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Tags border issues , donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 15th July 2018, 01:26 PM   #1361
Aridas
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I wanted to make a correction to my post saying the Secretary of Homeland Security said the children separated from their parents were children not accompanied by an adult. Sorry that was not what she said. She said those seeking asylum and coming in through the ports of entry were not separated from their children.
They largely aren't. The zero tolerance policy can't be used as justification in that situation, after all. That point was fairly well covered already, though. That doesn't address the various other issues in play at the points of entry, though.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I think since this is involved she needed to give a much more detailed account of what was taking place. She also said the media was not reporting this accurately which lead me to believe I needed to research and find the truth.
And I would give remarkably limited credence to the words of any Trump Administration official when they talk about how fake the "news" is.
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Old 15th July 2018, 01:27 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Didn't get to read the story, they want you to pay.
Use incognito mode on your browser.

Quote:
I have no doubt the majority of children separated from their parents would have rather stayed with their parents.
The majority???

Quote:
I'm wondering what these children lived like before their parents chose to break our laws and bring their children to America?
They lived in a state of fear.

Quote:
Think about the women and children you read about found dead in the back of trucks, semis, vans etc. They cook to death. I myself find that terrifying, also the women and children who get nabbed by sex traffickers and all the horrific stories you hear about what can happen to these people fleeing their own countries to live in another.
Yes, what WOULD compel parents to brave such dangers to come to the U.S.? You'd have to have pretty good reasons to make a dangerous journey like that, right? What do you think those reasons might be?

Quote:
I would love to see it stop and people be educated as to how to safely find a new home.
And people say liberals have their heads in the clouds...

Quote:
I understand the emotion that got stirred up when many found out children were being separated from their parents at our borders but to be honest with you I felt the story was sensationalized.
Of course you do. After all, it was just a bunch of brown people. I'm surprised Fox covered it at all.

Quote:
I'm happy they are checking these people to see if any abuse has or is happening to the children and only letting asylum seekers who qualify stay. Also happy they have a way to reunite these families and hopefully they find a way to make the changes at the border for people entering illegally to have a swift process.
Perhaps the families shouldn't have been broken up in the first place?

Quote:
I've read some cases the ACLU has taken on and I hope for any migrants or immigrants that feel they have a criminal case they can get justice.
Before you move on to justice, let's work on getting the kids back with their parents.
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Old 15th July 2018, 01:47 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I haven't found any proof telling me it was the Trumps Administrations agenda to take away the children forever.
I'm not sure it was the agenda, but it was a foreseeable consequence. Also some administration officials saw it as a deterrent.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Can you show me where you found this information about the ports being closed on purpose?
NPR, for one.

After Traveling 2,000 Miles For Asylum, This Family's Journey Halts At A Bridge


Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
They have given a recent update on children under five being reunited with their parents. Seems to be coming along pretty well.
They're under a court-ordered deadline and are getting their act together. But without public pressure I don't think that would be happening.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'm hoping Sessions said what he said just to try and cover up how poorly this was executed.
I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
A problem with incarcerating these people if they end up with a felony is we don't have room in our Federal prisons.
I'm thinking more along the lines of arrest warrants from states, so a prisoner would go to that state. But anyway, the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world so you're right, prisons in general are crowded.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I mentioned money because it didn't make sense to me they would travel carrying a lot of money and bail or bond may be impossible to make. Yes the dangers for many of these people is horrible and hopefully this behavior will be lessened by what Trump is attempting to do.
What is Trump attempting to do? The majority belief here is that all he cares about is making himself richer and shoring up his popularity with his base.

You at this point know more about immigration than he does. Because you care about truth. IMO, Trump does not.

Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
At this time I wouldn't be surprised if some people lose their jobs for what has happened.
It would in a normal administration, under better leadership.
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Old 15th July 2018, 04:37 PM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not sure it was the agenda, but it was a foreseeable consequence. Also some administration officials saw it as a deterrent.



NPR, for one.

After Traveling 2,000 Miles For Asylum, This Family's Journey Halts At A Bridge


They're under a court-ordered deadline and are getting their act together. But without public pressure I don't think that would be happening.

I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm thinking more along the lines of arrest warrants from states, so a prisoner would go to that state. But anyway, the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate in the world so you're right, prisons in general are crowded.

What is Trump attempting to do? The majority belief here is that all he cares about is making himself richer and shoring up his popularity with his base.

