Dear Users... (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) - Page 39

theprestige · 14th November 2019, 05:56 PM

After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up.

arthwollipot · 14th November 2019, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up.

I haven't heard back yet about the interview. My fingers are so crossed they're practically braided.

arthwollipot · 14th November 2019, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

This is the genesis of many "This new version of [insert name of OS, program, etc. here] really sucks." complaints.

Truth, right there.

Norman Alexander · 14th November 2019, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"My computer looks different."
"Yes I know. Your PC was upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10."
"But it looks all different!"
"Well.. yes. It's a new OS. All your files, folders, and programs are still there."
"BUT IT LOOKS DIFFERENT!"
"Yes... I know... it's... a.... new... operating... system. It still works the same, it just looks different."
"But now I don't know it works."
"It still works the same, it just looks different."
"Where's my start menu?"
"The exact same place it was before, it's just square instead of round."
"Okay clicking on it... OH LORDY LORDY MERCY ME THIS ALL LOOKS SO DIFFERENT!"

*Repeat for every single step of every single process of every single task, repeated for every single users.*

My response goes along these lines:

Me: Do you own a car?

Them: Yes, it's a Zaphorets MS123! Nice car.

Me: Did you own a car before that one?

Them: Sure, a Zil SM321.

Me: Did it have the steering wheel in a different place? Pedals in a different order? Dashboard on the roof?

Them: .....no. Still basically the same place, still work the same. Why do you ask?

Me: So you got a newer car that looks a bit different but drives the same way. And you had no trouble with that adjustment. Which is much like what you have on your PC now.

Them: *penny drops* Oh....

arthwollipot · 14th November 2019, 06:23 PM

Nice analogy.

Gord_in_Toronto · 14th November 2019, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"My computer looks different."
"Yes I know. Your PC was upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10."
"But it looks all different!"
"Well.. yes. It's a new OS. All your files, folders, and programs are still there."
"BUT IT LOOKS DIFFERENT!"
"Yes... I know... it's... a.... new... operating... system. It still works the same, it just looks different."
"But now I don't know it works."
"It still works the same, it just looks different."
"Where's my start menu?"
"The exact same place it was before, it's just square instead of round."
"Okay clicking on it... OH LORDY LORDY MERCY ME THIS ALL LOOKS SO DIFFERENT!"

*Repeat for every single step of every single process of every single task, repeated for every single users.*

Someone is channeling my brain. I just "upgraded" to a new Win 10 computer mostly because my Win 7 machine was g e t t i n g r e a l l y s l o w. The first thing I Googled was "How to make your Windows 10 computer look like Windows 7". Amusingly enough, my 7 machine has seen the writing on the wall and decided to speed up!

Blue Mountain · 15th November 2019, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Someone is channeling my brain. I just "upgraded" to a new Win 10 computer mostly because my Win 7 machine was g e t t i n g r e a l l y s l o w. The first thing I Googled was "How to make your Windows 10 computer look like Windows 7". Amusingly enough, my 7 machine has seen the writing on the wall and decided to speed up!

My Windows 10 computer is running like a charm.

I put Linux on it

quadraginta · 15th November 2019, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

My Windows 10 computer is running like a charm.

I put Linux on it

My Win 10 machines have always run just fine.

But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux.

The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades.

Gord_in_Toronto · 15th November 2019, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

My Win 10 machines have always run just fine.

But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux.

The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades.

Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware.

The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up.

quadraginta · 15th November 2019, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware.

The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up.

It isn't anything I have against any of the *IXs or *Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive.

All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them.

Wudang · 16th November 2019, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware.

The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up.

I have an os/2 iso somewhere and a laptop sitting idle. Hmmm

zooterkin · 16th November 2019, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

My Win 10 machines have always run just fine.

But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux.

The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades.

Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc.

It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th November 2019, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

It isn't anything I have against any of the *IXs or *Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive.

All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them.

I didn't really think your post was directed at me.

I just wanted to establish I had a modicum of right to complain.

At one point in history Microsoft was very heavily in to UNIX via a variant called XENIX. I used this on what, ISTR was a 286-based PC-AT for a project for a client where we evaluated Ethernet against Token Ring.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th November 2019, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc.

It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop.

One of the biggest problems herding Unix programmers is that they all want to modify everything all the time. Trying to get a stable system requires a huge whip.

