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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 12th April 2021, 04:00 AM   #2641
Elaedith
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Helen Joyce's book is due to come out in July:

Trans: when ideology meets reality.

This is primarily dealing with the history and ideology behind the movement. It's already gone to the bestseller list in its category on Amazon in the UK on the basis of pre-orders.

Helen Joyce did several interviews about her research. One thing I found interesting was the ideology behind the focus on re-conception of 'woman' rather than 'man'.
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Old 12th April 2021, 04:14 AM   #2642
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Suppose a 16-y.o. asked for a vasectomy, a fairly safe and effective procedure which has several obvious benefits. How is that meaningfully different from the same sixteen-year-old asking for, say, cosmetic orthodontic treatment?
Why not? Supposing that the teen had been evaluated to ensure that they were of sound mind and fully understood the consequences, I don't see why a teen should not be able to take control of their own health in this way.

This is a loaded issue in the states where we have a very deranged view of sex and procreation. Even adults will often have trouble finding doctor's willing to perform sterilization surgeries on both men and women, especially if these people are unmarried and/or haven't already had children.

Suppose a 16 year old asks for an abortion, should they be allowed to get one? It's a more direct comparison I think, because pregnancy, like the effects of puberty, are of a much more urgent nature. You can no more tell a 14 year old to wait until 18 for trans affirming care than you can tell a 16 year old to defer their abortion decision. To delay is to make a medical decision.

It seems to me that there is an instinct, and perhaps not a bad one, to delay non-urgent, permanent medical decisions for children until they reach the age of maturity if possible. Sometimes these medical issues are of an time-sensitive nature that such luxuries are not possible.

Delaying trans affirming care until after 18 creates irreversible medical conditions.
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Old 12th April 2021, 04:57 AM   #2643
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
On the other hand... you want to do a medical study on children where there is no control group at all,
It is not a medical study, it is treatment.

Quote:
and a group of children who are unlikely to benefit from treatment at all are provided invasive hormonal and surgical treatments that leave them sterile and with permanently altered bodies while converting them away from being gay?
The puberty blockers are only prescribed to those who are likely to benefit, and the invasive hormonal and surgical treatments only to those who are likely to benefit and chose to go through with them.

Quote:
As long as the children in question have access to robust mental health support, no harm is caused by them going through a natural puberty.
The robust mental health support they get think harm is caused by them going through a natural puberty, as invasive hormonal and surgical treatments are later necessary to reverse what could have been prevented.
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Old 12th April 2021, 05:35 AM   #2644
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The puberty blockers are only prescribed to those who are likely to benefit
How do we know who will benefit? You seem to trust that this can be determined with accuracy. I don't.
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Old 12th April 2021, 05:37 AM   #2645
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Delaying trans affirming care until after 18 creates irreversible medical conditions.
Hormone treatments which delay or prevent puberty creates irreversible medical conditions too.
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Old 12th April 2021, 07:46 AM   #2646
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Possibly worth noting here that sexual modesty shows up of human universalsWP:

https://condor.depaul.edu/mfiddler/h...humunivers.htm

But "antonyms" (for example) are on that list too.

That doesn't mean that governments/parliaments should take antonyms into account when formulating legislation...
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Old 12th April 2021, 08:51 AM   #2647
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The video of Dr. Debra Soh's address and Q & A at the Oxford Union came out this weekend.

I haven't listened to it all yet, but it includes a lot of discussion about why it would be difficult to do a controlled study on outcomes for treatment of gender dysphoria in the current climate, and other impacts of politics on science.
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Old 12th April 2021, 09:11 AM   #2648
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I wonder what kind of data you’d get if you asked a cohort of the kids’ classmates for their evaluations of the situation. Some kids seem to be really good at pinging their classmates’ tendencies. Anecdotally, none of the trans people I knew before deciding to transition pinged as gay, to me, beforehand. One did strike me as a bit nonconforming, but not any more than I am.
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Old 12th April 2021, 09:27 AM   #2649
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Quote:
SciShow In high school biology, we learn that humans are born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and that a person’s internal and external sex organs match those chromosomes. It turns out, however, that sex isn’t that straightforward.
I found this interesting, and Hank is always a nice listen. Bit of an eye-opener re the biology, at least for me. Imagine, if you watch the video, that given we have even less a handle on the workings of the brain, what spectrum of subtle differences may also obtain in behavior based on similar biological factors. Pardon if already discussed. Came across it and thought it germane.