You at this point know more about immigration than he does. Because you care about truth. IMO, Trump does not.

It would in a normal administration, under better leadership.
The intent from the start of the Trump administration was to separate families.

Exclusive: Trump administration considering separating women, children at Mexico border

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Women and children crossing together illegally into the United States could be separated by U.S. authorities under a proposal being considered by the Department of Homeland Security, according to three government officials.

Part of the reason for the proposal is to deter mothers from migrating to the United States with their children, said the officials, who have been briefed on the proposal.

The policy shift would allow the government to keep parents in custody while they contest deportation or wait for asylum hearings. Children would be put into protective custody with the Department of Health and Human Services, in the “least restrictive setting” until they can be taken into the care of a U.S. relative or state-sponsored guardian.

Currently, families contesting deportation or applying for asylum are generally released from detention quickly and allowed to remain in the United States until their cases are resolved. A federal appeals court ruling bars prolonged child detention.

President Donald Trump has called for ending “catch and release,” in which migrants who cross illegally are freed to live in the United States while awaiting legal proceedings.

Two of the officials were briefed on the proposal at a Feb. 2 town hall for asylum officers by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services asylum chief John Lafferty.

A third DHS official said the department is actively considering separating women from their children but has not made a decision.
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Old 15th July 2018, 05:00 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Didn't get to read the story, they want you to pay.
Opening in an incognito window usually fixes that.

Please do that and read it. It's heartbreaking and disgusting, including drugging of little kids who act up.
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Old 15th July 2018, 05:51 PM   #1366
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The intent from the start of the Trump administration was to separate families.
Clearly, but what I meant is, making the separation permanent was quite possibly not intended.

But seeing as how there was apparently no clear procedure for reuniting parents and children, possible permanent separation was a foreseeable consequence.

What did they think was going to happen?
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Old 15th July 2018, 06:12 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Clearly, but what I meant is, making the separation permanent was quite possibly not intended.

But seeing as how there was apparently no clear procedure for reuniting parents and children, possible permanent separation was a foreseeable consequence.

What did they think was going to happen?
The current GOP's a little hard to figure out when it comes to their predictive abilities. There's a strange mix of ignoring reality when it comes to topics touched by partisanship, cynical playing to a somewhat brainwashed base, and ideological evil. Man, the Kochs, Mercers, and Sinclair have done an amazing job of f***ing up that Party. As time's gone by, the balance has fairly certainly shifted from favoring the second to favoring the first and third under the unrelenting assault on the soul of the party seemingly headed by those people.
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Old 15th July 2018, 08:05 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The current GOP's a little hard to figure out when it comes to their predictive abilities. There's a strange mix of ignoring reality when it comes to topics touched by partisanship, cynical playing to a somewhat brainwashed base, and ideological evil. Man, the Kochs, Mercers, and Sinclair have done an amazing job of f***ing up that Party. As time's gone by, the balance has fairly certainly shifted from favoring the second to favoring the first and third under the unrelenting assault on the soul of the party seemingly headed by those people.
I'm no expert but I think in 3-4 weeks the media will be carrying stories about "farmers" (really probably agricultural conglomerates) not having enough labor to harvest the crops. Especially in light of low unemployment. It is a sly not-so-secret fact that in some ways this economy benefits from having illegal labor. I know you say it doesn't have to be illegal, but given the opposition that guest-worker provisions evince, it will be illegal, because trying to create a legal route is pretty much doomed to fail.

Last edited by Minoosh; 15th July 2018 at 08:08 PM. Reason: word choice
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Old 15th July 2018, 08:08 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Opening in an incognito window usually fixes that.

Please do that and read it. It's heartbreaking and disgusting, including drugging of little kids who act up.
I clear history a lot in order to get past NYT and WaPo paywalls. Occasionally I contribute to The Guardian. I'm a Mac person; I don't get prompted to open an incognito window though there must be a way to do it.
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Old 15th July 2018, 09:08 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I clear history a lot in order to get past NYT and WaPo paywalls. Occasionally I contribute to The Guardian. I'm a Mac person; I don't get prompted to open an incognito window though there must be a way to do it.

You don't get prompted in Windows browsers either. You have to tell the browser to open a link in one.
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Old 17th July 2018, 11:42 AM   #1371
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Bump.