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th November 2019, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

I have an os/2 iso somewhere and a laptop sitting idle. Hmmm

Would you believe that OS/2 "development" continues? As much as possible with a user base measured I would guess in the hundreds and no access to the base code as a result of the unresolved feud between IBM and Microsoft.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArcaOS

Wudang · 16th November 2019, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Would you believe that OS/2 "development" continues? As much as possible with a user base measured I would guess in the hundreds and no access to the base code as a result of the unresolved feud between IBM and Microsoft.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArcaOS

Interesting. Brad Wardell wanted to get IBM to allow him to maintain a consumer version of OS/2 but IBM claimed they couldn't generate a part number. Odd considering how IBM Greenock generated part nos for PCs they built out of whatever was lying around the plant.

Blue Mountain · 16th November 2019, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

It isn't anything I have against any of the *IXs or *Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive.

All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them.

For sure. However, novices on Windows systems, if they're not really familiar with computers or who refuse to learn, are just as lost on a Windows system as they would be with KDE or Gnome.

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc.

I find KDE to to be very decent. Sometimes I think Gnome would be very useful for novices because it seems to be the epitome of "perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

There's also the adage, "The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned."

Log files filling up can be a problem. Fortunately distributions these days usually have well-defined logrotate configurations for their packages.

Quote:

It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop.

Incompetent users are the bane of all support people, regardless of the operating system they're using. I dare suspect if the entirety of the user interface was one button labelled ON and another OFF, some users would find a way to screw it up. And others would have a fit if the arrangement switched from vertical to horizontal during a update.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

One of the biggest problems herding Unix programmers is that they all want to modify everything all the time. Trying to get a stable system requires a huge whip.

Yeah, Linux programmers as a whole tend to have a bad case of OS/NIH (that is, "Oh, shiny!" and "Not invented here.") One interesting thing about Windows is how much of its core functionality originated with XP and has carried on since. The user interface has changed, at times dramatically. For example, Microsoft is moving away from the Control Panel in favour of Settings.

Darat · 18th November 2019, 04:32 AM

Just helped a local store with a problem with an old Nexus 7 table. They use it for scanning and stock checking. It was seemingly not charging and wouldn't power on. I remembered reading about thisp bug years ago, quick search on Google for a solution literally "nexus 7 won't power on". Second, expanded link had the solution so didn't even need to go to the website itself.

Tried it and the Nexus started up.

Then she said "can you write that down", I said just type it into Google, 'oh I can never follow that I'm not (Joe have you had your blood pressure tablet and tranquilizer..) a technical person".

The solution was literally to press and hold the power and volume down until a menu appears, let go and then press the power button again.

Because I am such a nice person I started to write this down... and I kid you not I got "What's the power button?"

What is astonishing is that she then got her iphone out, took a picture of what I'd written down, then shared that picture via her WhatsApp group and posted a picture on I assume the store's Instagram of the working tablet....

arthwollipot · 18th November 2019, 05:05 PM

Who's got two thumbs and an interview?

Myriad · 18th November 2019, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Who's got two thumbs and an interview?

Louis the Vampire.

Wudang · 18th November 2019, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Who's got two thumbs and an interview?

A yakuza enforcer being debriefed?

Orphia Nay · 18th November 2019, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up.

Is that IT people's fault? There's a never-ending supply of OS upgrades.

Tell us about what you do if you want to really brag instead of humble-brag.

erlando · 19th November 2019, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Who's got two thumbs and an interview?

Congratulations! Go get'em.

Armitage72 · 19th November 2019, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Then she said "can you write that down", I said just type it into Google, 'oh I can never follow that I'm not (Joe have you had your blood pressure tablet and tranquilizer..) a technical person".

When I gave computer instructions to my mother, she had to write down "hold Ctrl to select multiple things".

Faydra · 19th November 2019, 10:35 AM

Customer: Can you make this change right away?
Me: Sorry - code freeze for the holidays, come back in January.

Customer #2: Really need this change, please
Me: Sorry - code freeze for the holidays, come back in January.

My Entire Team: Yay, we can finally get stuff DONE!

TragicMonkey · 21st November 2019, 02:14 PM

Omfg.

Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code."
Them: "Sure thing!"

They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes.

Dr. Keith · 21st November 2019, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Omfg.

Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code."
Them: "Sure thing!"

They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes.

