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Old 14th September 2018, 10:13 AM   #81
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Might have been said already, but might the ability to sue foreign gov'ts just be a generic provision being played up to satisfy part of the base? As in even Graham doesn't really believe it but is talking the talk, knowing no meritorious suit will ever come of it?
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:26 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Might have been said already, but might the ability to sue foreign gov'ts just be a generic provision being played up to satisfy part of the base? As in even Graham doesn't really believe it but is talking the talk, knowing no meritorious suit will ever come of it?
This. I'd say Congress isn't doing trutherism, they're doing politics. Which often looks very similar to CT, but is done by the establishment, rather than those resiling against the establishment.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:48 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Ahem.



You even replied to this post.
Sorry, I'm losing track of which thread is which...
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:32 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think Atta had a driver's license that said he was Oscar Diaz?
No, he had a DL with his own name on it--the pissed-off looking photo of him that has been used since Day 1 is from his Florida Driver's License.
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Well, the Saudi embassy, lead by Prince Bandar, is implied in several lines of evidence. Prince Bandar is not one of the 15,000 also-theres, he is the long-time ambassador to the USA, and later head of the Saudi intelligence system. He was surely top-50 among the Princes and government officials. Plus, he is often portrayed as a good personal friend of GW Bush - who surely wasn't good friend with 15,000+ members of the royal family.
The Saudis have a ton of money, and so they use it to buy influence. I am sure that one of the many ways Bandar buys influence is that he funds a lot of Saudi-in-America charities. This ensures that the royal family will have friends in the US Saudi communities.

The guy who got al-Mihdhar his apartment was a Saudi named Omar al-Bayoumi. He was trying to start a mosque in San Diego, and hence had been funded by the Saudis to the tune of about $400K. He got them a unit at the complex he was living at and paid their first month's rent, but he was promptly reimbursed, according to this article which goes into excellent detail on the San Diego connection.

Quote:
The 28 pages also mention that Bayoumi received $400,000 to start a new mosque in San Diego. According to U-T archives, Bayoumi was the building maintenace manager for Kurdish mosque in El Cajon that was created through a gift from a Saudi citizen, not the Saudi government.

The community told the U-T at the time that it was common for wealthy Saudis to offer such help to other Muslims because of the emphasis on charity in the religion, so the donation was not considered suspicious.

Bayoumi moved to the U.K. before 9/11. He was detained there and interviewed.

Bill Gore, who was the special agent-in-charge for the San Diego FBI field office at the time, said he sent agents to the U.K. to talk with Bayoumi, and he concluded that Bayoumi did not know the true intentions of the hijackers for being in the country.
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Old 15th September 2018, 01:40 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Sorry, I'm losing track of which thread is which...
No worries- it happens.
Anyway, we're in agreement about Al Qaeda and the House of Saud, which is the main thing.
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Old 27th September 2018, 10:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The Saudis have a ton of money, and so they use it to buy influence. I am sure that one of the many ways Bandar buys influence is that he funds a lot of Saudi-in-America charities. This ensures that the royal family will have friends in the US Saudi communities.
Well said.
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Old 27th September 2018, 11:47 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Is the consensus that Senator Graham is right?
September 11, 2016 article, what took so long to find it?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=231395

Bob is selling books, was Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee on 9/11. Did you buy one of his books? Guess if someone was the Chair of the Senate Intelligence, they might blame Bush as a smoke screen since they were Chair of the Senate Intelligence. Best defence...

Bob's book sales declining again back in September 11, 2016. Did he do this in 2013/12 and earlier? Free publicity for books?

When did Bob write his first 9/11 associated book, and was one fiction?

As Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee on 9/11, can he explain his failure to stop 9/11?

Bob has books to sell, "loved" the Bush administration, and was Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee - Bob is right, publicity increases sales, or what.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you think congress was engaging in "trutherism" when they passed the law that "was drafted specifically to allow families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks to sue Saudi Arabia"?
This is a good example of go chase the bait fallacy please remain on topic instead of derailing. The topic is about Saudi Arabia funding the attacks not everything in between.

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Old 3rd October 2018, 01:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It wasn't a project of the Saudi government, but the funding for the attack certainly seems to have come from the Saudi government, albeit indirectly.
You keep saying that, but you have yet to establish this as fact.
Given that your own link mentions the rift between the Saudi government and Bin Laden, and given also that it doesn't take much research to confirm this, on what are you basing this claim?
If it were true, it would mean the Saudi government was basically acting against its best interests, and for no obvious benefit.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 09:56 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You keep saying that, but you have yet to establish this as fact.
Given that your own link mentions the rift between the Saudi government and Bin Laden, and given also that it doesn't take much research to confirm this, on what are you basing this claim?
If it were true, it would mean the Saudi government was basically acting against its best interests, and for no obvious benefit.
I'm not sure how united or coherent the House of Saud's view of their "best interests" is. My understanding is that there are more than a few within and outside the Saudi monarchy, religious establishment, leading business families (like, say, the bin Ladens), and the sprawling Saudi government itself - military, intelligence, and security forces - who, for one reason or another, (whether it was genuine religious fanaticism, Machiavellian power plays and palace intrigue, political resentment of America, Israel, etc. and "foreign influence" and alleged "meddling in Saudi affairs", a myopic and cowardly "insurance policy" against Salafi-Wahhabi Islamist jihadists, including such powerful and influential figures as Osama bin Laden; or some combination of the aforementioned factors), supported to one extent or another the activities of bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and the broader ideological, educational, financial, and indeed, operational waters in which the jihadists swam. Certainly many ordinary Saudis admire the "Cause!"