Aside
As for me personally, there's Emily Beecham, Jessica Lucas, or Christie Lou Stout... and then there's the rest of boring, insipid humanity. Don't dwell on that last one much, myself. To each his/her/hisn/herm own! Why should I care? Way too busy getting starry-eyed. Quick, we're aging, there's no time for this stuff!
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Old 12th April 2021, 09:29 AM   #2650
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A interesting read on topic:

https://twitter.com/sullydish/status...72615983697922

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/...trans-wars-c49

Quote:
Treatment of minors should be safe, limited and rare. A blanket ban on all medical treatment for trans kids is a crude invasion of an intensely personal decision rightly placed in the hands of doctors, parents and children. Asa Hutchinson is right. No government should have that power. And there are many cases when early intervention has been shown to help kids enormously in handling their gender dysphoria, leading to good outcomes and happier trans lives. Too many people have been helped and too many good doctors have been involved to ignore this truth.

At the same time, the use of off-label puberty blockers should not be portrayed, as it too often is, as an easily reversible pause in development while the child figures things out. These drugs have unknown long-term effects on healthy children, have no good studies behind them, affect bone density and mental and neurological development, and are, in fact, almost never reversed. They are an experiment. On children. It seems to me you need a very good reason to use them.
There is much more to it, but this is a representative sample of Andrew’s approach to the relevant issues.

Share & enjoy!
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Old 12th April 2021, 10:10 AM   #2651
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is not a medical study, it is treatment.
Given that the evidence base is "very low", as shown by the NICE report

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56601386

Quote:
The National Institute of Health and Care Excellence (NICE) said existing studies of the drugs were small and "subject to bias and confounding".
any use IS a medical study.
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Old 12th April 2021, 11:43 AM   #2652
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I wonder what kind of data you’d get if you asked a cohort of the kids’ classmates for their evaluations of the situation. Some kids seem to be really good at pinging their classmates’ tendencies. Anecdotally, none of the trans people I knew before deciding to transition pinged as gay, to me, beforehand. One did strike me as a bit nonconforming, but not any more than I am.
I mentioned this anecdote before, but I know that I remember driving a group of nine year olds to a party and the main topic of conversation was whether Olivia was "really" a girl. At age 14, Olivia decided "she" was not. She was an ultra-tomboy from the time I met her at age 6.

And she was cute. She wasn't in any way "butch". She just acted, and because of dress, looked, mighty darned boyish. She was a bit Elliot Page-ish. Attractive, but somewhat androgynous.

On the other hand, the person I knew who recently came out as trans as an adult (late twenties) seemed, and still seems to me, awfully feminine, despite the new hairstyle.

So I guess I've known two people before they came out, and one seemed extremely, I don't know the right adjective, "trans-ish"? And the other, not.
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Old 12th April 2021, 11:51 AM   #2653
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
A interesting read on topic:

https://twitter.com/sullydish/status...72615983697922

https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/...trans-wars-c49

There is much more to it, but this is a representative sample of Andrew’s approach to the relevant issues.

Share & enjoy!
Andrew Sullivan? The man is simply evil, transphobic and determined to persecute and kill trans people. Also, any empathy he does have for trans women is a function of his misogyny and hatred of women.
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Old 12th April 2021, 12:23 PM   #2654
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
That doesn't mean that governments/parliaments should take antonyms into account when formulating legislation...
From where I'm sitting, it seems relevant and interesting to point out that every human culture has to deal with the phenomenon of sexual modesty whenever any given human government chooses to regulate or redesign spaces originally intended to accommodate the phenomenon of sexual modesty. As to antonyms, I'd say that bringing them up here is the opposite of relevant and interesting.*
*
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Old 12th April 2021, 01:17 PM   #2655
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I found this interesting, and Hank is always a nice listen. Bit of an eye-opener re the biology, at least for me. Imagine, if you watch the video, that given we have even less a handle on the workings of the brain, what spectrum of subtle differences may also obtain in behavior based on similar biological factors. Pardon if already discussed. Came across it and thought it germane.
What a steaming pile of excrement (for clarity, that doesn't refer to your post but to the content of the video). Let's take a moment to debunk this pseudo-science in full.

