator taking a step every billion years.
After each round trip remove a drop of water from the pacific ocean.
When the ocean is dry, put a sheet of paper on the ground.
Fill the ocean up again, empty it again and add another sheet of paper.
When the stack is as high as the distance from the earth to the sun, look at the timer.

806381751709438785716606368564037669752895054408832778 24000000000000 seconds remaining... and counting.

Carry on as above but remove the stack again, a page at a time.
Start over, do it again.


You only have time to do it about 3000 times.
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Last edited by Cheetah; 10th January 2019 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:51 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Your brain just cannot grasp it.
52 Factorial

In short, set a timer for 52! seconds.

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883 277824000000000000 seconds.
GO!

Walk slowly around the equator taking a step every billion years.
After each round trip remove a drop of water from the pacific ocean.
When the ocean is dry, put a sheet of paper on the ground.
Fill the ocean up again, empty it again and add another sheet of paper.
When the stack is as high as the distance from the earth to the sun, look at the timer.

806381751709438785716606368564037669752895054408832778 24000000000000 seconds remaining... and counting.

Carry on as above but remove the stack again, a page at a time.
Start over, do it again.


You only have time to do it about 3000 times.
I'm getting only about 1200 times. I'm guessing you're using thin paper and not taking bathroom breaks.

(seriously, I had to do the math on this one)
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:58 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Your brain just cannot grasp it.
52 Factorial

In short, set a timer for 52! seconds.

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883 277824000000000000 seconds.
GO!

Walk slowly around the equator taking a step every billion years.
After each round trip remove a drop of water from the pacific ocean.
When the ocean is dry, put a sheet of paper on the ground.
Fill the ocean up again, empty it again and add another sheet of paper.
When the stack is as high as the distance from the earth to the sun, look at the timer.

806381751709438785716606368564037669752895054408832778 24000000000000 seconds remaining... and counting.

Carry on as above but remove the stack again, a page at a time.
Start over, do it again.


You only have time to do it about 3000 times.
Nice!
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:02 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
Above "an alien planet". There may or may not have been an atmosphere.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/198...t-that-against




ETA: There probably was an atmosphere:

Given that the planet is Magrathea and Arthur, Ford and co land on it and go for a walk, I think there's an atmosphere.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:26 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by TheGnome View Post
To put this at rest I looked up the formulas for the 3 solids with a circular base with radius r and height r and came up with the following:

VZylinder = 3*pi*r3/3
VHemisphere = 2*pi*r3/3
VCone = 1*pi*r3/3

So I say catsmate is indeed correct.

EDIT: Forgot to add that it would be correct also for a sphere. The height of cylinder and cone have to be doubled, so all volumes are doubled and hence the ratios stay the same.
Adding the sphere makes it 4:3:2:1
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:03 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Adding the sphere makes it 4:3:2:1
How can a sphere and a hemisphere be of the same dimensions?
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:35 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
How can a sphere and a hemisphere be of the same dimensions?
Sphere and hemisphere both have only one dimension: radius
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:47 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
How can a sphere and a hemisphere be of the same dimensions?
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Sphere and hemisphere both have only one dimension: radius
Except in the original example, IIRC, it was about BASE diameter, which for a sphere is zero.
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Old 10th January 2019, 08:53 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
Your brain just cannot grasp it.
52 Factorial

In short, set a timer for 52! seconds.

80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883 277824000000000000 seconds.
GO!

Walk slowly around the equator taking a step every billion years.
After each round trip remove a drop of water from the pacific ocean.
When the ocean is dry, put a sheet of paper on the ground.
Fill the ocean up again, empty it again and add another sheet of paper.
When the stack is as high as the distance from the earth to the sun, look at the timer.

806381751709438785716606368564037669752895054408832778 24000000000000 seconds remaining... and counting.

Carry on as above but remove the stack again, a page at a time.
Start over, do it again.


You only have time to do it about 3000 times.
Slight derail, but when it comes to numbers that can't be grasped, I occasionally read the Wikipedia page on Graham's Number just to have my mind boggled by it's enormousness.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:04 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Except in the original example, IIRC, it was about BASE diameter, which for a sphere is zero.
The diameter of the base of a hemisphere is 2*r
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:07 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Slight derail, but when it comes to numbers that can't be grasped, I occasionally read the Wikipedia page on Graham's Number just to have my mind boggled by it's enormousness.

I genuinely think my brain goes up to about 100, or maybe 1000, after that it's just 'lots'. That's not to say I can't work with really big numbers, I just don't think my brain can really conceptualise them.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:16 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Except in the original example, IIRC, it was about BASE diameter, which for a sphere is zero.
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The diameter of the base of a hemisphere is 2*r
Yes, of course. Someone above was trying to say that it should have been a sphere, not a hemisphere, when the original example was about volumes relative to base diameter.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:17 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I'm getting only about 1200 times. I'm guessing you're using thin paper and not taking bathroom breaks.

(seriously, I had to do the math on this one)

My first thought was, "Do I get to take a break every thousand years to go sharpen my beak?"
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Adding the sphere makes it 4:3:2:1
Here's an illustration with a sphere:

cone sphere cylinder

Note the heights of cone and cylinder are h=2*r, as is the "height" of the sphere.

I could not find an illustration with a hemisphere but it's simple to visualize, starting from the above. The important thing is that the heights are now only h=1*r.

It is used as a standard example for Cavalieri's Principle
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:57 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
My first thought was, "Do I get to take a break every thousand years to go sharpen my beak?"
That's a million beak-breaks for every step you take, so no.

