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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Peter Dutton , Scott Morrison

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Old 14th November 2019, 05:06 PM   #1841
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I suppose "supple" is one way to describe a mind that could believe such a ridiculous theory.
Which theory are you referring to as ridiculous? The idea that ScoMo is conspiring to bring about the Apocalypse? That's not a particularly ridiculous theory. There's an idea called Dominionism which has a certain following in Pentecostal churches and has at its base the idea that Christians must take over government, because the Kingdom of God in Heaven cannot exist until the Kingdom of God on Earth does. Basically, believers in Pentecostal Dominionism seek high office in government and corporations in order to control the world so that God can make it end.

I do not know if ScoMo is a Dominionist, but it wouldn't be at all surprising if he were.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:25 PM   #1842
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I do not know if ScoMo is a Dominionist, but it wouldn't be at all surprising if he were.
I don't understand this desire to make up bad things about ScoMo. It just makes it appear that he isn't all that bad so we have to invent stuff.

And he IS all that bad. He is a climate change denier, he sucks up to mega-rich corporations and his desire to implement repressive technologies such as facial recognition of the public suggests that he thinks that Australia is a communist dictatorship.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:29 PM   #1843
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand this desire to make up bad things about ScoMo. It just makes it appear that he isn't all that bad so we have to invent stuff.
I'm not making stuff up. I'm saying that Dominionism is known to have followers in Pentecostal churches such as the one ScoMo attends, and given what ScoMo is and what he has done in the past, it would not be at all surprising if he were one of them. I'm not saying that he definitely is - I don't know whether he is or not. But it would not surprise me if he were.

ETA: it seems to me that the facial recognition thing is all Dutton. ScoMo just fails to see the potential problems with it.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:45 PM   #1844
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't know whether he is or not. But it would not surprise me if he were.
So you already said.

By the same token you could also speculate that ScoMo is one of the world leaders who has taken bribes from Donald Trump. Ultimately, these speculations are counter productive.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:50 PM   #1845
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you already said.

By the same token you could also speculate that ScoMo is one of the world leaders who has taken bribes from Donald Trump. Ultimately, these speculations are counter productive.
I could, but I think it would surprise me a little bit if that speculation turned out to be true. I don't think it's counter productive to speculate whether ScoMo is a dominionist. I think it would be quite significant if he were, as it would have implications for what he wants to achieve as Prime Minister.

Like I don't think it is counter productive to speculate whether he is a believer in the Prosperity Gospel either, since that also has implications for his intent and purpose. I am pretty certain that he is, by the way. Viewing poverty as a moral failing rather than a societal one explains a lot about the government's demonstrated priorities.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:54 PM   #1846
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Generate sympathy for ScoMo if you wish but I still prefer to believe that he is an **** hole.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:56 PM   #1847
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Generate sympathy for ScoMo if you wish but I still prefer to believe that he is an **** hole.
What? I'm not generating sympathy for him. What makes you think I'm generating sympathy for him? I'm calling him an **** hole in more detail.
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:59 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What? I'm not generating sympathy for him. What makes you think I'm generating sympathy for him? I'm calling him an **** hole in more detail.
No you're not. you are making up ******** because you don't think he is bad enough already.
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:06 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No you're not. you are making up ******** because you don't think he is bad enough already.
What is it that you think I'm making up? Dominionism? That's a real thing. The fact that some Pentecostals are dominionists? That's a real thing too. The fact that ScoMo is a Pentecostal? That's also a real thing. What exactly is it that I'm making up here? Remember, I'm not saying that I know that ScoMo is a dominionist. I don't. He might not be. Not all Pentecostals are Dominionist.

So please enlighten me. Exactly what is it that you think I'm making up?
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:26 PM   #1850
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So please enlighten me. Exactly what is it that you think I'm making up?
Everything about ScoMo's religious motivation is made up speculation. There is zero evidence to suggest that he is anything other than what he appears to be - a blue rinse elitist.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:29 PM   #1851
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Everything about ScoMo's religious motivation is made up speculation. There is zero evidence to suggest that he is anything other than what he appears to be - a blue rinse elitist.
You know what he appears to me to be? A religious Pentecostalist who is incapable of separating his faith from his office.

You describe the elephant based on its leg, I'll describe it based on its trunk. Neither of us are wrong.
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:07 PM   #1852
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know what he appears to me to be? A religious Pentecostalist who is incapable of separating his faith from his office.
That is only because you have been told that he is a Pentecostalist.

Had you not known this already then there is nothing in his actions that would identify him as such nor distinguish himself from other right wing Liberals - past or present.
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:39 PM   #1853
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is only because you have been told that he is a Pentecostalist.

