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Old 14th November 2019, 05:54 AM   #201
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And just for good measure, in case there's any shred of remaining skepticism that this guy in particular was a racist, pages 11-13 of the PDF file report an officer who interviewed first the female half of the couple by phone and then in person the male and she admitted that he is in fact a racist and had made racist comments in the past at that restaurant in the presence of employees and later he admitted much the same thing as well as admitting that he had fashioned a noose out of paper straw wrappers.
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:02 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The sentence isn't at all clear. In particular, assuming the primary definition of the word "protagonist" would imply that bluesjnr believes the event at the restaurant is fiction. Are you sure that bluesjnr believes the racist event didn't happen at all and was made up?
No, since the word does not necessarily imply a fictional setting. Certainly in the UK it's not uncommon in describing two sides of a real life dispute, especially political.

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Old 14th November 2019, 06:49 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, since the word does not necessarily imply a fictional setting. Certainly in the UK it's not uncommon in describing two sides of a real life dispute, especially political.
Thank you.
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Old 14th November 2019, 07:13 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I can't make a decision whether racism exists in 2019 until I hear from the guy with the swastika tattoo who would send food back if it were delivered by a non-white waiter.

Edit: Reading the hand-written testimonies of the waiters is difficult, especially with the redactions, but it's pretty gratifying. Seems that the staff, especially the one waiter that was on her last day, decided they were out of patience with these regulars who were known racists and generally difficult to please customers and put them on blast in a very spectacular fashion.

If the written reports of the staff are to be believed, the waiters were largely responsible for forcing the issue by informing the party of 18 that they were sitting near racists and offering to move the table of 18 elsewhere, which they found objectionable.

I am inclined to believe these two racist customers did not intend to cause a big confrontation, but am still pretty happy that the staff loudly and explicitly blew their cover.

Sucks to suck, try not to get banned from applebees.
^ This seems to be a fair assessment of the situation.

If I might add, the servers, along with food and drink, served up a **** storm to teach the self identified racists a lesson, even though it seems from the report that they were not indulging in any racist behaviour towards the group.

That the servers threw the 18 strong party under the bus to drive home their agenda seems to have passed without comment.

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Old 14th November 2019, 08:08 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
And just for good measure, in case there's any shred of remaining skepticism that this guy in particular was a racist, pages 11-13 of the PDF file report an officer who interviewed first the female half of the couple by phone and then in person the male and she admitted that he is in fact a racist and had made racist comments in the past at that restaurant in the presence of employees and later he admitted much the same thing as well as admitting that he had fashioned a noose out of paper straw wrappers.
Good catch on the police report!

Regarding this, can we show a single post where any doubt was cast regarding whether tattoo boy was a racist? Even one? That's been the problem here since the OP, as it is on many of these #LWB threads: no one is even suggesting that. It's a straw argument randomly thrown in at irregular intervals. The issue has been: What happened, from both sides of the story? Some call that skepticism. I dunno.

For those who don't want to wade through the police report, a couple more highlights:

The waitress, in her own words, says that she will 'take the write-up' since she was quitting and it was her last day, and that she laughingly says she started a tornado on her way out.

It seems, as I proposed earlier, that the staff was acting independently, not on racist requests. They threw that in and offered it up based on their experiences with swastika boy. They consciously decided to provoke a racial incident on their own. Involving a table full of children.

Now, this seems to be because they didn't like the racists either. But I ask the forum: was this a good idea? Independently pulling the table full of kids out celebrating into their white knight fantasy?

The racist couple didn't say anything to or about the claimants, or ask them to be moved. {ETA: they did ask that the large party be not placed next to them, as the place was almost empty}. You know who did say something racist? One of the claimants, who said loud enough to be heard at the next table "I'm gonna shoot that racist {n-word}". An unprovoked death threat from the claimants. Charming.

The wait staff also mentioned that they read the fb post and it had numerous factual untruths. So much for our "conclusive proofs" and "preponderance of the evidence". The evidence wasn't in when posters made these claims. It is now.