Republicans. Children in cages.
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Old 17th July 2018, 01:26 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Minoosh


Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
I'm hoping Sessions said what he said just to try and cover up how poorly this was executed.
I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Too bloody right - look at video of Sessions when discussing this policy. Especially before it was found to be unpopular.

He was practically cackling with glee
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Old 18th July 2018, 02:55 AM   #1373
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Four members of the Homeland Security Advisory Council have resigned over this issue
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Old 18th July 2018, 04:15 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Bump.

Republicans. Children in cages.
For their base, as long as those children are non-white, that's actually a positive.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:11 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Bump.

Republicans. Children in cages.
Democrats also put the children in "cages". Were you ok with it then?
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:17 AM   #1376
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Anecdotal story.
One of my daughters friends was driving in upstate NY around 2014 with her husband (an American citizen) and her children (born in America). They were stopped and somehow it was determined she had been in the US illegally and apparently her license or SSN was not valid.
They took her to a detention center that night in front of her crying children. She spent several months there and then was deported to Columbia.
The ending of the story is good though she was able to legally return to the US after about more than a year out of the country and some hefty legal bills.
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Old 18th July 2018, 07:28 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Anecdotal story.
One of my daughters friends was driving in upstate NY around 2014 with her husband (an American citizen) and her children (born in America). They were stopped and somehow it was determined she had been in the US illegally and apparently her license or SSN was not valid.
They took her to a detention center that night in front of her crying children. She spent several months there and then was deported to Columbia.
The ending of the story is good though she was able to legally return to the US after about more than a year out of the country and some hefty legal bills.
First, I'm happy your daughter's friend has been reunited with her family.

Second, given the way some of the actions are progressing against "illegals" I'll be pleasantly surprised if similar cases in the future don't also result in the arrest of the spouse for "aiding and abetting" and the impounding of the family vehicle and home as part of a RICO scheme.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:02 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Anecdotal story.
One of my daughters friends was driving in upstate NY around 2014 with her husband (an American citizen) and her children (born in America). They were stopped and somehow it was determined she had been in the US illegally and apparently her license or SSN was not valid.
They took her to a detention center that night in front of her crying children. She spent several months there and then was deported to Columbia.
The ending of the story is good though she was able to legally return to the US after about more than a year out of the country and some hefty legal bills.
And what is the point of this? There is a huge difference between deporting people with a hearing, and separating asylum seekers families at the border to send a message that there is no sanctuary here.

I get it Identify Theft is a victimless crime or something.
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:44 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Democrats also put the children in "cages". Were you ok with it then?
"Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

It’s not that no family was ever separated at the border under the Obama administration. But former Obama administration officials specify that families were separated only in particular circumstances — for instance, if a father was carrying drugs — that went above and beyond a typical case of illegal entry.
"
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/174884...aration-border
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Old 18th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #1380
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Trump administration working to denaturalise naturalised citizens
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:05 AM   #1381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Democrats also put the children in "cages". Were you ok with it then?
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

It’s not that no family was ever separated at the border under the Obama administration. But former Obama administration officials specify that families were separated only in particular circumstances — for instance, if a father was carrying drugs — that went above and beyond a typical case of illegal entry.
"
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/174884...aration-border
I was answering the post about the republican party being the party of putting kids in cages not about separation.
Most of the kids put in "cages" by the previous administration were unaccompanied minors.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:14 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And what is the point of this? There is a huge difference between deporting people with a hearing, and separating asylum seekers families at the border to send a message that there is no sanctuary here.

I get it Identify Theft is a victimless crime or something.
My point was these types of things have always been occurring only we did not hear about them.

She was immediately separated from her family before any hearing. I am assuming she was sent back after a hearing but I don't know those details.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:38 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
My point was these types of things have always been occurring only we did not hear about them.

She was immediately separated from her family before any hearing. I am assuming she was sent back after a hearing but I don't know those details.
That's because it was not happening then due to an intentional policy of separation. The Trump administration specifically implemented a policy of family separation for purposes of deterrence. They also tried to use the policy as leverage to get the Democrats to agree to their immigration plans. This is all on record.
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:41 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
My point was these types of things have always been occurring only we did not hear about them.

She was immediately separated from her family before any hearing. I am assuming she was sent back after a hearing but I don't know those details.
The thing is that is different from say someone who has broken no law at all like people seeking asylum. There seems to be some serious lack of details to figure out exactly what was going on.