I feel so evil for laughing so hard at this.

theprestige · 21st November 2019, 02:23 PM

Computing is a text-based medium. Yes, there are some end-users of some applications who just need pictures, but that's not us. It never ceases to amaze and depress me that a software developer will send a screenshot of job logs, instead of copying and pasting the logs.

erlando · 21st November 2019, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Omfg.

Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code."
Them: "Sure thing!"

They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes.

You should have shotguns for that kind of deal.

Hellbound · 21st November 2019, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I feel so evil for laughing so hard at this.

I shared with friends. We all laughed.

TragicMonkey · 21st November 2019, 03:09 PM

Oh, it's even worse than I thought. The original data? Was in an Excel spreadsheet. She scrolled through it, taking screenshots as she went, pasting them into another Excel spreadsheet. It wasn't just one big JPEG like I thought, it's dozens. She carefully lined them up when she pasted them. For neatness.

Norman Alexander · 21st November 2019, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Omfg.

Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code."
Them: "Sure thing!"

They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes.

Had that done to us once but it was a Word doc.

Sent a reply with: (1) message: cannot decode attachment (2) jpeg of page ininstruction booklet for how to do windows text cut-and-paste...as an AVI.

Wudang · 21st November 2019, 05:06 PM

erlando · 22nd November 2019, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Oh, it's even worse than I thought. The original data? Was in an Excel spreadsheet. She scrolled through it, taking screenshots as she went, pasting them into another Excel spreadsheet. It wasn't just one big JPEG like I thought, it's dozens. She carefully lined them up when she pasted them. For neatness.

Think of all the time she spent on lining them up.

People like that should be shot. Or at least educated as to what constitutes usable data transfers.

zooterkin · 22nd November 2019, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Wudang

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/norm_no...ile_format.png

I had a few of those in my time. Screenshots in Word documents, so you couldn’t easily resize them to read the tiny text. Data that was a simple text file on the original computer that was cut and pasted into a Word document in sections, losing formatting (tabs, spaces, new lines, etc.) which was important.

Wudang · 22nd November 2019, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I had a few of those in my time. Screenshots in Word documents, so you couldn’t easily resize them to read the tiny text. Data that was a simple text file on the original computer that was cut and pasted into a Word document in sections, losing formatting (tabs, spaces, new lines, etc.) which was important.

Screenshots with a san-serif font that made it impossible to differentiate between lower-case l (L) and upper case i etc where either were possible: eg error codes. Data pasted into excel and being mangled as a date format or scientific notation etc. Oh yes.

Dabop · 22nd November 2019, 04:19 AM

TragicMonkey · 22nd November 2019, 07:57 AM

Whew! All fixed. Turns out the perp wasn't as stupid as I thought, the source spreadsheet was Excel "protected" so she couldn't copy/paste. I just wish she'd mentioned that before she spent a day doing screenshots. Excel "protection" is useless. Exported as text, imported into new Excel file. Great protection, there, Microsoft.

Another method to crack protection is to export/import PDF into Adobe then export as Excel. Or change the .xlsx extension to .zip to get to the xml and edit the protection tag out. Half-ass security makes extra work but doesn't actually protect anything.

Dr. Keith · 22nd November 2019, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Whew! All fixed. Turns out the perp wasn't as stupid as I thought, the source spreadsheet was Excel "protected" so she couldn't copy/paste. I just wish she'd mentioned that before she spent a day doing screenshots. Excel "protection" is useless. Exported as text, imported into new Excel file. Great protection, there, Microsoft.

Another method to crack protection is to export/import PDF into Adobe then export as Excel. Or change the .xlsx extension to .zip to get to the xml and edit the protection tag out. Half-ass security makes extra work but doesn't actually protect anything.

My understanding is that the "protection" is really only meant to keep low level users from screwing up someone else's hard work. More like a sneeze guard at the salad bar than a locked safe.

Armitage72 · 22nd November 2019, 08:17 AM

The pain I have at work is certification bodies that send documentation as secured PDFs, so I have to print them and then scan them to create a new PDF so I can add the file properties that our IT department requires prior to upload to the company intranet. I used to use a freeware PDF unlocker, but it would produce blank pages with some PDFs. I understand that they don't want people creating fraudulent certificates from their PDFs, but it's still annoying.