Had you not known this already then there is nothing in his actions that would identify him as such nor distinguish himself from other right wing Liberals - past or present.
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Old 15th November 2019, 01:05 PM   #1854
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Yes I remember that snap arth. Always sends a shiver up my spine and I am not re-assured by psion's talk of "blue rinse elitist". Scomo is open about his belief in Pentecostal woo and even invited someone to take that photo. It's inconceivable that he wouldn't let his actions be swayed by the faith he is so committed to and open about.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:45 PM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I remember that snap arth. Always sends a shiver up my spine and I am not re-assured by psion's talk of "blue rinse elitist". Scomo is open about his belief in Pentecostal woo and even invited someone to take that photo. It's inconceivable that he wouldn't let his actions be swayed by the faith he is so committed to and open about.
If he wanted to keep politics and his religion separate then he would not have allowed that photo to be taken. Now the main difference between how countries like Iran and Australia are governed is that he is the only one in Government with that particular brand of religion. Others have slightly different brands.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:56 PM   #1856
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That picture illustrates my point. There is nothing he has said or done as a politician (other than the silly coal incident) that especially distinguishes him from other Liberal politicians. So you need to dig up external information in an attempt to make your theory seem more plausible.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am not re-assured by psion's talk of "blue rinse elitist".
Of course not! "Dominionist" sounds much worse so you are going to stick to that fairy tale theory not matter what.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:47 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is only because you have been told that he is a Pentecostalist.

Had you not known this already then there is nothing in his actions that would identify him as such nor distinguish himself from other right wing Liberals - past or present.
Maybe not actions (yet) but words.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ht-with-danger

Quote:
In his maiden speech in 2007 Morrison put his Christian cards squarely on the table. He invoked Abraham Lincoln: “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side.”
You may see nothing wrong with this, but I bloody do.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:09 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Maybe not actions (yet) but words.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ht-with-danger

You may see nothing wrong with this, but I bloody do.
Unless God is directing his pro-rich agenda, these words are meaningless (politically). And it still doesn't mean that he is willfully working to bring on the apocalypse.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:28 AM   #1859
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Unless God is directing his pro-rich agenda, these words are meaningless (politically). And it still doesn't mean that he is willfully working to bring on the apocalypse.
Yeah, yeah, you’ve said this repeatedly.

I haven’t said he’d bring on the apocalypse. And I don’t think others have said either. But I believe he thinks God will fix up our problems and we needn’t bother about climate change. My evidence is his unwillingness to do anything meaningful about climate and his love of coal. Do you dispute this?
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:37 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
My evidence is his unwillingness to do anything meaningful about climate and his love of coal. Do you dispute this?
Of course I do. That is NOT evidence of some hidden religious agenda. Non-Christian Liberals have exactly the same policies.

I can't believe that you would rather make up a conspiracy theory instead of dealing with what is right in front of your eyes - especially when it already makes ScoMo look terrible.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:29 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yeah, yeah, you’ve said this repeatedly.

I haven’t said he’d bring on the apocalypse. And I don’t think others have said either. But I believe he thinks God will fix up our problems and we needn’t bother about climate change. My evidence is his unwillingness to do anything meaningful about climate and his love of coal. Do you dispute this?

I have made the comment about many Christians being delighted about being in end times now. I heard them many times on Vision Radio and their delight was overwhelming. It wouldn't be out of the question to suggest Scomo had this mindset also.

Psion is determined that religious motivation is just not on the table at all. Just won't give it any air time at all it seems. Funny that ..... one has to wonder why?
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Old 17th November 2019, 03:04 PM   #1862
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have made the comment about many Christians being delighted about being in end times now. I heard them many times on Vision Radio and their delight was overwhelming. It wouldn't be out of the question to suggest Scomo had this mindset also.
It would be "out of the question". Things like these need evidence and not some "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" CT fallacy.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Psion is determined that religious motivation is just not on the table at all. Just won't give it any air time at all it seems. Funny that ..... one has to wonder why?
Because, unlike the rest of you, I prefer to deal with facts and not invent some conspiracy theory to justify my hatred of religion.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:13 PM   #1863
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It would be "out of the question". Things like these need evidence and not some "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" CT fallacy.


Because, unlike the rest of you, I prefer to deal with facts and not invent some conspiracy theory to justify my hatred of religion.

We we are most impressed by your command of Latin but you seem to be somewhat over zealous in your avoidance of "cum hoc ergo propter hoc". If a common factor is overwhelmingly present, then it should not be pushed to one side in your steadfast adherence to the principle.

