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Old 9th January 2017, 01:48 PM   #481
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It seems that the young adult FaceStreamers have ties to a street gang that has been shooting up the far North Side of Chicago for the last couple of years.

Youthful indiscretions, i am sure
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Old 9th January 2017, 03:41 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
....

There are major politicians who make a point at saying that no black lives do not matter, why shouldn't we take them at their word?
Evidence?
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Old 9th January 2017, 04:50 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Courtesy of something I found while following up from something I spotted on Strange Frequencies Radio, CBS is under fire for something that reads as bad summarizing



The full audio clip is linked to in the article.

https://heatst.com/culture-wars/cbs-...ebook-beating/
Of course the mainstream media is going to misrepresent this story to make it sound like it was a hate crime a mentally disabled man. I think somebody upthread even said something to that effect.

But to report it in such a way as to suggest that it was a White on Black hate crime (without actually saying so) is above and beyond the call of duty. Kudos, CBS, for proving me correct.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:52 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Opps, you're right. Besides misspelling his name, I was 10% off his actual position.

So, let me amend my question to you and Wolrab; do you think that more than 90% of the reports are faked?

Also, how about absolutely anything on my post above that one?

EDIT: You know what, scratch that. How about replying to post 446, which was a directly reply to you.
Do I think more then 90% of the Trump supporters hate crimes are faked? Like Trump supporters committing hate crimes on different groups? Like the 700+ figure the SPLC put out? Yes, I think it's somewhere around 90% probably over. I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong and it was only like 75%. But yeah, I think 90% at least.

Also, not sure what you meant by refer to post 446. Maybe I got it wrong, but it didn't look like yours.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:42 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Do I think more then 90% of the Trump supporters hate crimes are faked? Like Trump supporters committing hate crimes on different groups? Like the 700+ figure the SPLC put out? Yes, I think it's somewhere around 90% probably over. I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong and it was only like 75%. But yeah, I think 90% at least.

Also, not sure what you meant by refer to post 446. Maybe I got it wrong, but it didn't look like yours.
In addition to the number of reports that are in some sense fakes, it is very unclear what the previous rate of this was. SPLC weren't trawling social media looking for reports of hate crimes prior to this and peoples motivation to report and share these kinds of incidents has clearly changed. Even if every reported case was 100% valid, the SPLC haven't designed their data collection to answer questions about whether there has been an increase in hate crime.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:10 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
In addition to the number of reports that are in some sense fakes, it is very unclear what the previous rate of this was. SPLC weren't trawling social media looking for reports of hate crimes prior to this and peoples motivation to report and share these kinds of incidents has clearly changed. Even if every reported case was 100% valid, the SPLC haven't designed their data collection to answer questions about whether there has been an increase in hate crime.
If you go to the SPLC's website and look up their list of right-wing hate crimes, you see that they include the IS/Omar Mateen shooting attack on the Orlando nightclub (50 dead) in that category.

In case you ever wonder what goes into the sausage that is their statistics.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:44 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Evidence?
The broad hatred of the phrase saying that the matter. So either black lives matter or they do not. Which is it?
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:47 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
If you go to the SPLC's website and look up their list of right-wing hate crimes, you see that they include the IS/Omar Mateen shooting attack on the Orlando nightclub (50 dead) in that category.
Clearly a religious extremist killing gays is left wing.

Or is it that as not a True American being muslim he doesn't count for right wing? Was it the race or the religion that prevents him from being right wing?
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:23 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The broad hatred of the phrase saying that the matter. So either black lives matter or they do not. Which is it?
All lives matter. Some lives matter more than others, apparently.
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Old 10th January 2017, 09:51 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
Do I think more then 90% of the Trump supporters hate crimes are faked? Like Trump supporters committing hate crimes on different groups? Like the 700+ figure the SPLC put out? Yes, I think it's somewhere around 90% probably over. I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong and it was only like 75%. But yeah, I think 90% at least.