14th November 2019, 05:57 PM	#1522
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Posts: 68,566	Originally Posted by theprestige After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up. I haven't heard back yet about the interview. My fingers are so crossed they're practically braided.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

14th November 2019, 06:01 PM	#1523
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Posts: 68,566	Originally Posted by quadraginta This is the genesis of many "This new version of [insert name of OS, program, etc. here] really sucks." complaints. Truth, right there.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

14th November 2019, 06:16 PM	#1524
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Southern hemisphere Posts: 7,790	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "My computer looks different." "Yes I know. Your PC was upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10." "But it looks all different!" "Well.. yes. It's a new OS. All your files, folders, and programs are still there." "BUT IT LOOKS DIFFERENT!" "Yes... I know... it's... a.... new... operating... system. It still works the same, it just looks different." "But now I don't know it works." "It still works the same, it just looks different." "Where's my start menu?" "The exact same place it was before, it's just square instead of round." "Okay clicking on it... OH LORDY LORDY MERCY ME THIS ALL LOOKS SO DIFFERENT!" Repeat for every single step of every single process of every single task, repeated for every single users. My response goes along these lines: Me: Do you own a car? Them: Yes, it's a Zaphorets MS123! Nice car. Me: Did you own a car before that one? Them: Sure, a Zil SM321. Me: Did it have the steering wheel in a different place? Pedals in a different order? Dashboard on the roof? Them: .....no. Still basically the same place, still work the same. Why do you ask? Me: So you got a newer car that looks a bit different but drives the same way. And you had no trouble with that adjustment. Which is much like what you have on your PC now. Them: penny drops Oh....
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

14th November 2019, 06:23 PM	#1525
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Posts: 68,566	Nice analogy.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

14th November 2019, 08:21 PM	#1526
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19,801	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "My computer looks different." "Yes I know. Your PC was upgraded from Windows 7 to Windows 10." "But it looks all different!" "Well.. yes. It's a new OS. All your files, folders, and programs are still there." "BUT IT LOOKS DIFFERENT!" "Yes... I know... it's... a.... new... operating... system. It still works the same, it just looks different." "But now I don't know it works." "It still works the same, it just looks different." "Where's my start menu?" "The exact same place it was before, it's just square instead of round." "Okay clicking on it... OH LORDY LORDY MERCY ME THIS ALL LOOKS SO DIFFERENT!" Repeat for every single step of every single process of every single task, repeated for every single users. Someone is channeling my brain. I just "upgraded" to a new Win 10 computer mostly because my Win 7 machine was g e t t i n g r e a l l y s l o w. The first thing I Googled was "How to make your Windows 10 computer look like Windows 7". Amusingly enough, my 7 machine has seen the writing on the wall and decided to speed up!
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

14th November 2019, 05:56 PM	#1521
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 47,223	After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up.

15th November 2019, 12:15 AM	#1527
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,262	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Someone is channeling my brain. I just "upgraded" to a new Win 10 computer mostly because my Win 7 machine was g e t t i n g r e a l l y s l o w. The first thing I Googled was "How to make your Windows 10 computer look like Windows 7". Amusingly enough, my 7 machine has seen the writing on the wall and decided to speed up! My Windows 10 computer is running like a charm. I put Linux on it
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

15th November 2019, 05:15 PM	#1528
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 25,754	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain My Windows 10 computer is running like a charm. I put Linux on it My Win 10 machines have always run just fine. But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux. The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

15th November 2019, 07:12 PM	#1529
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19,801	Originally Posted by quadraginta My Win 10 machines have always run just fine. But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux. The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades. Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware. The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Last edited by Gord_in_Toronto; 15th November 2019 at 07:32 PM. Reason: Just remembered it was an 11/45 not an 11/20 ;)

15th November 2019, 08:20 PM	#1530
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 25,754	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware. The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up. It isn't anything I have against any of the IXs or Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive. All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

16th November 2019, 04:10 AM	#1531
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,047	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Don't hit me with a Linux stick. In 1982 I managed the conversion of a geographical mapping system from UNIX Version 7 to UNIX System III (don't even ask!). And, simultaneously, from a DEC PDP-11/45 to a Perkin-Elmer 3220. And from 16-bit to 32-bit hardware. The best OS of all time is, of course, OS/2. I'll let you know when Microsoft eventually catches up. I have an os/2 iso somewhere and a laptop sitting idle. Hmmm
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

16th November 2019, 04:47 AM	#1532
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 47,124	Originally Posted by quadraginta My Win 10 machines have always run just fine. But if you think the people complaining about switching from Win7 to 8 or 10 have been bitching a lot, just imagine if they had had to switch to Linux. The ones with the background, knowledge, and experience to switch to Linux with equanimity are, for the most part, not the ones who have been complaining about Windows upgrades. Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc. It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

