ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th December 2018, 12:27 PM   #3281
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,215
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
He may also have had his situational awareness compromised by being high.

His situational awareness? While sitting in his living room watching TV? You fault him? How 'bout her situational awareness, like identifying the target and the location before killing somebody?

Imagine the circumstances: You're sitting at home with your lights off, maybe even snoozing, and your front door bursts open, and somebody you can't even recognize because she's backlit by the light from the hall screams "Don't move! Put your hands behind your head! Don't move! Get on the floor!," and then when you say "What the f....?" blows you away.

You think there's any legal, moral or practical justification for that? It's astonishing that so many people are reaching so desperately to defend a rogue cop who wasn't even acting as a cop when she killed a man.

And we don't even know if she gave him any warning or asked any questions. She had plenty of time to concoct a copspeak story that put her in the best light.

Last edited by Bob001; 29th December 2018 at 12:32 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 02:22 PM   #3282
CoulsdonUK
Graduate Poster
 
CoulsdonUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
He may also have had his situational awareness compromised by being high.
What would be your description of a police officer with four years of experience driving to the wrong floor of a garage then subsequently walking down the wrong hallway missing various door numbers which should have indicated she was on the wrong floor, completely missing a bright red door matt “somehow” gaining access and the first thing she does is fire two shots then after checks the door number?
CoulsdonUK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 02:47 PM   #3283
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
What would be your description of a police officer with four years of experience driving to the wrong floor of a garage then subsequently walking down the wrong hallway missing various door numbers which should have indicated she was on the wrong floor, completely missing a bright red door matt “somehow” gaining access and the first thing she does is fire two shots then after checks the door number?
Nail on head. The fault is entirely with her. He did nothing wrong.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 03:51 PM   #3284
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,323
I've sort of given up reading this thread, but just must add to this last bit of argument. If you subscribe even a little bit to the principle that applies, especially in Texas, that a man's home is his castle, and if, as is abundantly obvious no matter what other things you doubt, the cop was intruding into the man's home, it seems to me that by definition, a man at home not engaged in a crime could not have been in the wrong. He had the right to be drunk, the right to be confused, the right to be unresponsive, the right to be nasty, even the right to be downright insane in his own home. No matter how much you can mitigate her guilt or excuse her error, although you might diminish her guilt that does not diminish his right. He was entitled to safety in his home, to the extent that he was legally entitled even to kill her. His actions may in retrospect have been regrettable, but the guilt is all hers. He had no obligation.

I'm not against some consideration for her error, fatigue, confusion, and subsequent remorse as a mitigation for punishment. But it's wrong to do so in some way that transfers responsibility to the homeowner, and I think it's a terrible mistake to do so. You can find all sorts of mitigation for a crime, but transferring any of the responsibility for her actions to him would be like making a window responsible for the actions of a vandal who breaks it.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 06:35 PM   #3285
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You can find all sorts of mitigation for a crime, but transferring any of the responsibility for her actions to him would be like making a window responsible for the actions of a vandal who breaks it.
Spot on.

And some people say "analogies never work".
__________________
Proud Dirtbag Leftist.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 08:29 PM   #3286
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
What would be your description of a police officer with four years of experience driving to the wrong floor of a garage then subsequently walking down the wrong hallway missing various door numbers which should have indicated she was on the wrong floor, completely missing a bright red door matt “somehow” gaining access and the first thing she does is fire two shots then after checks the door number?
Texas
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 08:30 PM   #3287
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Nail on head. The fault is entirely with her. He did nothing wrong.
Who claimed that he did?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 08:33 PM   #3288
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
See what I mean Trebuchet? It makes not a whit of a difference to her taking her time to unholster her gun, either at the door or just inside Jean's apartment, decide to kill someone, take aim and fire, take time again to aim and fire again but he was high so....
So.... What?
Or are you just getting some excercise by leaping to conclusions?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2018, 10:40 PM   #3289
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 20,705
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
He may also have had his situational awareness compromised by being high.
I realize what you mean, regarding Jean noticing what Guyger was doing, but in this thread it will be interpreted as blaming Jean.

At any rate, I think Guyger would have smelled recently burning MJ and likely mentioned it. She didn't as far as I know.

So I don't think MJ will be any factor.

It was out in the open, the police noticed it, so it got put on the paperwork. It needed to be collected.

