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Old 7th April 2021, 07:46 PM   #1001
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From Worldometer:

Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,637,243
Deaths:
572,849

New Cases:
75,183
New Deaths:
873
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Old 8th April 2021, 06:56 PM   #1002
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From Worldometer:

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United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,717,404
Deaths:
573,856

New Cases:
80,161
New Deaths:
1,009
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Old 9th April 2021, 07:08 PM   #1003
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From Worldometer:

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United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,802,772
Deaths:
574,840

New Cases:
85,368
New Deaths:
929
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Old 9th April 2021, 09:59 PM   #1004
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To poke at a couple things of some note...

Vaccine is piling up in red states, as Republican anti-science threatens national health

*sigh*

Also, Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal

*sigh*
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Old 10th April 2021, 11:05 AM   #1005
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Yep.

The projections for a peak death total of 600,000 death by the end of the year,
now look quite a bit higher. Health Data Trends

Even the bottom of the page for Google Forecast show a linear growth rate
over the next few months.
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Old 10th April 2021, 07:41 PM   #1006
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From Worldometer:

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United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,869,980
Deaths:
575,593

New Cases:
66,764
New Deaths:
740
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Old 11th April 2021, 07:31 PM   #1007
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From Worldometer:

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United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,918,591
Deaths:
575,829

New Cases:
47,864
New Deaths:
276
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Old 12th April 2021, 03:48 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Red states are leading the wave of this, but this is surely going to be a problem in every state.

I fear a lot of the success in mass vaccination right now has a lot to do with the scarcity. People across the country are smashing F5 on their keyboards all day long trying to get these vaccine appointments. The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up.

I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics, allowing for vaccine doses to expire or otherwise creating needless waste of time and materials.

I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective.
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Old 12th April 2021, 04:03 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective.
Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?
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Old 12th April 2021, 05:50 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up.

I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics
My hope is that most people dragging their feet are wanting to see how everyone else reacts, essentially letting the early adopters be guinea pigs. Unfortunately this won't include people who think there may be longterm effects, like months or years out.
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Old 12th April 2021, 06:07 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?
As far as denying healthcare, almost certainly not. This is a level of moral triage that health care providers rightly want nothing to do with. Payment is another matter, but lack of payment is not going to be relevant at point of care for an emergency condition such as respiratory failure due to severe covid.

I'm not sure what means are available for employers to require employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment.
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Old 12th April 2021, 06:27 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?
Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated.

I do think people should be able to choose not be vaccinated, but such choices have consequences.
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:01 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated.
....
There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now.
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:09 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now.
Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented.
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:15 AM   #1015
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A look at the long-term economic impact of refusing to take a covid vaccine.
Quote:
If the 30 percent of Americans who are telling pollsters they won’t get vaccinated follow through, the costs of their decisions will pile up. The economy could take longer to get back to full speed, and once it does, it could get shut down again by outbreaks. Variants will continue to spread, and more people will die. Each COVID-19 case requires weeks of costly rehabilitation. Even after the pandemic fades, millions of vaccine refusers could turn into hundreds of thousands of patients who need extra care, should they come down with the disease.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-costs/618528/
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:18 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented.
It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection.
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:40 PM   #1017
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From Worldometer:

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United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,990,143
Deaths:
576,298

New Cases:
56,522
New Deaths:
460
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Old 13th April 2021, 06:58 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection.
Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US.

I think a passport system probably would convince some fence sitters to get the vaccine, but you have to go into such a program knowing there's also going to be a vicious backlash from the reactionary types. I don't know how you would weigh the pros/cons of such a thing.

A vaccine passport system is almost certainly going to end with some minor acts of terrorism from anti-vax and/or right wing freaks, not to mention minor assaults and murders on store clerks and so on that have the unfortunate job of having to refuse service to these freaks.
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Old 13th April 2021, 08:38 AM   #1019
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I think the administration is doing a terrible job of promoting the vaccine. I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign.

The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life.

Needless to say, the last three months have been an improvement over the previous time period, but that's a very low bar to clear.
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Old 13th April 2021, 12:37 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
... I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign.


Not when some see it as the evil libs want them to take it.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life.....
You are presuming a couple of things, one that these people are not getting the opposite messages from their peers, the right wing media, etc...

and two) that all the state legislators are in agreement with the wear a mask/get a vaccine message. It might be to their benefit to nurture the message of 'freedom'.


IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting.

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Old 13th April 2021, 01:29 PM   #1021
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Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that."

A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18.


Quote:
You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18?

COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19!
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Old 13th April 2021, 01:45 PM   #1022
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US.
....
Blank cards are already widely and legally available. It's really just an appointment card. You could buy a blank and fill it in yourself. To look right you really only need a lot number for the vaccine, or how to make one up. It's not even signed by the "shooter." Any vaccine "passport" would have to be linked to some central database that would prove validity, and the U.S. government doesn't have or want to create such a database.
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Old 13th April 2021, 03:02 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting.
I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree.