Originally Posted by SciShow
In high school biology, we learn that humans are born with either XX or XY chromosomes, and that a person’s internal and external sex organs match those chromosomes.
No source is provided for this claim, and as several commenters on the video noted this claim is false as - while the exact curriculum can vary across different schools - plenty of high school biology teachers include genetic variations in their lessons. It's also setting up a strawman, as sex in biology is defined by gamete type and not by chromosomes.

So we have one lie and one strawman, and we haven't even clicked play yet.

Originally Posted by SciShow
In high school biology, we usually learn that the sexes in humans are fixed and concrete. Whether you're male or female is black-and-white and rooted in your DNA: your 23rd pair of chromosomes is either two X chromosomes or and X and a Y. That's it. End of story. And that's essentially what scientist thought too.
Another blatant lie. Sex chromosomal variations were already included in textbooks in the late 60s. Again, of course, no source is provided for this claim.

Originally Posted by SciShow
In fact, biologists today are saying sex is a spectrum.
The next blatant lie. Biologists today are saying sex is binary, just like biologists from half a century ago.

Originally Posted by SciShow
But in reality, none of the traits we use to discriminate between the sexes are truly binary.
And yet another lie, gamete types are strictly binary with only sperm or ova. Indeed, there is a million dollar prize (like the James Randi prize) for anyone who can demonstrate the existence of a third gamete type in human reproduction. If this youtube channel is so certain about their claims, why haven't they gone and collected it? The answer, of course, is the same as for why nobody managed to collect the James Randi prize.

In typical woo style they then try to dazzle their audience by linking to a bunch of scientific articles, obviously hoping that nobody would actually go and check these. I only bothered to go and check the first source they give, and of course it doesn't support the video's claims at all. Plenty of people in the comments have been checking their other sources too, should one be interested.

To sum up, a long-winded string of lies and strawmen packaged up in a veneer of science. And now I'm going back to my position of not posting in moderated threads, but this video was just too egregious to let pass.
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Old 12th April 2021, 01:19 PM   #2656
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I found this interesting, and Hank is always a nice listen. Bit of an eye-opener re the biology, at least for me. Imagine, if you watch the video, that given we have even less a handle on the workings of the brain, what spectrum of subtle differences may also obtain in behavior based on similar biological factors. Pardon if already discussed. Came across it and thought it germane.
He almost had it but he missed the biggest point -- that this is an example of what it means to be not designed. It's a fact that there are only two forms of sexual anatomy. But it's also a fact that nobody corresponds completely to forms.

I was also disappointed that he dismissed gender as only sociological. That precluded mentioning small-scale behaviors. And no, it doesn't require knowledge of the brain to study them; mocap would do just fine.
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Last edited by Darat; 13th April 2021 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Added missed closing quote tag
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Old 12th April 2021, 02:29 PM   #2657
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Helen Joyce's book is due to come out in July:

Trans: when ideology meets reality.

This is primarily dealing with the history and ideology behind the movement. It's already gone to the bestseller list in its category on Amazon in the UK on the basis of pre-orders.

Helen Joyce did several interviews about her research. One thing I found interesting was the ideology behind the focus on re-conception of 'woman' rather than 'man'.
Very interesting interview.