Otherwise, it won't be any factor in the case.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 02:08 AM   #3290
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,535
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
So.... What?
Or are you just getting some excercise by leaping to conclusions?
What conclusion are you saying I'm jumping to?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 02:09 AM   #3291
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,535
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I realize what you mean, regarding Jean noticing what Guyger was doing, but in this thread it will be interpreted as blaming Jean.

At any rate, I think Guyger would have smelled recently burning MJ and likely mentioned it. She didn't as far as I know.

So I don't think MJ will be any factor.

It was out in the open, the police noticed it, so it got put on the paperwork. It needed to be collected.

Otherwise, it won't be any factor in the case.
What difference does it make in regards to her intentional shooting?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 02:53 AM   #3292
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Who claimed that he did?
From the reaction to your comment, it must be you. I accept your words may have been chosen poorly and you created an unintended position.

My attitude is that in his house he can do anything he wants. There is nothing he could have been doing or not doing that would shift the blame in any shape or form to him.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 08:10 AM   #3293
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,323
I realize that Distracted1's comment was not an assignment of blame, but it at least hinted at a redistribution of responsibility. The two things overlap but they're not quite the same (which is why there is such a thing as manslaughter), and I think it's important to note that even if one can find that the victim missed an opportunity to save himself it doesn't mitigate the shooter's responsibility. Analyzing what happened and even retroactively rewriting it to figure out what went wrong and what might have gone better is an interesting exercise, and may be useful, but not for deciding the fault for what actually happened.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 09:09 AM   #3294
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
.... Analyzing what happened and even retroactively rewriting it to figure out what went wrong and what might have gone better is an interesting exercise, and may be useful, but not for deciding the fault for what actually happened.
In such an analysis, I think that the householder should be allowed to be doing anything he/she wants in his/her house. There should be no instance of, well if the householder had not been....he/she would not have been shot.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 10:09 AM   #3295
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,323
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In such an analysis, I think that the householder should be allowed to be doing anything he/she wants in his/her house. There should be no instance of, well if the householder had not been....he/she would not have been shot.
Yes, that's my point. There are always ways you can analyze a situation and maybe learn for the future how to survive better in an unjust world, but they do not retroactively make a wrong less wrong.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 11:13 AM   #3296
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Yes, that's my point. There are always ways you can analyze a situation and maybe learn for the future how to survive better in an unjust world, but they do not retroactively make a wrong less wrong.
My analysis would be she was an idiot and needs to go away for a long time in prison as a very public deterrent and reminder for the police (and anyone with a gun) to check they are in the right place.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 11:57 AM   #3297
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 20,705
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What difference does it make in regards to her intentional shooting?
I think only Guyger's defense attorneys will consider that question.
I doubt anyone else will try to bring the MJ into the case.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 12:14 PM   #3298
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 20,705
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
My analysis would be she was an idiot and needs to go away for a long time in prison as a very public deterrent and reminder for the police (and anyone with a gun) to check they are in the right place.
Well, the police do bust into the wrong house fairly often, for various reasons, and rarely suffer any consequences, even if they shoot the occupants. The family dog is often a casualty.

Is "The warrant had the wrong address", or "Our prison informant lied", or "We meant the house next door" much of a different situation?
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 12:43 PM   #3299
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,215
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
.....
Is "The warrant had the wrong address", or "Our prison informant lied", or "We meant the house next door" much of a different situation?

That should never be excused either, and it's terrible that it often is. But in those cases, police officers are acting as police officers, usually with a (flawed) warrant issued by a judge. They had reason to believe they were acting properly. In those situations there's plenty of blame to go around. But in this case, the woman was not acting as a cop, she had no authority to enter the property, she had no reason except her own misperceptions to imagine there was a crime in progress, she didn't check the apartment number when her key didn't work, she didn't call for help, she didn't call out from the safety of the hall "Who's in there?," and ultimately she went in blazing at unidentified shadows in the dark.

You really think there's no difference?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 12:47 PM   #3300
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Well, the police do bust into the wrong house fairly often, for various reasons, and rarely suffer any consequences, even if they shoot the occupants. The family dog is often a casualty.

Is "The warrant had the wrong address", or "Our prison informant lied", or "We meant the house next door" much of a different situation?
I think the police going to the address they were given, but the information they were given was wrong, is far more understandable than rocking up at completely the wrong door.

Honest mistake vs negligence.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 12:53 PM   #3301
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That should never be excused either, and it's terrible that it often is. But in those cases, police officers are acting as police officers, usually with a (flawed) warrant issued by a judge. They had reason to believe they were acting properly. In those situations there's plenty of blame to go around. But in this case, the woman was not acting as a cop, she had no authority to enter the property, she had no reason except her own misperceptions to imagine there was a crime in progress, she didn't check the apartment number when her key didn't work, she didn't call for help, she didn't call out from the safety of the hall "Who's in there?," and ultimately she went in blazing at unidentified shadows in the dark.

