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Old 28th July 2020, 07:59 AM   #161
Leftus
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
At my high school, at least, they didn't spend any time teaching you how to write essays. They just told you to write one, and graded you on the results.
Odds are, you were taught, just before high school. Most schools teach a very basic style of "tell them what you are going to tell them, make your case in the next 3 to 5 paragraphs, tell them what you told them"

If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.


I would also suppose that you were never taught addition in high school either. Same reason.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Given the amysmal grasp of the English language of so man Australians, I have absolutely no problem with compulsory English to year 12.
From what I can tell, this is true of pretty much all native English speakers through out the Anglosphere. It seems the only people that actually have a grasp of English are the better educated South Asians.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:46 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
My understanding is that the data shows the opposite is true: there is a positive correlation between children's scores in science subjects and their scores in arts subjects. So those who do well in science do better (on average) in arts than those who do poorly in science, and vice versa.
Certainly at my school the "brainy kids" as a whole excelled across the board (apart from PE) I'd say the person with the highest intelligence (ended up doing maths at Cambridge) was by far the best artist in the entire school, one of the few people I have ever been jealous of - her pencil and pen and ink work was beyond exquisite . And all of us doing 3 sciences (long reason why that was unusual at my school) were all top in the creative studies we were taking.
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Old 28th July 2020, 10:14 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Odds are, you were taught, just before high school.
Definitely not. My understanding of the word "essay" before high school was that it was the 500 words you had to write about why you shouldn't chew gum in school while you sat in detention after you were caught chewing gum in school.

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If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.
Sure, some classes required an outline prior to the completed work. That was of some help, but it's not like you went back-and-forth with the teacher discussing how it could be improved.
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Old 28th July 2020, 10:17 AM   #165
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English, in school should be Mandatory
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:22 AM   #166
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I'm so damn old we didn't write "essays", we just wrote themes!
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
English, in school should be Mandatory English in school should be mandatory.
C-
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:43 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
C-
Does one lose points over Oxford commas? Would an additional comma after 'school' have redeemed him? I'm concerned about his GPA.
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:54 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does one lose points over Oxford commas? Would an additional comma after 'school' have redeemed him? I'm concerned about his GPA.
Commas are unnecessary in that sentence. Hence the C- instead of a straight C.

Also, stop helicoptering, tiger mom.
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:56 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Commas are unnecessary in that sentence. Hence the C- instead of a straight C.

Also, stop helicoptering, tiger mom.
Okay Karen
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Old 28th July 2020, 03:18 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does one lose points over Oxford commas? Would an additional comma after 'school' have redeemed him? I'm concerned about his GPA.
Thatís no Oxford comma!
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Old 28th July 2020, 03:44 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Thatís no Oxford comma!
The second (missing) one would be, wouldn't it?
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:12 PM   #173
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From your link -
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
"Nobody Don't Like Me."
Per Harry Belafonte in "Mama Look a Bubu":

Quote:
"I wonder why nobody don't like me
Or is it the fact that I'm ugly?"
It's incorrect in some versions of English, and correct in various dialects. What matters is not being correct but being consistent, for the sake of the reader.

When adults don't understand each other, their children will play and make up their own dialect. Such "pidgin" or creole languages fascinate me.

The following four-minute Hugh Laurie clip is satire, but this is how it feels to be a high school English teacher sometimes:

ABOFAL lecture on Romeo & Juliet

Last edited by Minoosh; 28th July 2020 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:19 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The second (missing) one would be, wouldn't it?
No, In the sentence "English, in primary school, high school, and college, should be mandatory." the fourth comma would be an Oxford. Although this particular sentence would be better if the clause was set off using en dashes, here substituted with hyphens because of course they are: "English - in primary school, high school, and college - should be mandatory. In fact, the whole sentence should be rearranged: "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school, and college." In that sentence, the last comma is an Oxford comma as it precedes "and". The same sentence without the Oxford comma would be "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school and college."
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Last edited by arthwollipot; 28th July 2020 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Corrected pluralisation
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The second (missing) one would be, wouldn't it?
I'm a frayed knot.

Link
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 28th July 2020, 04:55 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm a frayed knot.