There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like:

Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen.
Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype.
P: No, something very bad will happen.
S: I don't believe it.
P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck.
S: That's not what I hear.
P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!!

In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic.

Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work.

And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out.

Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway.
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Old 13th April 2021, 03:35 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree.

There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like:

Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen.
Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype.
P: No, something very bad will happen.
S: I don't believe it.
P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck.
S: That's not what I hear.
P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!!

In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic.

Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work.

And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out.

Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway.
Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'.

We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science.

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Old 13th April 2021, 04:39 PM   #1025
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'.

We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science.
Certainly.

Part of that science is that it isn't just one type of "consumer" that has to be reached in this campaign. Making it personal is definitely part of it. Convincing people of the science is a different part. Part of the human face is convincing people that they or their loved ones or at least someone they admire is in real danger. Saying, "Your grandma could die." or "The health care providers are at risk." doesn't work unless they believe it. What we are seeing is that just telling them it's true is not enough to make them believe it.

Part of what is influencing me in this belief is that I went to my state government's web site when I started looking into vaccines. They said, "Get the safe and effective vaccine." And they said it a lot. Meanwhile, I would see news headlines, "Man dies after getting vaccine.", "Here are the side effects of the vaccine." "Vaccine may not be effective against latest mutation."

I, being who I am, would read in depth articles and note that severe side effects happened to a handful of people, out of hundreds of thousands vaccinated. I can do the math there. My chance of dying or being hospitalized from Covid is a lot higher than dying or being hospitalized from the vaccine. I also know that if the vaccine isn't 100% effective, then my chance of getting Covid is strongly dependent on how many people get vaccinated. I know these things, but my boss doesn't. He has the background necessary to understand it, but he hasn't taken the time to think it through. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get sick from the side effects. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get the disease anyway. "Common sense" tells him that this is not a great deal.

Somehow, we have to reach people and move them past "common sense" into the realm of science. I think my boss can understand it, but first he has to hear an argument that he can think about, and I know I haven't seen it. The fact that Gretchen Whitmer tells me the vaccine is "safe and effective" means something to me, but for a Republican voter, it doesn't mean much. If he knows that it isn't 100% safe or 100% effective, so he might even be put off by the message.
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Old 13th April 2021, 04:57 PM   #1026
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I don't know how the often glib Malcolm Gladwell's theory is holding up, 12 years after this article was written by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy:
Quote:
Using Gladwell's "the power of context" approach, high student traffic areas on the Chicago campus were designated as vaccination sites and highlighted with maps and arrows to direct students to these areas. Planners attributed increased seasonal flu vaccine uptake to the use of this approach in its communication strategy at the university over the last three years.
Just nagging each other to do it might be effective. I could easily see me postponing a shot out of sheer procrastination, but I live on a campus for the elderly and it would have been bad manners. Now I can tell folks I'm fully vaccinated (well, 2nd shot today).

ETA: There's also the thought of incentivizing vaccination. Pay people to get it.

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Old 13th April 2021, 05:14 PM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Armitage72
Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that."

A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18.


Quote:
You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18?

COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19!
Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?
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Old 13th April 2021, 07:13 PM   #1028
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From Worldometer:
Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
32,070,784
Deaths:
577,179

New Cases:
77,720
New Deaths:
819
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Old 13th April 2021, 10:35 PM   #1029
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?

Kellyanne is.
Quote:
“This is COVID-19, not COVID-1 folks, and so you would think the people charged with the World Health Organisation facts and figures would be on top of that.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9467561.html
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Old Yesterday, 05:41 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?

I've never really understood "I'll make myself look like a complete idiot, and it will make someone else look bad."

Many years ago, in the days of Usenet, the apparently mentally ill creator of the HYBRID RPG spent years posting rambling excerpts from their creation on rec.games.frp.super-heroes. Someone theorized that it was all an elaborate prank at the expense of the other users. Someone else argued that that would be like going out to a public place and starting to scream while defecating yourself, and doing it almost every day for years. After several years, you would then announce "Ha, ha! I tricked all of you. I was only pretending to be deranged." You've still spent years soiling yourself in public, regardless of how people feel about it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:14 PM   #1031
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There was a little squirming going on there, someone knew what the 19 meant.


It was all BS anyway, no KA, the ban on travelers from China didn't do a damn thing.
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Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM   #1032
Resume
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From Worldometer:
Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
32,149,223
Deaths:
578,092

New Cases:
78,439
New Deaths:
915
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Old Yesterday, 11:09 PM   #1033
Aridas
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This could go in a couple threads, I suppose, but here's probably the most appropriate for my purposes.

U.S. suicides dropped last year, defying pandemic expectations

Quote:
The number of U.S. suicides fell nearly 6% last year amid the coronavirus pandemic — the largest annual decline in at least four decades, according to preliminary government data.
Looks like that not in evidence right wing justification was just dealt another death blow. At least, it would be a death blow if it were actually a real concern of the people pushing it, rather than a grasping at straws justification.
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