16th November 2019, 07:30 AM	#1533
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19,801	Originally Posted by quadraginta It isn't anything I have against any of the IXs or Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive. All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them. I didn't really think your post was directed at me. I just wanted to establish I had a modicum of right to complain. At one point in history Microsoft was very heavily in to UNIX via a variant called XENIX. I used this on what, ISTR was a 286-based PC-AT for a project for a client where we evaluated Ethernet against Token Ring.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

16th November 2019, 07:33 AM	#1534
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19,801	Originally Posted by zooterkin Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc. It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop. One of the biggest problems herding Unix programmers is that they all want to modify everything all the time. Trying to get a stable system requires a huge whip.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

16th November 2019, 07:41 AM	#1535
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19,801	Originally Posted by Wudang I have an os/2 iso somewhere and a laptop sitting idle. Hmmm Would you believe that OS/2 "development" continues? As much as possible with a user base measured I would guess in the hundreds and no access to the base code as a result of the unresolved feud between IBM and Microsoft. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArcaOS
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

16th November 2019, 09:59 AM	#1536
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,047	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Would you believe that OS/2 "development" continues? As much as possible with a user base measured I would guess in the hundreds and no access to the base code as a result of the unresolved feud between IBM and Microsoft. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArcaOS Interesting. Brad Wardell wanted to get IBM to allow him to maintain a consumer version of OS/2 but IBM claimed they couldn't generate a part number. Odd considering how IBM Greenock generated part nos for PCs they built out of whatever was lying around the plant.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

16th November 2019, 01:04 PM	#1537
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,262	Originally Posted by quadraginta It isn't anything I have against any of the IXs or Uxs. I had MINIX running on my first 8088 PC clone, just to see it happen. That was on a two floppy drive system before I could afford a hard drive. All I was pointing out is that for the average user who bitches about the complexities of upgrading their Win OS, the switch to Linux stuff isn't going to be much better for them. For sure. However, novices on Windows systems, if they're not really familiar with computers or who refuse to learn, are just as lost on a Windows system as they would be with KDE or Gnome. Originally Posted by zooterkin Exactly. I've dabbled with Linux for 25 years or so (and UNIX variants for longer). It's only fairly recently that distros have emerged that you could give to a computer novice to use with the same confidence as a Windows release. Linux developers like working on things like the kernel and compilers, they don't seem to like producing a robust graphical interface that a non-expert can use, and a system that doesn't need active management to keep it up-to-date, and without log files filling up, etc. I find KDE to to be very decent. Sometimes I think Gnome would be very useful for novices because it seems to be the epitome of "perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." There's also the adage, "The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned." Log files filling up can be a problem. Fortunately distributions these days usually have well-defined logrotate configurations for their packages. Quote: It was bad enough sometimes supporting Linux-based servers, with users that were supposed to be technically competent, it would have been a nightmare with end users on a Linux desktop. Incompetent users are the bane of all support people, regardless of the operating system they're using. I dare suspect if the entirety of the user interface was one button labelled ON and another OFF, some users would find a way to screw it up. And others would have a fit if the arrangement switched from vertical to horizontal during a update. Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto One of the biggest problems herding Unix programmers is that they all want to modify everything all the time. Trying to get a stable system requires a huge whip. Yeah, Linux programmers as a whole tend to have a bad case of OS/NIH (that is, "Oh, shiny!" and "Not invented here.") One interesting thing about Windows is how much of its core functionality originated with XP and has carried on since. The user interface has changed, at times dramatically. For example, Microsoft is moving away from the Control Panel in favour of Settings.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

18th November 2019, 04:32 AM	#1538
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 94,164	Just helped a local store with a problem with an old Nexus 7 table. They use it for scanning and stock checking. It was seemingly not charging and wouldn't power on. I remembered reading about thisp bug years ago, quick search on Google for a solution literally "nexus 7 won't power on". Second, expanded link had the solution so didn't even need to go to the website itself. Tried it and the Nexus started up. Then she said "can you write that down", I said just type it into Google, 'oh I can never follow that I'm not (Joe have you had your blood pressure tablet and tranquilizer..) a technical person". The solution was literally to press and hold the power and volume down until a menu appears, let go and then press the power button again. Because I am such a nice person I started to write this down... and I kid you not I got "What's the power button?" What is astonishing is that she then got her iphone out, took a picture of what I'd written down, then shared that picture via her WhatsApp group and posted a picture on I assume the store's Instagram of the working tablet....
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