You really think there's no difference?
Indeed. IME warrants are checked and double checked and still sometimes mistakes were made. In the knowledge that we could go to the wrong house, we did not go in "all guns blazing" and the first thing once in was to confirm who was there and we were in the right place.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 02:56 PM   #3302
CoulsdonUK
Graduate Poster
 
CoulsdonUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I realize that Distracted1's comment was not an assignment of blame, but it at least hinted at a redistribution of responsibility. The two things overlap but they're not quite the same (which is why there is such a thing as manslaughter), and I think it's important to note that even if one can find that the victim missed an opportunity to save himself it doesn't mitigate the shooter's responsibility. Analyzing what happened and even retroactively rewriting it to figure out what went wrong and what might have gone better is an interesting exercise, and may be useful, but not for deciding the fault for what actually happened.
I do not see any overlap and this was my point in #3282 for Mr Jean to be shot dead he only needed to be home, for Guyger to end up in his apartment she made a litany of incomprehensible mistakes which I find difficult to fathom in a trained police officer and one experienced in situational awareness of her surroundings, even in Texas.

Last edited by CoulsdonUK; 30th December 2018 at 02:59 PM.
CoulsdonUK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 07:39 PM   #3303
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I realize what you mean, regarding Jean noticing what Guyger was doing, but in this thread it will be interpreted as blaming Jean.

At any rate, I think Guyger would have smelled recently burning MJ and likely mentioned it. She didn't as far as I know.

So I don't think MJ will be any factor.

It was out in the open, the police noticed it, so it got put on the paperwork. It needed to be collected.

Otherwise, it won't be any factor in the case.
I can still be quite stoned hours after smoking marijuana. It would not need to have been smoked recently enough that the aroma would be overwhelming.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 08:15 PM   #3304
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
From the reaction to your comment, it must be you. I accept your words may have been chosen poorly and you created an unintended position.

My attitude is that in his house he can do anything he wants. There is nothing he could have been doing or not doing that would shift the blame in any shape or form to him.
You may accept what you wish- but I have not conceded that my statement said anything other than exactly what it intended to.
Questions of what Jean was doing are germane to the topic; was he watching football (if so, how much light did it give off), was he eating a bowl of cereal at the counter (if so, did he see Guyer immediately), was he sleeping and slow to respond?, was he drunk or high?

If you wish to jump to the conclusion that examining what he may or may not have been doing- and how that may or may not have contributed to the dynamic of the incident- is making a claim that he was "doing something wrong" the fault is with your reasoning, not my wording.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 08:22 PM   #3305
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That should never be excused either, and it's terrible that it often is. But in those cases, police officers are acting as police officers, usually with a (flawed) warrant issued by a judge. They had reason to believe they were acting properly. In those situations there's plenty of blame to go around. But in this case, the woman was not acting as a cop, she had no authority to enter the property, she had no reason except her own misperceptions to imagine there was a crime in progress, she didn't check the apartment number when her key didn't work, she didn't call for help, she didn't call out from the safety of the hall "Who's in there?," and ultimately she went in blazing at unidentified shadows in the dark.

You really think there's no difference?
I find those situations less excusable than this one. They involve agents acting with intent. Guyer was a woman coming home from work. As was pointed out earlier by another poster, rigorous standards of behavior that may be expected to be observed "out in the world" are relaxed when one is home.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 08:35 PM   #3306
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,406
This whole "I'm totally not being a racist apologist, I'm just theorizing about what the defense team is gonna do" is getting ickier and ickier.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 09:05 PM   #3307
Lambchops
Muse
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 911
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This whole "I'm totally not being a racist apologist, I'm just theorizing about what the defense team is gonna do" is getting ickier and ickier.
What's even worse is that it's not necessarily a race thing. It's more of a "percieved authority vs common people" thing.

You're in a position of power? Go ahead and kill me, because I must have been doing something wrong. Like existing in my own home while not wearing a uniform.

Wohoo, authoritarianism yay!
__________________
Proud Dirtbag Leftist.

Last edited by Lambchops; 30th December 2018 at 09:07 PM.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th December 2018, 10:13 PM   #3308
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,215
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I find those situations less excusable than this one. They involve agents acting with intent. Guyer was a woman coming home from work. As was pointed out earlier by another poster, rigorous standards of behavior that may be expected to be observed "out in the world" are relaxed when one is home.