As the OP said, these stories just keep on coming.

eta: and that disputed screenshot convo seems to have been accurate, even knowing it was the server's last day, although the tat under his shirt was reported as a confederate flag instead of a swastika.
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:41 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

eta: and that disputed screenshot convo seems to have been accurate, even knowing it was the server's last day, although the tat under his shirt was reported as a confederate flag instead of a swastika.
How so? The text convo gets small details wrong, like the table being a 2 top rather than 4 top, and the tattoo being wrong. It's also gets the broader point incorrect. It states that the squabble began when the party of 18 noticed the racist tattoo. Nothing in the police report indicates that the tattoo was visible, seen, or complained about by the customers nor provoked any reaction. There is no indication that any of the party of 18 was aware of any tattoo at all.

The conflict began when the staff informed the party of 18 that they were seated by racists, which the text is quite clearly wrong about. The disputed screenshot seems to be significantly inaccurate on pretty much everything it claims, both in specific details in the general narrative it purports.

Regarding your wider point about why the staff would go out of their way to cause a scene. I'm going to speculate that they were generally frustrated with a regular who was a known racist and generally difficult customer. They likely felt, rightly or wrongly, that management would not take care of this problem satisfactorily if they reported up the command chain, so they engaged in a bit of insubordination by deliberately stirring the pot. Seems to have worked, perhaps better than they anticipated.
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Old 14th November 2019, 08:47 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How so? The text convo gets small details wrong, like the table being a 2 top rather than 4 top, and the tattoo being wrong. It's also gets the broader point incorrect. It states that the squabble began when the party of 18 noticed the racist tattoo. Nothing in the police report indicates that the tattoo was visible, seen, or complained about by the customers nor provoked any reaction. There is no indication that any of the party of 18 was aware of any tattoo at all.

The conflict began when the staff informed the party of 18 that they were seated by racists, which the text is quite clearly wrong about.

The disputed screenshot seems to be significantly inaccurate on pretty much everything it claims.
Yeah, you're right. Just reread the screenshot, and details are wrong. Knowing about it being the servers last day made me think this was another worker there who was not directly involved. Damn good guess if from out of the blue.

eta: your edit: they involved a table full of celebrating children in deliberately provoking a racial incident. No, this was not okay. Nor was a claimant making the death threat at someone who they only heard was racist (hearsay, anyone?)
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:22 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
And just for good measure, in case there's any shred of remaining skepticism that this guy in particular was a racist, pages 11-13 of the PDF file report an officer who interviewed first the female half of the couple by phone and then in person the male and she admitted that he is in fact a racist and had made racist comments in the past at that restaurant in the presence of employees and later he admitted much the same thing as well as admitting that he had fashioned a noose out of paper straw wrappers.
But nooses aren't racist; most hanged criminals were men in Victorian England or cowboys in the old West. <<<this is sarcasm

I'm wondering about the "confederate tattoo" - like, does that arm lose its first arm wrestling match (while there are spectators with picnic lunches) and then get overconfident and lose the rest of the matches until the other arms march over it and set his watch on fire, just to watch it burn?

I think that the only way we are going to get real stigma communicated to idiots with confederate flags / tattoos / stickers on their trucks is by reminding them that it's the flag of a loser.
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Old 14th November 2019, 10:36 AM   #209
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So the staff were the instigators of this whole thing. Of course, the sports group had no way of knowing that - from their perspective, they had been the targets of racism.

It seems that the whole "its all just fake" theme that some here have been, if not outright pushing, then at least implying, has now been shown to be complete bunkum. Well colour me surprised!.

Now comes the back-pedalling and the "I never said thats" and the goal-post moving as people strain to be on the right side of the facts.

Just another day at ISF
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Old 14th November 2019, 11:25 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So the staff were the instigators of this whole thing. Of course, the sports group had no way of knowing that - from their perspective, they had been the targets of racism.

It seems that the whole "its all just fake" theme that some here have been, if not outright pushing, then at least implying, has now been shown to be complete bunkum. Well colour me surprised!.

Now comes the back-pedalling and the "I never said thats" and the goal-post moving as people strain to be on the right side of the facts.