Remember, Osama bin Laden was the Saudi golden boy in the 80s against the USSR, and supported heavily by Saudi as well as Pakistani intelligence, among many other state and nonstate actors in the Gulf through "charitable" donations. Osama knew where the bodies were buried (literally, in some cases!). He knew many of the dirty secrets of the Saudi royals, Saudi clerics, and indeed, the Saudi business elite - he was an extremely and apparently sincerely devout and fanatically religious scion of the last of these.

The golden boy with the keys to the Kingdom - until he soured on the Kingdom. But even if the House of Saud took away with the keys, they seem to have neglected to change the locks. Hence, the apparent "leave us alone, and we'll discreetly protect you in Afghanistan" policy of the Saudis from the mid-90s up until 9/11 (they were one of three governments, other than Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates, to recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan before 9/11, for God's sake. They cannot possibly have been naive as to what they were doing, or whom they were dealing with). And they did this in a way that gave them some degree of plausible deniability. Key word being "some."

Needless to say, this bit them in the rear end.

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Old 5th October 2018, 11:11 AM   #92
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Let's keep this thread going.
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:17 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Let's keep this thread going.
Who will fund it?
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Old 5th October 2018, 11:29 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Who will fund it?
I dunno, maybe we should create a GoFundMe page. Raise more money than AE911Truth or whatever those crackpots call themselves.
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Old 5th October 2018, 04:02 PM   #95
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I heard in passing that apparently the US Senate just passed a Resolution calling upon the government to declassify tens of thousands of pages about Saudi Arabia's connections to 9/11 as far as possible.
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Old 5th October 2018, 10:50 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I heard in passing that apparently the US Senate just passed a Resolution calling upon the government to declassify tens of thousands of pages about Saudi Arabia's connections to 9/11 as far as possible.
Mmmmm... potentially interesting but....

It may simply be political grandstanding. You can bet that "declassify...as far as possible" is one of the base principles of the relevant statutes.

Tho it could act as a political hint to the bureaucrats to do what they should have been doing anyway.

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Old 6th October 2018, 01:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
I'm not sure how united or coherent the House of Saud's view of their "best interests" is. My understanding is that there are more than a few within and outside the Saudi monarchy, religious establishment, leading business families (like, say, the bin Ladens), and the sprawling Saudi government itself - military, intelligence, and security forces - who, for one reason or another, (whether it was genuine religious fanaticism, Machiavellian power plays and palace intrigue, political resentment of America, Israel, etc. and "foreign influence" and alleged "meddling in Saudi affairs", a myopic and cowardly "insurance policy" against Salafi-Wahhabi Islamist jihadists, including such powerful and influential figures as Osama bin Laden; or some combination of the aforementioned factors), supported to one extent or another the activities of bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and the broader ideological, educational, financial, and indeed, operational waters in which the jihadists swam. Certainly many ordinary Saudis admire the "Cause!"

Remember, Osama bin Laden was the Saudi golden boy in the 80s against the USSR, and supported heavily by Saudi as well as Pakistani intelligence, among many other state and nonstate actors in the Gulf through "charitable" donations. Osama knew where the bodies were buried (literally, in some cases!). He knew many of the dirty secrets of the Saudi royals, Saudi clerics, and indeed, the Saudi business elite - he was an extremely and apparently sincerely devout and fanatically religious scion of the last of these.

The golden boy with the keys to the Kingdom - until he soured on the Kingdom. But even if the House of Saud took away with the keys, they seem to have neglected to change the locks. Hence, the apparent "leave us alone, and we'll discreetly protect you in Afghanistan" policy of the Saudis from the mid-90s up until 9/11 (they were one of three governments, other than Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates, to recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan before 9/11, for God's sake. They cannot possibly have been naive as to what they were doing, or whom they were dealing with). And they did this in a way that gave them some degree of plausible deniability. Key word being "some."

Needless to say, this bit them in the rear end.
I agree with a lot of this, but I think it's slightly missing the point.