Also, not sure what you meant by refer to post 446. Maybe I got it wrong, but it didn't look like yours.
No, it isn't mine, but I would still like to see the true skeptics here address the questions therein. It was in response to theprestige, so I felt he was the one most appropriate to answer.

You could have a crack at it if you like. How would you answer the, "What's up with that? Is it because all Black people are retarded so anytime you beat up a Black person and call him a (n-word redacted), the "special needs" angle is just assumed," question?
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:33 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
All lives matter. Some lives matter more than others, apparently.
Of course they do.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:58 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The broad hatred of the phrase saying that the matter. So either black lives matter or they do not. Which is it?
You said " ....There are major politicians who make a point at saying that no black lives do not matter, .. "

So, quotes from said major politicians would prove you are not just expelling smoke from your anus..

If you really meant to say something else, for which you have evidence, now would be a good time to say it.

Your opinions are not evidence of anything except your opinions.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:00 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, it isn't mine, but I would still like to see the true skeptics here address the questions therein. It was in response to theprestige, so I felt he was the one most appropriate to answer.

You could have a crack at it if you like. How would you answer the, "What's up with that? Is it because all Black people are retarded so anytime you beat up a Black person and call him a (n-word redacted), the "special needs" angle is just assumed," question?
It's an intentionally inflammatory reading of the general facts of the case to make a point. It could be true but only if the ONLY time racially motivated Black on White crime was called a "hate crime" was if the White victim(s) was developmentally disabled in some way while developmental disability was not a factor in calling racially motivated White on Black crime a "hate crime."

It's not as clear cut as interpreting the University of California affirmative action policy in the pre-Bakke era as a tacit admission that the Regents believed Blacks and Mexicans are too stupid to compete with White people so academic standards need to be lowered for these people so we can admit more of them.

We're not there yet but with a few more Chicagos, we might be.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:03 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The broad hatred of the phrase saying that the matter. So either black lives matter or they do not. Which is it?
They matter no more nor no less than any other lives. Black Lives Matter. Asian Lives Matter. Jewish Lives Matter. Rich White Protestant Male Heterosexual Lives Matter.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:24 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They matter no more nor no less than any other lives. Black Lives Matter. Asian Lives Matter. Jewish Lives Matter. Rich White Protestant Male Heterosexual Lives Matter.
But people take serious issues with only one of those statements. A great many people don't like hearing that other people matter.
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:25 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But people take serious issues with only one of those statements. A great many people don't like hearing that other people matter.
amen, just try saying all lives matter to a BLM supporter, they next level lose their ****.

Good post!
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:12 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You could have a crack at it if you like. How would you answer the, "What's up with that? Is it because all Black people are retarded so anytime you beat up a Black person and call him a (n-word redacted), the "special needs" angle is just assumed," question?

I'm still not getting what you want here. I personally don't like the idea of calling this a hate crime. The Chicago beating. It's obvious they despise white people. But I don't think it's good for anyone if they get charged with a hate crime. I think they should get 5 years in jail. In an ideal world they would get the help they need (they won't).
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:18 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm still not getting what you want here. I personally don't like the idea of calling this a hate crime. The Chicago beating. It's obvious they despise white people. But I don't think it's good for anyone if they get charged with a hate crime. I think they should get 5 years in jail. In an ideal world they would get the help they need (they won't).
you know that they are hooked up with a notorious Chicago Street Gang, right?
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:15 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
you know that they are hooked up with a notorious Chicago Street Gang, right?
Yeah.... they might be too far gone.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:44 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
If you go to the SPLC's website and look up their list of right-wing hate crimes, you see that they include the IS/Omar Mateen shooting attack on the Orlando nightclub (50 dead) in that category.