Just another day at ISF
A bit harsh given that it was “fake”, in as much as it was a situation manufactured by the staff taking advantage of the known opinions of unpopular regulars.
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Old 14th November 2019, 11:27 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So the staff were the instigators of this whole thing. Of course, the sports group had no way of knowing that - from their perspective, they had been the targets of racism.

It seems that the whole "its all just fake" theme that some here have been, if not outright pushing, then at least implying, has now been shown to be complete bunkum. Well colour me surprised!.

Now comes the back-pedalling and the "I never said thats" and the goal-post moving as people strain to be on the right side of the facts.

Just another day at ISF
The racist customer never specifically said he'd withhold aid unless the staff investigated Biden!!
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Old 14th November 2019, 11:37 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
A bit harsh given that it was “fake”, in as much as it was a situation manufactured by the staff taking advantage of the known opinions of unpopular regulars.


Facts matter!

The implication is, and always was, that the parents of the sports team made it up and lied about it all.

Turns out that was BS - do you agree (yes or no)?

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The racist customer never specifically said he'd withhold aid unless the staff investigated Biden!!
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Old 14th November 2019, 12:09 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No need for this. Sometimes, due to more detail, things change. Sometimes even the playing field!

Quote:
Facts matter!

The implication is, and always was, that the parents of the sports team made it up and lied about it all.

Turns out that was BS - do you agree (yes or no)?
Well, largely, yes. They were manipulated is my point more than anything else.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:28 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now, this seems to be because they didn't like the racists either. But I ask the forum: was this a good idea? Independently pulling the table full of kids out celebrating into their white knight fantasy?
Maybe, maybe not. Life's pretty messy after all. I think you're being a little harsh in your characterization with "...their white knight fantasy" as well. I'm absolutely certain that the issue with the racist regular had come up previously and corporate (or whoever's desk that the buck stopped at) basically told them to do everything they could to downplay it. Ignore it. Don't make waves and keep your head down and keep on keeping on (as one of my nurse friends (and secret crush) of mine used to say). So... they got sick of the corporate bull **** and finally took the only action they probably felt they could do.

I empathize fully. Plus, they seemed to be very willing to take the heat too. So I say, 'good on ya' to them. We very much need more of this sort of thing, 'cause... nothing else really seems to work. TBH, though, this probably won't "work" either, either in the short term or long. But they at least had the guts to take a stand sometime, no matter how people think it was wrong, and stupid (tons of people here on ISF hurl that around at the drop of a hat), and foolish, and detrimental... and... and... The peacocking and concern trolling train just get's a'rollin and never stops, it seems.



Quote:
You know who did say something racist? One of the claimants, who said loud enough to be heard at the next table "I'm gonna shoot that racist {n-word}". An unprovoked death threat from the claimants. Charming.
"Nuh huh! YOU'RE the REAL racist!!"

But hey. So what? So what if a guy did say that in reference to the "racist regular"? If it's even true, but, again, the world ain't perfect. We can't always choose our champions or our heroes or our leaders or... lessee.. what does this remind me of...? Oh, yeah, like in a court case -- some of the most helpful precedent (for society) is often set by criminals or real scumbags; sometimes (rarely) the dregs of society can make a valuable contribution. And before anyone jumps on my phrasing here, I'm not saying we, or (g)you should hold this person up as a hero or whatever. I really hope I shouldn't have to spell it out like this, but I will anyway.



Quote:
The wait staff also mentioned that they read the fb post and it had numerous factual untruths. So much for our "conclusive proofs" and "preponderance of the evidence". The evidence wasn't in when posters made these claims. It is now.
I think this "conclusive proofs" statement of yours is also a strawman. Your very own! I haven't read anyone here saying anything close to that. But if anyone wishes to provide a post in rebuttal, I have no problem saying I'm wrong.

As to the preponderance of evidence, I'm not sure why you're... or I should say, you're coming across to me as if it has been a bad thing? that people have been making tentative conclusions on what evidence has been provided up until then. It's not wrong to have... oh... I dunno.... let's say three pieces of evidence and me, for example, concluding x,y,z. Later, if another two pieces of evidence surface, I can remain with my initial conclusion or draw another. I kinda thought that's how this skeptical thing works.