What really impressed me was the way she seemed to really understand and master the vocabulary of the gender identity movement, without buying into it. So many people just dismiss anything that sounds so foreign to people who use standard English and who tend to dismiss anything that has too much academic jargon. She really understands all the buzzwords from academia, and can truly address it the arguments, and then doesn't simply declare it all rubbish. She understands it, describes it, demonstrates that she can get her head around it, and then exposes the contradictions, and, having done so, only then declares it rubbish.
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Old 13th April 2021, 05:50 AM   #2658
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do we know who will benefit?
It depends on the individual child and their personal circumstances.

Quote:
You seem to trust that this can be determined with accuracy. I don't.
I don't either. I trust that it can be done without prescribing puberty blockers to children for whom it is not beneficial, as the "Watchful Waiting" method means many children for whom it might be beneficial do not get them. The vast majority of them go through natural puberty.
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Old 13th April 2021, 06:06 AM   #2659
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Very interesting interview.

What really impressed me was the way she seemed to really understand and master the vocabulary of the gender identity movement, without buying into it. So many people just dismiss anything that sounds so foreign to people who use standard English and who tend to dismiss anything that has too much academic jargon. She really understands all the buzzwords from academia, and can truly address it the arguments, and then doesn't simply declare it all rubbish. She understands it, describes it, demonstrates that she can get her head around it, and then exposes the contradictions, and, having done so, only then declares it rubbish.
That's all she did? She debunked some academic fluff that most people wouldn't care about? How does that have anything to do with real life?
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Old 13th April 2021, 07:18 AM   #2660
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
She really understands all the buzzwords from academia, and can truly address it the arguments, and then doesn't simply declare it all rubbish. She understands it, describes it, demonstrates that she can get her head around it, and then exposes the contradictions, and, having done so, only then declares it rubbish.
There are two people I've seen who really fit this description, and (oddly enough) they are both named Helen. Here they are together:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 13th April 2021, 07:56 AM   #2661
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There are two people I've seen who really fit this description, and (oddly enough) they are both named Helen. Here they are together:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I saw bits and pieces of that interview, too.


I do want to add one thing. My previous post referred to "the vocabulary of the gender identity movement" and declared it to be rubbish.

I want to add that I don't think the idea of a gender identity is rubbish. I think it does make sense to say that certain people have a very real sense of gender that doesn't match their sex, and we can call that very real sense a "gender identity". I don't think that's rubbish. However, so much of the associated jargon and claptrap that has been written about it, that they discuss, is rubbish.
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Old 13th April 2021, 11:49 AM   #2662
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I saw bits and pieces of that interview, too.


I do want to add one thing. My previous post referred to "the vocabulary of the gender identity movement" and declared it to be rubbish.

I want to add that I don't think the idea of a gender identity is rubbish. I think it does make sense to say that certain people have a very real sense of gender that doesn't match their sex, and we can call that very real sense a "gender identity". I don't think that's rubbish. However, so much of the associated jargon and claptrap that has been written about it, that they discuss, is rubbish.
If it's a question of whether jargon and claptrap should be rejected, I think both sides would generally say yes. But the next question is which parts of something are jargon and claptrap, given that a fair assessment has to include phrases from both sides?
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Old 13th April 2021, 04:12 PM   #2663
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Andrew Sullivan? The man is simply evil, transphobic and determined to persecute and kill trans people. Also, any empathy he does have for trans women is a function of his misogyny and hatred of women.
I genuinely can't tell if this is sarcasm or serious.

Sullivan is sometimes a bit obnoxious, but they don't strike me as being either transphobic nor misogynistic.
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Old 13th April 2021, 04:25 PM   #2664
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There's a lot of discussion about transgender people being highly persecuted and subjected to intense levels of violence. There's a common narrative of people who don't capitulate to gender ideology "wanting to kill transpeople".

I found the two following articles rather interesting in that regard:

The transgender murder epidemic that never was

Quote:
He concluded: “After reviewing the 118 cases with all available information, four appear to have been directly anti-trans-motivated.” That is four in five years – roughly one a year. Does one hate crime a year constitute an epidemic? Do the words “systematically hunted” make any sense at all?
More Trans Criminals Than Anti-Trans Crime in the UK?