Back to the beginning: She was not at home! Assume for the sake of argument that after a long shift, a nurse or a bus driver with a concealed weapons permit pushed open a door in which her key wouldn't function, observed a "silhouette" across a darkened room, and opened fire with her lawfully carried piece, killing the lawful resident of a home that she had no right to enter. Would anyone say "Whoops! Gee, mistakes happen." I doubt it. Ms. (no longer "officer") Guyger deserves the same treatment. If anything, her background as a cop should have made her more cautious, more open to the possibility of error, and, if nothing else, more hesitant to rush into a dark room to confront an unidentified "threat."
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 03:00 AM   #3309
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You may accept what you wish- but I have not conceded that my statement said anything other than exactly what it intended to.
Questions of what Jean was doing are germane to the topic; was he watching football (if so, how much light did it give off), was he eating a bowl of cereal at the counter (if so, did he see Guyer immediately), was he sleeping and slow to respond?, was he drunk or high?

If you wish to jump to the conclusion that examining what he may or may not have been doing- and how that may or may not have contributed to the dynamic of the incident- is making a claim that he was "doing something wrong" the fault is with your reasoning, not my wording.
When you say "slow to respond" or "drunk and high", are you thinking that those are potential excuses for Guyer to have shot at Jean?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 03:03 AM   #3310
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I find those situations less excusable than this one. They involve agents acting with intent. Guyer was a woman coming home from work. As was pointed out earlier by another poster, rigorous standards of behavior that may be expected to be observed "out in the world" are relaxed when one is home.
Rigourous standards of behaviour should be expected of all who are carry a gun, no matter the circumstances.

If they can be relaxed in the home, then Guyer can do anything he wants and you should not be examining his actions and behaviour at all.

You are exhibiting inconsistencies and double standards.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 03:05 AM   #3311
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Back to the beginning: She was not at home! Assume for the sake of argument that after a long shift, a nurse or a bus driver with a concealed weapons permit pushed open a door in which her key wouldn't function, observed a "silhouette" across a darkened room, and opened fire with her lawfully carried piece, killing the lawful resident of a home that she had no right to enter. Would anyone say "Whoops! Gee, mistakes happen." I doubt it. Ms. (no longer "officer") Guyger deserves the same treatment. If anything, her background as a cop should have made her more cautious, more open to the possibility of error, and, if nothing else, more hesitant to rush into a dark room to confront an unidentified "threat."
Indeed, anyone who is allowed to carry a gun, must be fit and alert all the time.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 03:30 AM   #3312
CoulsdonUK
Graduate Poster
 
CoulsdonUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
What's even worse is that it's not necessarily a race thing. It's more of a "percieved authority vs common people" thing.

You're in a position of power? Go ahead and kill me, because I must have been doing something wrong. Like existing in my own home while not wearing a uniform.

Wohoo, authoritarianism yay!
I wholeheartedly agree.
CoulsdonUK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 03:36 AM   #3313
CoulsdonUK
Graduate Poster
 
CoulsdonUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I can still be quite stoned hours after smoking marijuana. It would not need to have been smoked recently enough that the aroma would be overwhelming.
Has Mr Jean’s toxicology report been leaked?

I know police found x grams of marijuana and accessories linked to marijuana use, but I don’t recall seeing any toxicology results if you have any related links please share.
CoulsdonUK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 05:35 AM   #3314
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,679
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Back to the beginning: She was not at home! Assume for the sake of argument that after a long shift, a nurse or a bus driver with a concealed weapons permit pushed open a door in which her key wouldn't function, observed a "silhouette" across a darkened room, and opened fire with her lawfully carried piece, killing the lawful resident of a home that she had no right to enter. Would anyone say "Whoops! Gee, mistakes happen." I doubt it. Ms. (no longer "officer") Guyger deserves the same treatment. If anything, her background as a cop should have made her more cautious, more open to the possibility of error, and, if nothing else, more hesitant to rush into a dark room to confront an unidentified "threat."
Were Guyer a bus driver with a ccw permit-or an attorney, barista, prostitute, or schoolteacher- I would be making the same arguments.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2018, 01:28 PM   #3315
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,393
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Were Guyer a bus driver with a ccw permit-or an attorney, barista, prostitute, or schoolteacher- I would be making the same arguments.
That people in their own homes should be alert to the potential that someone with a gun may appear at the door thinking it their home?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:14 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.