Link
Ooh, a compound homophone! Loving it!
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:55 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Odds are, you were taught, just before high school. Most schools teach a very basic style of "tell them what you are going to tell them, make your case in the next 3 to 5 paragraphs, tell them what you told them"

If you went your entire educational career without ever having to provide an outline, or a rough draft, I would be impressed.


I would also suppose that you were never taught addition in high school either. Same reason.

Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:56 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm so damn old we didn't write "essays", we just wrote themes!
A+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
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Old 28th July 2020, 08:58 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
It wasn't the teachers, it was the curriculum. The teachers were fine. They did exactly what they were required to do.
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Old 28th July 2020, 09:55 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?
Outline? Three by five cards? bibliography? You're kidding, right?

Quote:
Maybe some had better teachers than others.
Some of us apparently had no teachers.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:06 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Certainly at my school the "brainy kids" as a whole excelled across the board (apart from PE) I'd say the person with the highest intelligence (ended up doing maths at Cambridge) was by far the best artist in the entire school, one of the few people I have ever been jealous of - her pencil and pen and ink work was beyond exquisite . And all of us doing 3 sciences (long reason why that was unusual at my school) were all top in the creative studies we were taking.
I suppose I'm the exception that proves that rule

Then again, taking three sciences, two languages as well as the three mandatory 'O' levels (Maths, English Language and English Literature) and Religious Instruction (still mandatory back then) meant that there wasn't time for creative subjects (the way scheduling worked you simply had a choice between Geography and History) for those of us taking three sciences ([Physicist]If we're being very broadminded and are considering Chemistry and Biology to be sciences [/Physicist]).
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:04 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Outline? Three by five cards? bibliography? You're kidding, right?

Some of us apparently had no teachers.
Sadly, no. I always hated doing outlines. It's just not how I've ever written anything. I would argue that it's just not the way I think. While I may have turned in an outline, I don't think I've ever used one. Most of the time, the outline was submitted after I had the paper effectively written. I do remember 3x5's but not their function. I don't think I've ever submitted a bibliography except with the paper.

Thankfully, that part of my life has been forgotten, on the whole. The only writing I do now are white papers and other proposals that go nowhere.
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Old 29th July 2020, 06:56 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Sadly, no. I always hated doing outlines. It's just not how I've ever written anything. I would argue that it's just not the way I think. While I may have turned in an outline, I don't think I've ever used one. Most of the time, the outline was submitted after I had the paper effectively written. I do remember 3x5's but not their function. I don't think I've ever submitted a bibliography except with the paper.

Thankfully, that part of my life has been forgotten, on the whole. The only writing I do now are white papers and other proposals that go nowhere.

I certainly do use outlines in technical writing, but I like to get a lot of thoughts on paper first. To do that, I find it helps to be slightly drunk so I can just get a lot out without trying for perfection. Once I have a lot of words, things can be cleaned up and organized. Then later, when I and/or my co-authors decide that the whole structure stinks, completely reorganized with many parts rewritten.


At least twice while doing research I've come across something and thought "wow, this is really well written", then realized that I had written it. It never looks very good to me immediately after writing it though.
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Old 29th July 2020, 07:57 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Looks like some paid more attention in school than others.

State your thesis, support your thesis with at least three paragraphs, and then restate your thesis.

Nobody had to write a term paper and hand in their outline, their three by five cards, and their bibliography? Before they finished their paper?

Maybe some had better teachers than others.
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Outline? Three by five cards? bibliography? You're kidding, right?

Some of us apparently had no teachers.
You know, I vaguely recall having to do that! But only vaguely, it's been well over fifty years.
I had one English teacher whose obsession was book reports. That was pretty much all we did. There was an extremely proscribed format for them. I got marked down on the first one for not having the required style of spiral notebook. Had to get the correct notebook, recopy it, and turn it in the next day, late.
She was a close friend of the insane librarian. They both had the same wildly artificial red hair.
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:35 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
YI had one English teacher whose obsession was book reports. That was pretty much all we did.
Book reports were by far the majority of the writing I did in high school, and pretty much the only writing I did in grade school and junior high.