Quote:
As the OP said, these stories just keep on coming.
Sure, and I'll keep merrily along, making my conclusions based on what comes up and I hope others do as well; and it's quite all right to change one's mind too.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:05 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
... So... they got sick of the corporate bull **** and finally took the only action they probably felt they could do.
I would venture that there were multiple actions they could take to express their distaste. They chose to provoke a racist confrontation. One that was at the expense of children who were likely looking forward to a good time celebration. Can you not conceive of other ways they might have made their point? A dozen better ways, off the top of your head in like thirty seconds? Betcha can.

Quote:
...Plus, they seemed to be very willing to take the heat too.
Negative. The waitress was on her last day before quitting, so she said she would take the write up cuz she was out of there. The host quit. The managers made up stories to cover their asses, not making a stand at all (and were fired). So no...not one player willingly taking any consequential heat.

Quote:
So I say, 'good on ya' to them. We very much need more of this sort of thing, 'cause... nothing else really seems to work. TBH, though, this probably won't "work" either, either in the short term or long. But they at least had the guts to take a stand sometime, no matter how people think it was wrong, and stupid (tons of people here on ISF hurl that around at the drop of a hat), and foolish, and detrimental... and... and... The peacocking and concern trolling train just get's a'rollin and never stops, it seems.
Amen to this. We do need people taking stands. I wouldn't call this 'taking a stand' so much as lobbing a Moltov and scurrying away, tho.

Quote:
"Nuh huh! YOU'RE the REAL racist!!"
Seriously, dude? A claimant threatened to kill the guy, because the 'waitress said' he was racist...do I really have to argue this point?

Quote:
But hey. So what? So what if a guy did say that in reference to the "racist regular"?
I'm sorry...are you dismissing a man making an unprovoked violent threat, because he was a wannabe Rosa Parks? That is not acceptable behavior in front of a table of kids. Or not in front of a table of kids. Or anywhere.

Quote:
I think this "conclusive proofs" statement of yours is also a strawman. Your very own! I haven't read anyone here saying anything close to that. But if anyone wishes to provide a post in rebuttal, I have no problem saying I'm wrong.
As you wish. From page two:

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That's pretty conclusive, and answers the question as to why they were asked their race.

Those who reckon they were smelling a BS story here need to have their olfactory apparatus tested. What they were smelling was the vile stench of racism.
We can bicker about whether this poster used the word 'proofs', as if anything else would have made sense, but you get the gist. Is that close? I think that's close.

Quote:
As to the preponderance of evidence, I'm not sure why you're... or I should say, you're coming across to me as if it has been a bad thing?
Simply because there was no preponderance of anything at that time. Just the opening volley from one side of the story (and a generic corporate damage control apology).

Quote:
Sure, and I'll keep merrily along, making my conclusions based on what comes up and I hope others do as well; and it's quite all right to change one's mind too.
And I'll hold off making conclusions till I have ample evidence to do so. Then, of course, I am also happy to modify them as new evidence arises.

But you hit the nail on the head, here, the more I think about it. There was not enough information for me to come to any sort of conclusions till page 5. Something like 90% of posters here had all the evidence they needed for a slam dunk conclusion in the OP. And were dead wrong. That really does say it all.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:40 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Simply because there was no preponderance of anything at that time. Just the opening volley from one side of the story
Oh puhlease! What a compete load of utter garbage!

This incident happened on October 26

The video in the OP was uploaded on November 4

The OP didn't start the thread until November 11

By the time I posted this post you quoted later on November 11

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That's pretty conclusive, and answers the question as to why they were asked their race.

Those who reckon they were smelling a BS story here need to have their olfactory apparatus tested. What they were smelling was the vile stench of racism.
....SIXTEEN DAYS HAD ELAPSED!!!!

- BWW had already admitted culpability and apologised.

- The racist customer had already been banned.

In sixteen days, no-one in any position to know, had come forward to claim that it didn't happen.