In case you ever wonder what goes into the sausage that is their statistics.
That's kind of one of the problems here - cherry picking. Shouldn't ALL hate crimes be monitored, regardless of the political persuasion of the offender?
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:45 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The broad hatred of the phrase saying that the matter. So either black lives matter or they do not. Which is it?
LIVES matter. Black lives matter no less, but also no more, than lives of any other skin color.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:47 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, it isn't mine, but I would still like to see the true skeptics here address the questions therein. It was in response to theprestige, so I felt he was the one most appropriate to answer.
It didn't merit a response. Lack of response to an obviously inflammatory and inciting comment doesn't suggest support. It suggests a common sense response. I don't reward my god-daughter with attention when she throws a tantrum in the middle of the store either.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:48 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm still not getting what you want here. I personally don't like the idea of calling this a hate crime. The Chicago beating. It's obvious they despise white people. But I don't think it's good for anyone if they get charged with a hate crime. I think they should get 5 years in jail. In an ideal world they would get the help they need (they won't).
I'm asking for your take on CaptainHowdy's post, and the questions in it.

Do you think when a White (capitalized for some reason) person beats a Black kid and calls him the n-word, he always gets charged with a hate crime? Do you think that when the races are reversed, no hate crime is charged unless the white person is special-needs?

Do you think the reason these things 'happen' (they're not true) is because people assume black people are all special-needs? What do you think of these questions being asked in the manner they were being ignored by people who assert they do care about racism, if only we had some good examples? Or who assert they're just being skeptical of all claims while not addressing the claims implicit in those questions in any way?

I think CaptainHowdy's argument is not only made extremely poorly, it's build on many assumptions that I'm highly skeptical of. I'm just trying to sit back and let the true skeptics show me how it's done though.

I'll wait.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:49 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It didn't merit a response. Lack of response to an obviously inflammatory and inciting comment doesn't suggest support. It suggests a common sense response. I don't reward my god-daughter with attention when she throws a tantrum in the middle of the store either.
I didn't suggest support.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:51 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But people take serious issues with only one of those statements. A great many people don't like hearing that other people matter.
There's a monumental difference between opposing the methods and means employed by a specific movement (which I do oppose) and opposing the message that the movement is supposed to be evangelizing.

I 100% agree that there is a huge systemic disparity in the US, on the basis of race. The judiciary and law enforcement systems are biased, societal expectations and suppositions are biased. Those institutional biases absolutely need to be addressed, and I fully support doing so.

But I also completely disagree with many of the tactics used by the BLM organization.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:52 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of one of the problems here - cherry picking. Shouldn't ALL hate crimes be monitored, regardless of the political persuasion of the offender?
Yes. Unfortunately, our (US) systems are often...lacking.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
LIVES matter. Black lives matter no less, but also no more, than lives of any other skin color.
That's a nice thing to say. The dispute of Black Lives Matter is that very often, it seems as if black lives are taken for no reason, and without consequence. It's certainly true that the humans who tortured that poor mentally challenged 18-year old should be punished, but let's turn this lens onto, say, George Zimmerman...

I'm sure you agree with me there.
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Old 10th January 2017, 03:53 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I didn't suggest support.
It appeared that you were implying that the lack of a response to that post was tantamount to tacit support for the viewpoint expressed. It appeared to me that you were in essence "calling out" the posters in this thread because they didn't reply to that post.
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Old 10th January 2017, 04:20 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
EDIT: You know what, scratch that. How about replying to post 446, which was a directly reply to you.
Sure.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Could you describe my straw man, or point out where I made it? Perhaps address anything rather than the passive-aggressiveness.
We already covered Caper's claim. I think his conclusion is a bit extreme, but I agree in general with his take on the problems with the SPLC report.

Quote:
Do you believe that all the reports are fake?
No. I do, however, believe that the claim that a "massive wave of hate crimes follows Trump election" is fake. It's a fake news headline intended to wrongly imply that Trump's rise stimulated racist violence.