So now it's a conspiracy theory is it? And you have gleaned from the scribblings of fellow posters a universal hatred of religion. How do you meld this with your strict adherence to dealing with facts alone?
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Old 18th November 2019, 04:27 PM   #1864
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Old 18th November 2019, 07:19 PM   #1865
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course I do. That is NOT evidence of some hidden religious agenda. Non-Christian Liberals have exactly the same policies.
There are non-Christian Liberals?
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Old 18th November 2019, 07:30 PM   #1866
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Let me reiterate the argument.
  1. Dominionism exists
  2. People who attend Pentecostal churches are sometimes Dominionists
  3. Scott Morrison attends a Pentecostal church.

Therefore it is possible that Scott Morrison is a Dominionist.

Is there any fault with my logic here?
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:43 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are non-Christian Liberals?
Sure. Not all of them identify themselves as such (hypocrisy and all that). But I think you knew that this is a silly question.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let me reiterate the argument.
  1. Dominionism exists
  2. People who attend Pentecostal churches are sometimes Dominionists
  3. Scott Morrison attends a Pentecostal church.

Therefore it is possible that Scott Morrison is a Dominionist.

Is there any fault with my logic here?
All you have proven is that Scott Morrison could be something.
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:40 PM   #1868
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Sure. Not all of them identify themselves as such (hypocrisy and all that). But I think you knew that this is a silly question.
Of course it's a silly question. The claim that there are non-Christian Liberals is a silly claim.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
All you have proven is that Scott Morrison could be something.
Please show me where I claimed that I had done anything else.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:04 PM   #1869
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The claim that there are non-Christian Liberals is a silly claim.


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Please show me where I claimed that I had done anything else.
You expect the claim to be taken seriously.

Some men are rapists. Should we seriously be worried that ScoMo might be a rapist?
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:08 PM   #1870
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You expect the claim to be taken seriously.
Yes, because if true, it could be a serious problem with his ability to govern effectively.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Some men are rapists. Should we seriously be worried that ScoMo might be a rapist?
I haven't said that "some men" are Dominionists. I've said that some people who attend Pentecostalist churches, which is a far smaller pool of people, are Dominionists. Furthermore, Dominionism is not a crime.

Your analogy is invalid.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:03 PM   #1871
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, because if true, it could be a serious problem with his ability to govern effectively.

I haven't said that "some men" are Dominionists. I've said that some people who attend Pentecostalist churches, which is a far smaller pool of people, are Dominionists. Furthermore, Dominionism is not a crime.

Your analogy is invalid.
So the highlighted is what makes all of the difference to you?

Let's try this then: Some politicians take bribes. Maybe we should be concerned that ScoMo is taking bribes "because if true, it could be a serious problem with his ability to govern effectively".

It fits your criteria down to a tee including small sample size, lack of evidence and a complete lack of any statistical data.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:12 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So the highlighted is what makes all of the difference to you?
No, because I'm not talking about rape, or bribery, or anything else other than religion. And I don't appreciate the gotcha games that you're playing. I've been perfectly clear.
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Old 19th November 2019, 12:26 AM   #1873
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, because I'm not talking about rape, or bribery, or anything else other than religion.
Ah, special pleading. When it comes to religion, anything goes.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And I don't appreciate the gotcha games that you're playing. I've been perfectly clear.
Hard cheese. If you are going to defend uncritical thinking then you have to expect some flak.
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Old 19th November 2019, 12:49 AM   #1874
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Ah, special pleading. When it comes to religion, anything goes.
Gotcha! Yeah, you won another round! Feel good yet?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Hard cheese. If you are going to defend uncritical thinking then you have to expect some flak.
Gotcha again! Wow, you're good.
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Old 19th November 2019, 01:06 AM   #1875
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Gotcha! Yeah, you won another round! Feel good yet?

Gotcha again! Wow, you're good.
Stop setting yourself up. You don't have an argument.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:50 PM   #1876
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I'll post this relevant quote from a Guardian article, published today.

Why Scott Morrison is so determined to suck up to Donald Trump: faith, loyalty, sacrifice

Quote:
One last possible explanation comes down to the temperament, personality, and particular political character of Scott Morrison.

If Tony Abbott’s politics had the flavour of a European reactionary — throne, knighthoods, and altar — and Malcolm Turnbull was a cosmopolitan neoliberal, Scott Morrison may be the closest thing we have seen to a member of the all-American Christian right in the Lodge.

His enthusiastic, long-term membership in a suburban Pentecostal megachurch sets him apart from previous examples of the ways in which religion has inflected Australian politics. Unlike every prime minister (outside a few notable atheists), Morrison is neither a Catholic nor a mainline Protestant. His faith was made in America.