No-one!
Nada!
Zippo!
Zilch!

My post was a reasonable and fair one given that all of the available evidence supported the assertion that this did in fact happen, and there was not one single piece of evidence that it did not.
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Old 15th November 2019, 05:13 AM   #217
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Somebody made threats in a bar and never followed through on them. Someone call the media.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:08 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh puhlease! What a compete load of utter garbage!...In sixteen days, no-one in any position to know, had come forward to claim that it didn't happen.
Who cares? If sixteen YEARS had passed, there was still not enough information to draw a conclusion. The actual actors who could have refuted the story have run away. The predictable corporate PR apology shed no light on the actual events for skeptical evaluation.The position that any self-proclaimed skeptic should have would be 'not enough to make a call on this one'.

You jumped to conclusions. You were wrong. How many pages are you now going to spend still trying to point the finger at others?
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:14 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Somebody made threats in a bar and never followed through on them. Someone call the media.
You're trying to frame this like they were a couple of rowdy drunks at a bar, now?

It was a ******* restaurant. And your hero threatened to shoot a man (who said said nothing) in front of a table of kids. Is this really the narrative you you are going to endorse?

Doesn't matter really. The thread will die quickly now, because the OP narrative was popped, and now white people on the forum can't tut-tut the other white people on the forum...who were being skeptical.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:22 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're trying to frame this like they were a couple of rowdy drunks at a bar, now?

It was a ******* restaurant. And your hero threatened to shoot a man (who said said nothing) in front of a table of kids. Is this really the narrative you you are going to endorse?

Doesn't matter really. The thread will die quickly now, because the OP narrative was popped, and now white people on the forum can't tut-tut the other white people on the forum...who were being skeptical.
oh the humanity, someone got pissed off and ran their mouth. Maybe this guy should have remained a little more calm, but he was thrust in a situation not of his own making.

I don't really see how the narrative was popped at all. The restaurant was creating a welcoming environment for a nazi-tatted racist. When this became known to a group of black diners, the solution offered wasn't to boot the racist, but to move their tables. BWW deserves every bit of flack they are getting from this incident.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:00 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
oh the humanity, someone got pissed off and ran their mouth. Maybe this guy should have remained a little more calm, but he was thrust in a situation not of his own making.
Making public death threats in front of children is a tad more than 'running his mouth'. You can see just how badly this could easily have turned, right? For all the condemnation BWW is getting for this, death-threat guy seems to be treated with kid gloves. Should BWW ban a customer who does so? I would think so, and ban him before the racist who is not making public death threats. But here we are.

Quote:
I don't really see how the narrative was popped at all. The restaurant was creating a welcoming environment for a nazi-tatted racist. When this became known to a group of black diners, the solution offered wasn't to boot the racist, but to move their tables. BWW deserves every bit of flack they are getting from this incident.
Oh yeah. I'm sure that selectively banning customers wouldn't bankrupt BWW in civil rights litigation in short order.

I don't think BWW was actively doing anything. As I've said from the beginning, this seems to be the actions of a few specific individuals. Who are utterly let off the hook in the narrative, btw. I am (I think) the only poster demanding that the employees be called to the carpet. I can't for the life of me imagine why posters here so blithely let them off the hook.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:12 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
oh the humanity, someone got pissed off and ran their mouth. Maybe this guy should have remained a little more calm, but he was thrust in a situation not of his own making.

I don't really see how the narrative was popped at all. The restaurant was creating a welcoming environment for a nazi-tatted racist. When this became known to a group of black diners, the solution offered wasn't to boot the racist, but to move their tables. BWW deserves every bit of flack they are getting from this incident.
Certainly, BWW should refuse service to racists.
And Bakers should most definitely not be required to make wedding cakes for just anyone who orders one.

The fault here seems to lie with the staff who decided to manufacture a confrontation. Not BWW.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:12 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh yeah. I'm sure that selectively banning customers wouldn't bankrupt BWW in civil rights litigation in short order.