Yeah, I'm that kind of hard-driving boss.
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Old 10th January 2019, 10:00 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Slight derail, but when it comes to numbers that can't be grasped, I occasionally read the Wikipedia page on Graham's Number just to have my mind boggled by it's enormousness.
Surpassed, however, by the XKCD Number (in panel 3).

Dave
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Old 10th January 2019, 02:23 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
One of my favourite scientific facts is imperfection.

Elliptical not circular orbits, spheroidal not spherical planets, spinning and orbital speeds slowing down and so on. I like this because it thumbs it's nose at religious claims of gods making perfect stuff.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Perfection is a subjective, aesthetic judgement.

"Ellipses are imperfect" is neither "scientific" nor a "fact".
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Wow! Neither scientific or factual hey. Must call on your expertise about this stuff more often.
Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You are incorrect.

"Perfect" is a scientific descriptor.

As in "a perfect straight line" or, more commonly, "a perfect circle". It simply means "no variation from exact".


You are correct in that whether or not it is "cool" or not is a subjective feeling.
Well said This is The End.

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Which is why you can have a perfect ellipse.*


*Although, the planetary orbits all have a bit of wonkiness- so still not perfect.

A perfect ellipse is possible as a concept if it is symmetrical about it's long axis but as you note it does not exist in nature. I know I won't get much mileage out of this with the religious who like to hang the word "perfect" on all kinds of things.
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:01 PM   #351
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I knew that neutrinos are coy little beasts but I had no idea ...

In Brian Green's multiverse book, The Hidden Reality, he notes that they can pass through a LIGHT YEAR of solid lead and not interact with it in the least!



Cheers,
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Old 10th January 2019, 03:11 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by JDC View Post
I knew that neutrinos are coy little beasts but I had no idea ...

In Brian Green's multiverse book, The Hidden Reality, he notes that they can pass through a LIGHT YEAR of solid lead and not interact with it in the least!



Cheers,
Jeff
My favorite neutrino fact is that about 65 billion pass through every square centimeter of your body every second and over a trillion trillion will pass through your body over your life time. Neutrinos are thought to have a very small, non-zero mass. So mass is constantly passing through you. How much? See:

http://timeblimp.com/?page_id=1033

The result? If you take the entire human population that has ever lived and compute the amount of neutrinos passing through them over their entire lifetime, you would have approximately 0.15 grams of mass.

Boggles my mind.
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Old 10th January 2019, 04:04 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Slight derail, but when it comes to numbers that can't be grasped, I occasionally read the Wikipedia page on Graham's Number just to have my mind boggled by it's enormousness.
I understood several of the words on that page.
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:15 PM   #354
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
My favorite neutrino fact is that about 65 billion pass through every square centimeter of your body every second and over a trillion trillion will pass through your body over your life time. Neutrinos are thought to have a very small, non-zero mass. So mass is constantly passing through you. How much? See:

http://timeblimp.com/?page_id=1033

The result? If you take the entire human population that has ever lived and compute the amount of neutrinos passing through them over their entire lifetime, you would have approximately 0.15 grams of mass.

Boggles my mind.
Neutrinos! Huh!
What are they good for?
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:31 PM   #355
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Neutrinos! Huh!
What are they good for?
Balancing the matter-energy equation say it again!
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:32 PM   #356
Steve
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Neutrinos! Huh!
What are they good for?
Absolutely nuthin'!!!
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Old 10th January 2019, 06:48 PM   #357
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I genuinely think my brain goes up to about 100, or maybe 1000, after that it's just 'lots'. That's not to say I can't work with really big numbers, I just don't think my brain can really conceptualise them.
As usual there's an XKCD for that:

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Old 10th January 2019, 06:53 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by TheGnome View Post
Here's an illustration with a sphere:

cone sphere cylinder

Note the heights of cone and cylinder are h=2*r, as is the "height" of the sphere.

I could not find an illustration with a hemisphere but it's simple to visualize, starting from the above. The important thing is that the heights are now only h=1*r.

It is used as a standard example for Cavalieri's Principle
Using that picture, it makes sense that a sphere OR a hemisphere would work, but not both in the same cylinder, because for a hemisphere, the distance from the bottom to the top of the cylinder would be the radius of the hemisphere, while the cylinder base would be the diameter of the sphere / hemisphere.

So the sphere and hemisphere would have the same diameter to the edge of the cylinder, but top to bottom of the cylinder the diameter of the sphere = radius of the hemiphere, so the sphere would be flattish, footballish.
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Old 10th January 2019, 07:54 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
One of my favourite scientific facts is imperfection.

Elliptical not circular orbits, spheroidal not spherical planets, spinning and orbital speeds slowing down and so on. I like this because it thumbs it's nose at religious claims of gods making perfect stuff.
Maybe there are gods who think that all those things are perfect.

I don't understand what is imperfect about an ellipse. A circle isn't better, it's just a special case ellipse with both foci in the same place.
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Old 10th January 2019, 09:54 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I'm getting only about 1200 times. I'm guessing you're using thin paper and not taking bathroom breaks.


Single ply.

Originally Posted by JDC View Post
I knew that neutrinos are coy little beasts but I had no idea ...

In Brian Green's multiverse book, The Hidden Reality, he notes that they can pass through a LIGHT YEAR of solid lead and not interact with it in the least!



Cheers,
Jeff

XKCD Lethal Neutrinos
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