Quote:
I looked for any and all reports of trans people being murdered, assaulted, or raped — and since 2008 I was able to find 12 reports total between the UK and Ireland. Of the 12, only 3 of which can be considered bonafide anti-trans hate crimes and were investigated or treated as such by police and the courts: Giovanna Del Nord, Anna Montgomery, and a protected-identity transwoman who was attacked in Yorkshire in 2020.

In contrast, I also looked for any and all reports of trans people murdering, assaulting, or raping others — and since 2008, I was able to find 48 reports. In trans rights activist-fashion, I am not debating over whether or not these people are ‘genuinely transgender,’ but rather accepting their claim however it stands. I also included the possession, creation, and/or distribution of child sexual exploitation material amongst these as I consider it to be assault against a child (as we all should) and a violent crime in general.
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Old 13th April 2021, 05:05 PM   #2665
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We've had a lot of discussion about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria among teenage girls, and there's been plenty of discussion about the effect on young female humans. We haven't really talked about ROGD as it pertains to young male humans. Partly, that's been because the increase in cases among female human teeangers has been astronomical... but there's been a considerable rise among male human teens too. And similar to female humans, there's a strong correlation with autism spectrum disorders as well as other mental health comorbidities.

I though that this multi-part article sharing the stories of parents of young male humans experiencing unexpected gender dysphoria was interesting, and well worth reading. I don't believe the series is finished, it indicates that there's at least one more installment coming. But the three parts already released are good.

When Sons Become Daughters
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Old 13th April 2021, 05:05 PM   #2666
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I wonder what kind of data you’d get if you asked a cohort of the kids’ classmates for their evaluations of the situation. Some kids seem to be really good at pinging their classmates’ tendencies. Anecdotally, none of the trans people I knew before deciding to transition pinged as gay, to me, beforehand. One did strike me as a bit nonconforming, but not any more than I am.

I had a GF in high school who thought I was cute but also thought I was gay. I showed her, lol!

I think you’d get very distorted data.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 AM   #2667
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I genuinely can't tell if this is sarcasm or serious.

Sullivan is sometimes a bit obnoxious, but they don't strike me as being either transphobic nor misogynistic.
It's what he said about himself.

Quote:
In our current culture, this somewhat complicated stance is anathema. For some trans activists, especially the younger more thoroughly woke ones, I am simply evil, beset by phobias, and determined to persecute and kill trans people, or seek their genocide. I wish this were a caricature of their views, but it isn’t. For some radical feminists, my empathy for trans women, and concern for their welfare, is regarded as a function of my misogyny and hatred of women, often wrapped up in some anti-gay, misandrist bile. I wish I were exaggerating here as well. The proportion of people in this debate who seem psychologically unstable, emotionally volatile and personally vicious seems larger than usual.
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Old Yesterday, 04:44 AM   #2668
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I genuinely can't tell if this is sarcasm or serious.

Sullivan is sometimes a bit obnoxious, but they don't strike me as being either transphobic nor misogynistic.

Re-read the article - those are his own words: this is what he claims certain trangender-rights groups consider him to be. It's quite a common literary device (though often not an intellectually-honest one: it's far from uncommon for the writer to hyperbolise/magnify/distort his/her critics' criticism of him/her, in order to sound reasonable by comparison*).

Apart from his muddled conflation of sex and gender, this particular passage is (IMO) very revealing about his skewed PoV (my bolding):

Quote:
The woke establishment — all major corporations, the federal government, the universities, all cultural institutions, the mainstream media and now the medical authorities

It's extremely interesting to me that he counts mainstream medicine as one party on his list of "the woke establishment". And it's not the first time I've come across this: it's been directly and indirectly claimed within this very thread. To me, either he doesn't understand what the word "woke" means (and he's clearly using in in pejorative sense here - which in itself is also interesting), or he is accusing the world's expert clinicians, psychiatrists, & psychologists of being either bamboozled, misled or mis-judgemental in the way they now understand transgender identity. Which (again, IMO) is a pretty breath-taking dismissal of the actual scientific experts in this field: the individuals and associations who have carefully studied this issue for decades now, and who have interacted with thousands and thousands of transgender people.