18th November 2019, 05:05 PM	#1539
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Posts: 68,566	Who's got two thumbs and an interview?
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

18th November 2019, 06:41 PM	#1540
Myriad Hyperthetical Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 16,912	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Who's got two thumbs and an interview? Louis the Vampire.
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

18th November 2019, 08:45 PM	#1541
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,047	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Who's got two thumbs and an interview? A yakuza enforcer being debriefed?
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

18th November 2019, 08:57 PM	#1542
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 38,089	Originally Posted by theprestige After how many years, you're still helping end users adjust to OS upgrades? Move on out, man. Move on up. Is that IT people's fault? There's a never-ending supply of OS upgrades. Tell us about what you do if you want to really brag instead of humble-brag.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

19th November 2019, 12:22 AM	#1543
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Who's got two thumbs and an interview? Congratulations! Go get'em.
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

19th November 2019, 07:07 AM	#1544
Armitage72 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 4,716	Originally Posted by Darat Then she said "can you write that down", I said just type it into Google, 'oh I can never follow that I'm not (Joe have you had your blood pressure tablet and tranquilizer..) a technical person". When I gave computer instructions to my mother, she had to write down "hold Ctrl to select multiple things".

19th November 2019, 10:35 AM	#1545
Faydra sinning sybarite Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,988	Customer: Can you make this change right away? Me: Sorry - code freeze for the holidays, come back in January. Customer #2: Really need this change, please Me: Sorry - code freeze for the holidays, come back in January. My Entire Team: Yay, we can finally get stuff DONE!
Faydra sinning sybarite Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,988

21st November 2019, 02:14 PM	#1546
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 57,479	Omfg. Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code." Them: "Sure thing!" They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st November 2019, 02:18 PM	#1547
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 21,360	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Omfg. Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code." Them: "Sure thing!" They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes. I feel so evil for laughing so hard at this.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

21st November 2019, 02:23 PM	#1548
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 47,223	Computing is a text-based medium. Yes, there are some end-users of some applications who just need pictures, but that's not us. It never ceases to amaze and depress me that a software developer will send a screenshot of job logs, instead of copying and pasting the logs.

21st November 2019, 02:39 PM	#1549
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Omfg. Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code." Them: "Sure thing!" They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes. You should have shotguns for that kind of deal.
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

21st November 2019, 02:43 PM	#1550
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 14,305	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I feel so evil for laughing so hard at this. I shared with friends. We all laughed.
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

21st November 2019, 03:09 PM	#1551
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 57,479	Oh, it's even worse than I thought. The original data? Was in an Excel spreadsheet. She scrolled through it, taking screenshots as she went, pasting them into another Excel spreadsheet. It wasn't just one big JPEG like I thought, it's dozens. She carefully lined them up when she pasted them. For neatness.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

21st November 2019, 03:15 PM	#1552
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Southern hemisphere Posts: 7,790	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Omfg. Us: "When you send us the list of ten thousand codes could you please put it in Excel? Then we can just copy/paste into the code." Them: "Sure thing!" They sent an Excel spreadsheet. Inside was a single JPEG screenshot of ten thousand plus codes. Had that done to us once but it was a Word doc. Sent a reply with: (1) message: cannot decode attachment (2) jpeg of page ininstruction booklet for how to do windows text cut-and-paste...as an AVI.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

21st November 2019, 05:06 PM	#1553
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 13,047
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

22nd November 2019, 01:04 AM	#1554
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Oh, it's even worse than I thought. The original data? Was in an Excel spreadsheet. She scrolled through it, taking screenshots as she went, pasting them into another Excel spreadsheet. It wasn't just one big JPEG like I thought, it's dozens. She carefully lined them up when she pasted them. For neatness. Think of all the time she spent on lining them up. People like that should be shot. Or at least educated as to what constitutes usable data transfers.
erlando Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,820	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

22nd November 2019, 02:37 AM	#1555
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 47,124	Originally Posted by Wudang https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/norm_no...ile_format.png I had a few of those in my time. Screenshots in Word documents, so you couldn’t easily resize them to read the tiny text. Data that was a simple text file on the original computer that was cut and pasted into a Word document in sections, losing formatting (tabs, spaces, new lines, etc.) which was important.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20