I don't think BWW was actively doing anything. As I've said from the beginning, this seems to be the actions of a few specific individuals. Who are utterly let off the hook in the narrative, btw. I am (I think) the only poster demanding that the employees be called to the carpet. I can't for the life of me imagine why posters here so blithely let them off the hook.
I, personally, feel the ends justified the means. I thought this story was rude, racist, and needed attention, but not a crisis that can't be recovered from. The family went and ate, sounds like they enjoyed themselves, at another restaurant. The kids, while having some questions, didn't seem too scarred. The employees wanted to put an end to some racist dick being in their restaurant and were willing to give up their jobs to do it. BWW got the appropriate flack for allowing racist people in their restaurant without any issue, and the guy got banned. Where is the downside here? Are we doing the "won't someone think of the children" thing?

As far as the the civil rights thing, I'm pretty sure "racist douche" isn't a protected class. BWW has the right to refuse service to anyone as long as it's not because of one of the protected reasons.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:14 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The fault here seems to lie with the staff who decided to manufacture a confrontation. Not BWW.
This thread has examples from the staff of a few situations that they've had to deal with because of this man. Rumors of food being sent back if delivered by black people, and overall racist treatment. BWW, through their management, condoned this behavior. A company is their staff.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:28 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I, personally, feel the ends justified the means. I thought this story was rude, racist, and needed attention, but not a crisis that can't be recovered from. The family went and ate, sounds like they enjoyed themselves, at another restaurant. The kids, while having some questions, didn't seem too scarred. The employees wanted to put an end to some racist dick being in their restaurant and were willing to give up their jobs to do it. BWW got the appropriate flack for allowing racist people in their restaurant without any issue, and the guy got banned. Where is the downside here? Are we doing the "won't someone think of the children" thing?

As far as the the civil rights thing, I'm pretty sure "racist douche" isn't a protected class. BWW has the right to refuse service to anyone as long as it's not because of one of the protected reasons.
I hear you. But this one turned out okay mostly by dumb luck. Illinois is a CCW state, IIRC? Provoking a racial incident could have turned out very badly.

The employees didn't take a stand against their franchise. One elected to 'start a tornado' on her way out the door, using an unknowing mixed race party. Not cool, IMO. Maybe that's what the discussion should be about, what the good guys should be doing in a situation like this?
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:30 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This thread has examples from the staff of a few situations that they've had to deal with because of this man. Rumors of food being sent back if delivered by black people, and overall racist treatment. BWW, through their management, condoned this behavior. A company is their staff.
Upthread I thought I had read a report that BWW was never informed of this.
How, then, are they culpable for this situation?
The racist, in the reports about this incident, had done none of the aforementioned. Had not, in fact, even given a reason for asking that the large party be seated further from him. It was a few members of the staff who decided on their own to start this problem.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:32 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This thread has examples from the staff of a few situations that they've had to deal with because of this man. Rumors of food being sent back if delivered by black people, and overall racist treatment. BWW, through their management, condoned this behavior. A company is their staff.
So the employees should deal with that in a responsible way. Starting a fb campaign or other public call-out. Not trying to piss off an unwitting group of adults with children and telling them they needed to move them away from Barney McSwastikaface.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:35 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