He also seems to be either unaware or uncaring that the US Federal Government - who also sit on his naughty list of "the woke establishment" (and I bet it's the first time the Federal Govt of the US has been accused of being woke...) - is having its policy goals guided significantly by current mainstream medical thinking (as are increasing numbers of other World governments). Which is just as it should be. (Unless, that is, one disagrees with the experts and the policy.).

But yeah.... other than that......


* ie: "For speaking out in favour of XYZ, I've been accused of being [insert suitably-extreme accusation here] by my opponents"....
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Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM   #2669
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I read the essay by Sullivan, and I don't see anything in it that ought to even be considered controversial.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's extremely interesting to me that he counts mainstream medicine as one party on his list of "the woke establishment". And it's not the first time I've come across this: it's been directly and indirectly claimed within this very thread. To me, either he doesn't understand what the word "woke" means (and he's clearly using in in pejorative sense here - which in itself is also interesting), or he is accusing the world's expert clinicians, psychiatrists, & psychologists of being either bamboozled, misled or mis-judgemental in the way they now understand transgender identity. Which (again, IMO) is a pretty breath-taking dismissal of the actual scientific experts in this field: the individuals and associations who have carefully studied this issue for decades now, and who have interacted with thousands and thousands of transgender people.
I think the issue is that there is a limit of medical expertise so that even the experts are not all that expert.

I haven't contributed to some of the recent scientific discussions because I don't have any real information to contribute, but I think that the large number of detransitioners suggest that there's a lot to learn, and that mainstream medicine, as it exists today, might not have much expertise to offer. Science should be judged by results, and when one of the results is that patients come to regret an irreversible treatment, that doesn't speak well for the science that led that treatment to be prescribed.

Moreover, sometimes the "leading experts" are really just the most prominent voices, and sometimes the people who have the biggest stake in a particular outcome. I'm sure that the Tavistock clinic was just overflowing with the best experts available.

In psychological realms, this is even more likely to be the case. Sigmund Freud was a leading expert. Indeed, that doesn't begin to even describe his level of reputation. However, expert or no expert, a lot of things he said, and which formed the basis for a lot of treatment, were just plain wrong.

Finally, medical expertise isn't the same as social policy. A medical expert might be able to describe the experience of living a transgender existence, but they can't answer the question of whether they ought to compete in the female sports division. That question is not one where there expertise is applicable.
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Old Yesterday, 09:36 AM   #2670
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Moreover, sometimes the "leading experts" are really just the most prominent voices, and sometimes the people who have the biggest stake in a particular outcome. I'm sure that the Tavistock clinic was just overflowing with the best experts available.

In psychological realms, this is even more likely to be the case. Sigmund Freud was a leading expert. Indeed, that doesn't begin to even describe his level of reputation. However, expert or no expert, a lot of things he said, and which formed the basis for a lot of treatment, were just plain wrong.
"Wrong" doesn't even begin to describe some of what's gone on in psychology. In terms of the whole transgender issue, are you familiar with John Money? He basically forced gender reassignment on a child. And that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what he did to that child, which later resulted in that child's tragic suicide. The only word to adequately describe Money's actions is evil. And he did it all under the guise of research, with the stamp of authority.

The dirty little secret of psychology is that a lot of severely pathological people get drawn to the field. Perhaps they want to master their own pathologies, perhaps they want power over others, I don't know. But it happens.
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Old Yesterday, 10:35 AM   #2671
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's extremely interesting to me that he counts mainstream medicine as one party on his list of "the woke establishment".
Maybe it's just the ones who introduced the concept of "chestfeeding".
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Old Yesterday, 11:17 AM   #2672
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Finally, medical expertise isn't the same as social policy. A medical expert might be able to describe the experience of living a transgender existence, but they can't answer the question of whether they ought to compete in the female sports division. That question is not one where there expertise is applicable.
To understand the patient's description. Big difference. Through all the steps, psychological and chemical and whatever, leading up to a transition, it should not hinge on anything profound whether the transition should be finalized. To a doctor well-trained in empathy, the portents of success or failure should be obvious.