That the House of Saud is large and divergent is not in question. However, the thrust of my post was about the Saudi government, funding the attacks as official, though covert, government policy. To alienate America, Saudi Arabia's key ally, would seem to be entirely counterproductive, and to encourage the extremist elements in Saudi society would also be of little benefit to the Saudi government. It would merely serve to destabilise the country and threaten the rule of the House of Saud.
To give an example, Pakistan has been playing a very similar double game. They have been ostensibly involved in the fight against terrorism, tacitly allowing US drone strikes in the tribal areas, and publicly condemning jihadism, whilst at the same time letting those same jihadists shelter in Pakistan, and aiding and abettting the Taliban in Afghanistan, and other extremist networks in both countries. This allows them to obtain millions of dollars in US aid, and at the same time fulfills their aim of grooming Afghanistan as an ally in their war with India.
Saudi Arabia is unlikely to adopt a similar policy, because there is, as far as I can see, no benefit to be had from such a double game.
With regard to Saudi recognition of the Taliban government, it is my understanding that they were trying to extradite Bin Laden from Afghanistan, and were hoping that, along with their support of the Taliban's fundamentalist form of Islam, that they could use closer ties with their regime to facilitate this aim. I'm not sure the Saudis were trying to protect him: he had fallen from grace some time prior to 9/11, and I see no benefit to them to let him stay at large. If they had wanted to protect their dirty secrets, that would have been much easier for them to do if Bin Laden had disappeared into a Saudi prison.
Finally, I'm not sure how much support Al Qaeda had or has from ordinary Saudis. I spent 4 years there, and, while they were quite open about their admiration for Hitler, for example, not one person expressed anything similar about Al Qaeda. In fact, many of the students I taught were learning Englsih for the express purpose of escaping the repressive Saudi society they had been born into, and living in the States. Obviously, there are pockets of extreme jihadism and fundamentalism there, but I never encountered any, and so am really not sure how widespread it is.
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Old 6th October 2018, 02:58 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It wasn't a project of the Saudi government, but the funding for the attack certainly seems to have come from the Saudi government, albeit indirectly.
That's saying nothing. The Spanish government indirectly funded my car many years ago, when I was receiving the unemployment pay back in these days. The tricky part here is to prove that the Saudi government had the intention to fund the attacks when they funded those charities.
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Old 6th October 2018, 01:30 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
That's saying nothing. The Spanish government indirectly funded my car many years ago, when I was receiving the unemployment pay back in these days. The tricky part here is to prove that the Saudi government had the intention to fund the attacks when they funded those charities.
Or indeed that the Saudi Embassy, personified by Prince Bandar, the Ambassador, had the intention of funding and supporting a terrorist attack when they funded and supported Saudi participants in the terrorist attack. Saudi Arabia is extremely rich, and may have had a general policy of looking after or supporting their countrymen and -women in the USA generously for the flimsiest of reasons, or no reasons at all. Someone would have to convince me that the extent of the alleged support was unusual, or that the reasons stated were unusual.

This is all very worthy of investigation - and possibly HAS been investigated, but classified, at great length. Seeing the result declassified ... I find no immediate reason not to, even if it gives Truthers more tens of thousands of pages to misconstrue and quote out of context.
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Old 6th October 2018, 04:44 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Or indeed that the Saudi Embassy, personified by Prince Bandar, the Ambassador, had the intention of funding and supporting a terrorist attack when they funded and supported Saudi participants in the terrorist attack. Saudi Arabia is extremely rich, and may have had a general policy of looking after or supporting their countrymen and -women in the USA generously for the flimsiest of reasons, or no reasons at all. Someone would have to convince me that the extent of the alleged support was unusual, or that the reasons stated were unusual.

This is all very worthy of investigation - and possibly HAS been investigated, but classified, at great length. Seeing the result declassified ... I find no immediate reason not to, even if it gives Truthers more tens of thousands of pages to misconstrue and quote out of context.
It's my experience that no CTists actually read FBI or CIA documents. They'll quote other CTists who think they know what they say (The NIST WTC#7, and Twin Towers reports are perfect examples).

By the way, the Hulu mini-series "The Looming Tower" is excellent. It details the intelligence failure brilliantly, both the CIA and FBI's points of view get a fair hearing, but the story is definitely written from the FBI's New York Office's point of view. Our weird relationship with the Saudis is emphasized at every key plot development. Great work, but a very frustrating show to watch.
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Old 7th October 2018, 02:27 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
It's my experience that no CTists actually read FBI or CIA documents. They'll quote other CTists who think they know what they say (The NIST WTC#7, and Twin Towers reports are perfect examples).

By the way, the Hulu mini-series "The Looming Tower" is excellent. It details the intelligence failure brilliantly, both the CIA and FBI's points of view get a fair hearing, but the story is definitely written from the FBI's New York Office's point of view. Our weird relationship with the Saudis is emphasized at every key plot development. Great work, but a very frustrating show to watch.
Haven't seen the TV series, but I highly recommend the book.
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:08 AM   #102
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Was it in the Saudi government's strategic interest to "disappear" a prominent Washington Post columnist under the noses of the Turkish government?

Don't underestimate the stupidity of an inbred royal family, particularly in certain cases - of which there are plenty in the House of Saud, considering its thousands/tens of thousands of princes...
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Old 16th October 2018, 08:55 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Was it in the Saudi government's strategic interest to "disappear" a prominent Washington Post columnist under the noses of the Turkish government?

Don't underestimate the stupidity of an inbred royal family, particularly in certain cases - of which there are plenty in the House of Saud, considering its thousands/tens of thousands of princes...
Perhaps they looked at the significant lack of solid action after the Russians poisoned the Skripals and thought they could do the same.
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