Of course whenever any parent is sent to prison they are separated from their children. THe details matter.
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Old 18th July 2018, 03:28 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The thing is that is different from say someone who has broken no law at all like people seeking asylum. There seems to be some serious lack of details to figure out exactly what was going on.

Of course whenever any parent is sent to prison they are separated from their children. THe details matter.
Are any laws broken when someone is caught in the country illegally?
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Old 18th July 2018, 03:48 PM   #1386
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Not if they immediately surrender and request asylum.

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Old 18th July 2018, 03:50 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Democrats also put the children in "cages". Were you ok with it then?
No.

The reason there even was that 2014 picture of immigrants in that large cage with the space blankets was because people were outraged then. And you can bet that wasn't Republicans or the alt-white that were outraged.
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Old 18th July 2018, 06:22 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Are any laws broken when someone is caught in the country illegally?
Considering it's a misdemeanor, what do we do with drivers who don't have insurance?
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Old 18th July 2018, 11:26 PM   #1389
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Bump. National cyber shields down, defense and security agencies say "light blinking red." Instead, Republican obsession with a Wall, while Republican farmers clamor for the missing cheap labor. Children in cages. When will Republicans ever show some spine? Cut and run, cut and run from facts. Wave them pink hankies!
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Old Yesterday, 12:13 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Bump. National cyber shields down, defense and security agencies say "light blinking red." Instead, Republican obsession with a Wall, while Republican farmers clamor for the missing cheap labor. Children in cages. When will Republicans ever show some spine? Cut and run, cut and run from facts. Wave them pink hankies!
The thing is that IMO the GOP has this immigration thing at a sweet spot - for them.

The last thing that they want is to actually stem the flow of cheap labour. Too many industries rely on illegal immigrants who they can pay below market rate (and minimum wage) and with poor working conditions safe in the knowledge that their illegal status prevents them from complaining.

That said, a big hullabaloo about how strict they are being also serves the GOP well. It increases the sense of unease among illegal immigrants - making them even riper for exploitation - and it gives the GOP base assurances that they are working hard to keep brown people out of the country.

So this crackdown is having the desired effect. IMO it won't have a significant long-term impact on the number of illegal immigrants in the US but it will deny them a path to citizenship (important to stop them voting Democrat), keep them nicely exploitable and allow the GOP faithful to think that their representatives are doing a great job.

The WallTM is an excellent example of this kind of thing, functionally almost useless but symbolically very important.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 AM   #1391
Aridas
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Hmm. This is tangentially related, but...

Survivors describe sexual abuse under ICE custody: 'He told me that I was going to be deported'

Quote:
ICE, according to Cassie, claims that the number of reported assaults “is relatively low.” But according to advocacy group CIVIC last year, “Homeland Security received a total of 33,126 complaints of sexual and/or physical abuse from January 2010 to July 2016. Of those, only 225—.07 percent—have been investigated.” Last year, ICE even floated destroying records about immigrant abuse, and only backed down due to backlash.

More recently, Laura Monterrosa, a Salvadoran asylum seeker, said she was thrown into solitary confinement for speaking out about the abuse she suffered while at Hutto. “The ICE official went as far as telling her that he expected her to recant her claim to the media,” her advocates said, “or else she would be locked up again in solitary confinement indefinitely.” Laura was eventually freed.
...Somehow, I don't especially expect the treatment to get much better without serious oversight changes.
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Old Yesterday, 03:28 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Are any laws broken when someone is caught in the country illegally?
Depends of course the current policy isn't even about people in the country illegally plenty of people who entered legally and applied for asylum are covered too.

Here is the thing, that may or may not have been something I would think excessive. I am reminded of the issues of Randi and his husband.

But it is still a far cry from the policies enacted by the current administration.
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Old Yesterday, 03:31 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Considering it's a misdemeanor, what do we do with drivers who don't have insurance?
And yet by definition a misdemeanor is any crime punishable by no more than one year in jail. So we are comfortable separating adults from their children for misdemeanors. Parenthood has never been a get our of jail free card.
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Old Yesterday, 03:32 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Bump. National cyber shields down, defense and security agencies say "light blinking red." Instead, Republican obsession with a Wall, while Republican farmers clamor for the missing cheap labor. Children in cages. When will Republicans ever show some spine? Cut and run, cut and run from facts. Wave them pink hankies!
And of course Trumps steel tariffs are costing american manufacturing jobs.
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