Understanding the experience of a trans person, as well as potential teammates in both male and female divisions, should also be able to solve the problem for each trans person involved, separately.

Expertise cannot determine social policy. But that's only because the answer to that has already been obvious for a long time. The only good policy is no policy. Each case has to be determined on its own, without any policy interfering.
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Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM   #2673
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I genuinely can't tell if this is sarcasm or serious.

Sullivan is sometimes a bit obnoxious, but they don't strike me as being either transphobic nor misogynistic.
I was just demonstrating that I actually read the article.
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Old Yesterday, 12:20 PM   #2674
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Re-read the article - those are his own words: this is what he claims certain trangender-rights groups consider him to be.
You're half right. This is what he claims certain transgender rights groups and certain trans-exclusive radical feminists consider him to be. You missed the second group there.
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Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM   #2675
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Originally Posted by Collin237 View Post
It's what he said about himself.
Not exactly... He says that's what other people say about him.
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #2676
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Thankfully, it's not an issue at the professional level because World Rugby banned transgender players only a month ago...
I just came across an episode of the Science of Sport Podcast explaining this process in some detail:

https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/s...99693798580226

At ~33:45 or so, they finally come around to the key question:
"Does the lowering of testosterone take away the biological differences that necessitated separation in the first place?"

(Surprised if we haven't quite covered this ground before, but I did take a break for a bit so perhaps I missed it.)
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Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM   #2677
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's extremely interesting to me that he counts mainstream medicine as one party on his list of "the woke establishment". And it's not the first time I've come across this: it's been directly and indirectly claimed within this very thread. To me, either he doesn't understand what the word "woke" means (and he's clearly using in in pejorative sense here - which in itself is also interesting), or he is accusing the world's expert clinicians, psychiatrists, & psychologists of being either bamboozled, misled or mis-judgemental in the way they now understand transgender identity.
It's what's been claimed by:
* People who have detransitioned and who feel that the doctors who set them on the transition path did so either in error or negligently - Keira Bell as an example
* Parents who are observing that their children are being fast-tracked to medicalization and that comorbidities are being ignored and other mental health issues of their children aren't being appropriately treated - the article I linked regarding ROGD among male children contains several examples.
* Clinicians who feel that they are being pressured by their management and by lobbyists to conform to affirmation only and that efforts to dig deeper and disambiguate gender dysphoria as an effect of an underlying trauma or disorder from gender dysphoria as an innate cognitive disconnect between mental perception and sexed body - for example, the MANY doctors and therapists who left Tavistock and GIDS

Bear in mind that "medical experts" of the past supported conversion therapy for homosexuality, repressed memories of childhood molestation, and ritual satanic abuse. Sometimes the opinions of "medical experts" should be questioned.
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Old Today, 02:05 AM   #2678
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's what's been claimed by:
* People who have detransitioned and who feel that the doctors who set them on the transition path did so either in error or negligently - Keira Bell as an example
* Parents who are observing that their children are being fast-tracked to medicalization and that comorbidities are being ignored and other mental health issues of their children aren't being appropriately treated - the article I linked regarding ROGD among male children contains several examples.
* Clinicians who feel that they are being pressured by their management and by lobbyists to conform to affirmation only and that efforts to dig deeper and disambiguate gender dysphoria as an effect of an underlying trauma or disorder from gender dysphoria as an innate cognitive disconnect between mental perception and sexed body - for example, the MANY doctors and therapists who left Tavistock and GIDS

Bear in mind that "medical experts" of the past supported conversion therapy for homosexuality, repressed memories of childhood molestation, and ritual satanic abuse. Sometimes the opinions of "medical experts" should be questioned.
We're not denying that people's lives are ruined by medical malpractice. We're not denying that many doctors are falsely called experts. What we're objecting to is calling it "woke". That word can mean a lot of things, some of them good. Using a partly good word to describe evil, is a monstrous misdirection.
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