Maybe that's what the discussion should be about, what the good guys should be doing in a situation like this?
Yes, this whole blowup never should have happened because the restaurant should have banned these losers at some point in the past when it became generally known that they were racists. BWW created a safe place for open racism. It is unclear whether that was the specific decision of a manager, or the result of wait staff assuming a similar decision would be made and not forcing the issue. Either way, the culture there sucked, and workplace culture is definitely in the purview of management.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:38 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I hear you. But this one turned out okay mostly by dumb luck. Illinois is a CCW state, IIRC? Provoking a racial incident could have turned out very badly.
It could have. Anything could happen. I'd assume if the man had a gun then the staff would have acted differently, and I'm fairly positive BWW doesn't allow guns on premise.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The employees didn't take a stand against their franchise. One elected to 'start a tornado' on her way out the door, using an unknowing mixed race party. Not cool, IMO. Maybe that's what the discussion should be about, what the good guys should be doing in a situation like this?
I see it as taking a stand against those that kept allowing his bull **** to happen this whole time. This could be a prime example of someone who had to put up with racism because they needed the money and once they found another way to make it, they took this stand. It's just as likely as what you're proposing.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Upthread I thought I had read a report that BWW was never informed of this.
How, then, are they culpable for this situation?
Like, BWW corporate? Is that what you're referring to? Perhaps they weren't notified but if they weren't it was the fault of the management, which represents BWW. The managers, the highest level of "front line" employee, had active knowledge of this man and his views.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The racist, in the reports about this incident, had done none of the aforementioned. Had not, in fact, even given a reason for asking that the large party be seated further from him. It was a few members of the staff who decided on their own to start this problem.
I...don't care. It's obvious his actions weren't isolated to this specific incident. The way he treated people in the past also came into play. This is something that commonly happens on threads like these. People treat these situations as if they happen in a vacuum. As if we can't take body of work into effect.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:39 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, this whole blowup never should have happened because the restaurant should have banned these losers at some point in the past when it became generally known that they were racists. BWW created a safe place for open racism. It is unclear whether that was the specific decision of a manager, or the result of wait staff assuming a similar decision would be made and not forcing the issue.
Hell, it could have even been the choice of a "franchisee", and therefore the instructions to let the racist eat there could have easily come from the tippy top of that specific ownership structure.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:45 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, this whole blowup never should have happened because the restaurant should have banned these losers at some point in the past when it became generally known that they were racists. BWW created a safe place for open racism. It is unclear whether that was the specific decision of a manager, or the result of wait staff assuming a similar decision would be made and not forcing the issue.
My guess is that the managers don't care if a customer is racist or not, as long as he quietly eats his food and pays the bill. The whole 'my employee thinks you hold inappropriate opinions' angle would not fly for long, nationwide.

And of course, how do they vet customers? MAGA hats, next? It's not a workable plan. For practical (and fair) considerations, if they are not being disruptive, they probably need to be left alone.

I mean, spin the argument the other way: should death threat guy be banned? This was an open, unprovoked threat of ******* shooting. How do you ban one for his beliefs and not the other for an actual crime?
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:48 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My guess is that the managers don't care if a customer is racist or not, as long as he quietly eats his food and pays the bill. The whole 'my employee thinks you hold inappropriate opinions' angle would not fly for long, nationwide.

And of course, how do they vet customers? MAGA hats, next? It's not a workable plan. For practical (and fair) considerations, if they are not being disruptive, they probably need to be left alone.

I mean, spin the argument the other way: should death threat guy be banned? This was an open, unprovoked threat of ******* shooting. How do you ban one for his beliefs and not the other for an actual crime?
Plenty of racists have almost certainly flown under the radar by not being obvious racists. It's not really that hard, just eat your food and talk about literally anything else. These people were known racists because they weren't quiet about it. They dumped out their nazi baggage on these folks just trying to do their jobs. That's ban worthy.

Vetting is easy. People who out themselves as racists, say by being an open racist, get the boot. No deep dive needed.

if they wanna ban Glocky McLoudmouth, that seems fine to me. Don't confuse my lack of caring about his surly attitude as endorsing it. I just don't care if Nazis get death threats. The restaurant might, and I still won't care.
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:29 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My guess is that the managers don't care if a customer is racist or not, as long as he quietly eats his food and pays the bill. The whole 'my employee thinks you hold inappropriate opinions' angle would not fly for long, nationwide.
Great, he didn't do that. He returned food when delivered by a person of color, for instance. So, by your own standards, the manager should care. It's degrading to the other people that work there that aren't pasty white and it's ******* childish.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And of course, how do they vet customers? MAGA hats, next? It's not a workable plan. For practical (and fair) considerations, if they are not being disruptive, they probably need to be left alone.
Already addressed. I'm not saying kick anyone with a MAGA hat out, but I'd say "showing blatant racism" would work. Per a previous link:

Quote:
A restaurant manager also told police that several employees had reported past inappropriate conduct from the same person.

“If someone other than a Caucasian employee would bring them food, (redacted) would refuse the food and send it back to the kitchen,” the police report stated.