I think it's fake because the SPLC report cannot support the claim. Not only were many of the reports cited by the SPLC not verified at the time the claim was made, but many by their nature seem to be unverifiable. In addition, it seems like there has been no effort to control for an increase in reporting of crimes, versus an increase in the crimes themselves.

At the same time, we have seen a number of comically ill-advised fake reports following the Trump election. Reports that were published as true, sometimes by the national media. These reports further fuelled the fake narrative of Trump-inspired hate crimes.

And that's pretty much where this thread has ended up: No, not all the reports are fake. But there is definitely a fake narrative being pushed, driven in part by bogus reports.

I can totally understand if you want to try to drag this thread back around to a discussion of the real problem of hate crime in this country. I think that given the claim in the thread title, and the support for that claim offered in the OP, it's going to be tough going if you go that route. But I won't begrudge you the effort. Right now, though, it kinda looks like you're upset that people are attacking the fake narrative instead.

Quote:
For example, am I lying about the things I've heard in person?
Don't know, don't care. Unverifiable anecdotes are unverifiable.

Quote:
Those aren't crimes of course, but this hiding behind the 'no massive wave, therefore nothing else worth discussing' thing over and over is silly. If you don't think anything else on the topic needs said, then stop. I think there is enough around it to discuss.
Nothing stops you from discussing whatever you want to discuss. You don't have to attack the fake narrative if you don't want to.

Quote:
Hell, it would even be nice to see you turn that skepticism towards the supposed anti-white hate crime linked to earlier which didn't appear to have any motive besides robbery and murder. But no, skepticism here only goes one direction, while ironically crowing about skepticism not being applied enough.
The playground is big enough for the both of us. Feel free to climb on the monkey bars while I swing on the swings.

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Old 10th January 2017, 04:24 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It appeared that you were implying that the lack of a response to that post was tantamount to tacit support for the viewpoint expressed. It appeared to me that you were in essence "calling out" the posters in this thread because they didn't reply to that post.
I think tyr was understandably frustrated. I didn't think he was calling me out.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:07 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey if they are like those white football players that raped and abused a mentally disabled black teammate they should only get probation. That seems to be the standard right?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...john-rk-howard
The Chicago 4 were adults, not high school sportsteamsters, so they don't get the free pass given to high school jocks, white or black.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:10 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
The Chicago 4 were adults, not high school sportsteamsters, so they don't get the free pass given to high school jocks, white or black.
Also, let's be real, there's the "video on Facebook" thing. These particular ****s made it easy to scapegoat them.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:22 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Also, let's be real, there's the "video on Facebook" thing. These particular ****s made it easy to scapegoat them.
Exactly, if anything I am reminded from one scene of the 1995 horror anthology film 'Tales from the Hood', in the last story before the films payoff, a gangbanger is confronted by a white supremacist who states that he actually admires the gangbanger because he has been doing the supremacists work for him (eg. Killing Blacks.)

I think it also turned up in the one of the video's I have watched, where the speaker thanked the attackers for giving racists such an easy target.

As a side note I'd like to suggest that the posts about the Chicago incident be placed into a separate thread.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:28 PM   #513
Noztradamus
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm still not getting what you want here. I personally don't like the idea of calling this a hate crime. The Chicago beating. It's obvious they despise white people. But I don't think it's good for anyone if they get charged with a hate crime. I think they should get 5 years in jail. In an ideal world they would get the help they need (they won't).
That's harsh. [/sarc]

In the real world, under Illinios law, this is aggravated kidnapping, minimum 6 to maximum 30 years

https://kidnapping.uslegal.com/state...bduction-laws/

And as it's aggravated on three counts (ransom demand, bodily harm, mentally retarded victim), I don't see the lower end justified.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:35 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
That's harsh. [/sarc]

In the real world, under Illinios law, this is aggravated kidnapping, minimum 6 to maximum 30 years

https://kidnapping.uslegal.com/state...bduction-laws/

And as it's aggravated on three counts (ransom demand, bodily harm, mentally retarded victim), I don't see the lower end justified.
We should also consider what may have happened had this young man not been able to escape his captors when he did.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:45 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's a nice thing to say. The dispute of Black Lives Matter is that very often, it seems as if black lives are taken for no reason, and without consequence. It's certainly true that the humans who tortured that poor mentally challenged 18-year old should be punished, but let's turn this lens onto, say, George Zimmerman...