Quote:
There was an extremely proscribed format for them. I got marked down on the first one for not having the required style of spiral notebook. Had to get the correct notebook, recopy it, and turn it in the next day, late.
She was a close friend of the insane librarian. They both had the same wildly artificial red hair.
I remember one junior high teacher who wouldn't accept book reports without a clear plastic cover. Of course on the day they were due there was some kid selling those covers at 300% mark-up.
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Old 30th July 2020, 07:25 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I certainly do use outlines in technical writing, but I like to get a lot of thoughts on paper first. To do that, I find it helps to be slightly drunk so I can just get a lot out without trying for perfection. Once I have a lot of words, things can be cleaned up and organized. Then later, when I and/or my co-authors decide that the whole structure stinks, completely reorganized with many parts rewritten.
I tend to not put anything fixed until the paper is at least half written in my head. I know what I want to say, and I know my major points. I've always written that way. When in school, it caused problems with teachers who had their method and demanded things like first drafts, outlines, revisions, and the list goes on. The closest I've ever been to a draft, was when I was writing something, I lay out my case, only to find my thesis wasn't fully supported. So I did the only logical thing at the time, I reworked the thesis statement. No way was I rewriting the supporting points. It's not like the words on the paper were going to forever hold me to a position.
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Old 30th July 2020, 08:34 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
There was an extremely proscribed format for them.
Only because this is a thread about learning English:

"Proscribed" means "prohibited". The word you want is "prescribed".

Also, "extremely" isn't such a great adverb to pair with "prescribed". The adverb connotes a continuum, but a prescription is more or less a binary thing. If you want to indicate how vehement they were in enforcing the requirements, try "strictly".
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Old 30th July 2020, 10:59 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Only because this is a thread about learning English:

"Proscribed" means "prohibited". The word you want is "prescribed".

Also, "extremely" isn't such a great adverb to pair with "prescribed". The adverb connotes a continuum, but a prescription is more or less a binary thing. If you want to indicate how vehement they were in enforcing the requirements, try "strictly".
Putting the E in the ISF.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:01 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, In the sentence "English, in primary school, high school, and college, should be mandatory." the fourth third comma would be an Oxford. Although this particular sentence would be better if the clause was set off using en dashes, here substituted with hyphens because of course they are: "English - in primary school, high school, and college - should be mandatory. In fact, the whole sentence should be rearranged: "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school, and college." In that sentence, the last comma is an Oxford comma as it precedes "and". The same sentence without the Oxford comma would be "English should be mandatory in primary school, high school and college."
Very well done, I think only your counting was lacking.
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Old 30th July 2020, 05:39 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Very well done, I think only your counting was lacking.
Aargh, only nine out of ten!

Still good enough for a pass.
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Old 30th July 2020, 07:27 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Only because this is a thread about learning English:
But is it?

The OP states:-
Originally Posted by =Robin View Post
I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.

I had no problem with English when it was just about spelling, grammar, and comprehension. But trying to get into the mind of T. S. Eliot (or what the teacher imagined was in his mind) is a different thing.

Of course today, with another 50 years of life experience to boost my confidence, I would find it much easier - though I doubt the teacher would like what I wrote...
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Old 3rd August 2020, 05:28 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In Australian high schools, mathematics is not compulsory in the last two years of high school, but English is.

This has always struck me as a highly discriminatory practice as some of us will never be able to get a decent result in this subject, while at the same time we are capable of getting top marks in subjects such as mathematics or languages.

I have no objection to English being compulsory in the lower years of high school, but our marks in the final year of high school have a strong influence in what we will be able to do in life.

I am pretty sure that those of us who will never be able to write an essay on what TS Eliot meant by his poems have a great deal to contribute to society and should not have this built in disadvantage at the most important year of our schooling.

I would be interested in hearing other perspectives on this.
It isn't so much the number of English classes one is required to sit but more about the quality. Take a look at the U.S. where the danger is apparent.
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Old 5th August 2020, 11:35 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Book reports were by far the majority of the writing I did in high school, and pretty much the only writing I did in grade school and junior high.

I remember one junior high teacher who wouldn't accept book reports without a clear plastic cover. Of course on the day they were due there was some kid selling those covers at 300% mark-up.
Maybe that was their assignment for a business class? Actually I doubt it. Few junior high teachers are capable of coming up with anything that practical.
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Old 5th August 2020, 11:41 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The second (missing) one would be, wouldn't it?
I don't think so. As I understand it, an Oxford comma is a comma in a list before the word "and", or "or" that some styles consider to be incorrect.
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