His religious beliefs are fair game in this context because – as Morrison himself revealed – one of the visits he made in the US was to a similar Pentecostal church in Washington DC, run by an entrepreneurial, smart-casual pastor, Mark Batterson.

Megachurch Pentecostalism offers a particular mirror on its country of origin. Long on personal inspiration and short on doctrine and history, each church in the loosely affiliated Assemblies of God network is often only as old as the building that houses it.

Pentecostalism emphasises direct experience, personal transformation, biblical inerrancy, and the moment-to-moment possibility of premillennial rapture, when faithful believers will ascend into heaven while the earth descends into tribulation.

Megachurches are not confined to Pentecostalism but they are often under the even broader umbrella of American evangelicalism: 2000+ congregations happen across a range of denominations, but mostly in those that believe in biblical inerrancy, and the need to be born again. On the whole these churches are characteristic not so much of America as a whole but of its provinces, suburbs, mid-size cities: the sprawl.

And evangelicals are the segment of society which was most crucial in delivering the presidency to Trump. Almost all white evangelicals voted for him, and on their own composed 25% of his electorate. They voted for him not so much because of his intrinsic appeal but because they considered his opponent to be an existential threat to their way of life.

As with many other conservatives who had misgivings about a vulgar, adulterous, mendacious and acquisitive candidate, being anti-anti-Trump – hating the president’s liberal critics – has put them more and more in his corner.

In a movement that perennially sees itself as besieged by secular modernity, Trump has become their unlikely paladin.

This is Scott Morrison’s faith community. This, perhaps, is his tribe. If he feels an affinity for the president, this may be its source: faith, loyalty, and sacrifice.
This is my argument. Religion affects Morrison's politics. It can't not. According to Pentecostalism - and remember that I have personal lived experience as a member of a Pentecostal church, the Australian Assemblies of God, albeit before it was wrapped up into Hillsong - God can, does and should affect every aspect of your life. Every thing you do - every act you take - that is not an active act of worship of God is an active act of worship of Satan. God infuses your entire being and everything you do - everything you do is for the purpose of God's glory.

Morrison didn't become Prime Minister to lead people. He became Prime Minister to glorify God. Because that's what Pentecostals do. That's what Pentecostal churches teach. Glorify God with your every breath.

If you don't believe that I am speaking from my direct lived experience of Pentecostalism, then you are in active denial and we have nothing more to discuss.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:00 PM   #1877
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Morrison didn't become Prime Minister to lead people. He became Prime Minister to glorify God. Because that's what Pentecostals do. That's what Pentecostal churches teach. Glorify God with your every breath.
You should have stopped at quoting the link. You still haven't established that he is a "Dominionist" nor that he is actively working to bring on the apocalypse.

If his right wing attack-the-poor policies are what he calls "glorifying God" then this is just meaningless rhetoric and his religious beliefs make him no more dangerous than any other right wing politician.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:10 PM   #1878
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You should have stopped at quoting the link. You still haven't established that he is a "Dominionist" nor that he is actively working to bring on the apocalypse.
Yet again, I never claimed to establish it. I said it would not surprise me if he were. Stop attacking me for something I never did.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If his right wing attack-the-poor policies are what he calls "glorifying God" then this is just meaningless rhetoric and his religious beliefs make him no more dangerous than any other right wing politician.
No, Pentecostalism is different from other mainstream religions like Catholicism and Anglicanism (which the vast majority, if not all, of Liberal Party MPs are) for all the reasons that I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to get you to understand.

You know what? I don't care. You're a lost cause and I'm tired of beating my head against your brick wall. Think what you like. I'm done.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:10 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yet again, I never claimed to establish it. I said it would not surprise me if he were. Stop attacking me for something I never did.
You're not fooling anybody. Your last 15 posts have been dedicated to trying to convince me that since ScoMo is a Pentacostalist, he is more dangerous than any other politician.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, Pentecostalism is different from other mainstream religions like Catholicism and Anglicanism (which the vast majority, if not all, of Liberal Party MPs are) for all the reasons that I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to get you to understand.
Case in point.

And it doesn't rebut my position that ScoMo doesn't act like a Pentacostalist or, at least his policies don't appear to be anything like what you think a Pentacostalist's policies would be.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know what? I don't care. You're a lost cause and I'm tired of beating my head against your brick wall. Think what you like. I'm done.
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Old 19th November 2019, 08:14 PM   #1880
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You two seem to be pushing the same button on each other every time, expecting something different to happen if you do it just one more time...
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