I'm sure you agree with me there.
It is a nice thing to say and it is absolutely true. It also "seems" to me that the thousands of young black innocent lives that are lost to inner city gang violence should be the primary focus of any organization with Black Lives Matter in its name.

And you are going to compare this to Zimmerman really? Or were you trying to say something else? If this young man had been able to get hold of a gun and kill a few of his captors would you have called it murder? Did anyone ever prove Zimmerman did not act in self defense at the time of the shot? Or are Mexicans not considered innocent until proven guilty?
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Old 10th January 2017, 09:48 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Exactly, if anything I am reminded from one scene of the 1995 horror anthology film 'Tales from the Hood', in the last story before the films payoff, a gangbanger is confronted by a white supremacist who states that he actually admires the gangbanger because he has been doing the supremacists work for him (eg. Killing Blacks.)

I think it also turned up in the one of the video's I have watched, where the speaker thanked the attackers for giving racists such an easy target.

As a side note I'd like to suggest that the posts about the Chicago incident be placed into a separate thread.
Not quite my point, but true. And yeah, possible separate thread.

My point was that, if that **** who stuck a hanger up a mentally challenged kid's rectum had done it in front of a camera on Facebook Live, there would have been a similar uproar. There's no real need to say "well, let's compare this case to that case." They're both disgusting and awful, in their own way.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:04 PM   #517
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So, you want this fight, huh?

Well, let's do it, then...

Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
It is a nice thing to say and it is absolutely true. It also "seems" to me that the thousands of young black innocent lives that are lost to inner city gang violence should be the primary focus of any organization with Black Lives Matter in its name.
And why should they focus where you want? An of course many of the activists with Black Lives Matter have been involved with ending street-level violence. The fact that you've missed all of the rallies, sponsorships, meals...means that *you* are not interested.

Quote:
And you are going to compare this to Zimmerman really? Or were you trying to say something else? If this young man had been able to get hold of a gun and kill a few of his captors would you have called it murder? Did anyone ever prove Zimmerman did not act in self defense at the time of the shot? Or are Mexicans not considered innocent until proven guilty?
Yep, I'll discuss Zimmerman really. The guy's still a racist and a murderer. No, he did not act in self-defense when he decided to chase a young person down the street for having the wrong skin color.

Seems pretty obvious. Until the murderer spins a tale where the black guy he chased down was a "thug" who was on weed, spouting blaxploitation lines.

Now, let's get back to reality. How about we punish actual, "I wanted to harm others", crime, rather than a standard that chooses based on skin color, or who was on Facebook, or whatever?
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:30 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I'm still not getting what you want here. I personally don't like the idea of calling this a hate crime. The Chicago beating. It's obvious they despise white people. But I don't think it's good for anyone if they get charged with a hate crime. I think they should get 5 years in jail. In an ideal world they would get the help they need (they won't).
Yes, and Dylan Roof was just acting rowdy. One year probation, maybe some community service and mandatory sensitivity classes.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:01 AM   #519
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Here is another such attack:

Bomb threats target Jewish community centers from Florida to New Jersey

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ida-new-jersey

I actually found this story while trying to disprove a claim by Coast2Coast AMs 'science advisor' that the mainstream media was not reporting the story.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:21 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
LIVES matter. Black lives matter no less, but also no more, than lives of any other skin color.
Not enough to care though. It is interesting that saying that X matters is taken as a statement other things don't. It is clear from peoples behavior that it isn't true that they think those shifty blacks really don't deserve more scrutiny than other races.
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