According to the reports, the man told police that the restaurant employees “had heard him make racist jokes and comments in the past.”
If this guy came in with a swastika tattoo on his shoulder, said nothing to anyone, ate his food and left, no one would care. Again, this isn't, and shouldn't be addressed as an isolated incident. The guy has an established pattern of behavior.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mean, spin the argument the other way: should death threat guy be banned?
I don't give a ****. If he was, great. If not, great. It means **** all to me or the point I'm making.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This was an open, unprovoked threat of ******* shooting. How do you ban one for his beliefs and not the other for an actual crime?
The other guy is completely open to filing charges. If he chose not to then that's up to him. If he chooses to then that's also up to him.
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Old 15th November 2019, 10:32 AM   #234
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Ok. Our noble race warrior employees were making a stand against their racist corporate overlords, the only way they could, if I am reading these arguments right.

Why not simply refuse to serve the racist guy, and have management deal with that *************?

The employees didn't want to take any stand. They wanted to involve an unwitting group of adults and children in a tornado, then disappear. I don't think this is such a great thing. Pick your fights and slug it out, but don't dupe others into your ruse and slink away.
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Old 15th November 2019, 10:37 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Hell, it could have even been the choice of a "franchisee", and therefore the instructions to let the racist eat there could have easily come from the tippy top of that specific ownership structure.
Perhaps.
Maybe the franchisee has a policy of serving everyone regardless of how he/she or they feel about the lifestyle choices of that particular patron.
Like a baker who believes gay marriage is an abomination, yet will still bake a cake for one.
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Old 15th November 2019, 10:39 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok. Our noble race warrior employees were making a stand against their racist corporate overlords, the only way they could, if I am reading these arguments right making up bull ****, hyperbolic strawmen appropriately.
Fixed that for you. We certainly want to be accurate.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why not simply refuse to serve the racist guy, and have management deal with that *************?
It would appear, from what I've read, that he is a regular. Perhaps some people that work for BWW are racist as well. They get along with him. I don't know. It might even be that certain servers have refused to serve him in the past. I don't know, do you?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The employees didn't want to take any stand.
Mind reading, eh? Nice.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They wanted to involve an unwitting group of adults and children in a tornado, then disappear.
One person made that statement anyway. I guess the next skeptical step to take is apply that to everyone involved. That seems totally reasonable.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't think this is such a great thing. Pick your fights and slug it out, but don't dupe others into your ruse and slink away.
Ok boomer.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:56 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Who cares? If sixteen YEARS had passed, there was still not enough information to draw a conclusion. The actual actors who could have refuted the story have run away. The predictable corporate PR apology shed no light on the actual events for skeptical evaluation.The position that any self-proclaimed skeptic should have would be 'not enough to make a call on this one'.

You jumped to conclusions. You were wrong. How many pages are you now going to spend still trying to point the finger at others?
Well, there was enough evidence to satisfy ME that it actually happened... if you don't like that, tough bikkies!!

Furthermore, as it turns out, I was right, and you were wrong. I guess your intuition failed you, didn't it!?
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Old 15th November 2019, 12:07 PM   #238
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At first I believed the story as told with about 52% certainty. I'm now at about 80%. There are some odd aspects to the story but it seems there is sufficient evidence to assume that events happened as described.
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Old 16th November 2019, 05:01 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, there was enough evidence to satisfy ME that it actually happened... if you don't like that, tough bikkies!!
Of course, it didn't actually happen...so there's that.

Quote:
Furthermore, as it turns out, I was right, and you were wrong. I guess your intuition failed you, didn't it!?
Can you please explain this? You thought it was pretty conclusive why the group was asked about their race. The narrative at the time was that the racist twat asked for them to be moved away, and the managers fell over themselves complying. Turns out the workers cooked it up on their own to cause a **** storm. So you were quite wrong.

My position was that we needed to hear from the workers' POV to evaluate fairly. I believe that with the reading of the police report, I was quite correct and it changed the narrative. Certainly got suddenly quiet on the thread, to be sure.
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