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Old 12th August 2019, 11:17 AM   #1281
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
. . . And the author "ripx4nutmeg" made no attempt to correct that impression despite not claiming it in the first place. Like I said it is clever in its curation, manipulation and misrepresentation. It looks very much like the post got the desired reaction and not a faulty undesired one.

caveman1917 instead of requesting proof what do you think the ripx user is doing with this post? Can you make a better case for an alternative conclusion than cavemonster on the page before?
It would depend on whether the incident in question did or did not involve a sword, which as far as I know is unknown. And given that neither of them make any attempts to correct any faulty impressions it seems it will remain unknown. I just find it interesting that you insist on the charitable reading for the first user (how to interpret the "achievement unlocked") yet insist on the opposite for the second user.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:21 AM   #1282
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The deconstruction of safe spaces for women, without public debate that considers the people most affected by the change.
Hmm, that seems like a political jargon way of saying you don't have an answer to exactly how she's a victim, but you can't let go of the notion that she is one.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:21 AM   #1283
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It could have been prevented, everything but the real woman choosing not to share. Once it was posted and made public the smeg storm began.

It wasn't the unnamed other woman that made it public, she just walked away from her uncomfortable situation. He wanted to make a big deal of it and got one. But it went badly. Nobody should have gotten run off of any online site.

It was s risk he took, and lost.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:34 AM   #1284
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Women have a right to be believed



*certain women
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #1285
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I didn't read any of the tweet stuff, it's too hard to get past the real woman somehow was wrong in leaving when the fake one went in.
The (cis) woman who left is not wrong in any way. That would be ridiculous.

But the trans woman's behaviour or twitter post can not (on the basis of known info) be considered predatory. It has just been made to look that way.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:03 PM   #1286
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It would depend on whether the incident in question did or did not involve a sword, which as far as I know is unknown.
I think you already accepted that it did not, even pointing out that the ripx4nutmeg user never said it did.

So there is zero reason to think it did, and it's all cleared up then.

Quote:
And given that neither of them make any attempts to correct any faulty impressions it seems it will remain unknown.
"Neither of them"? The user Adrienne was not involved in the linked twitter thread, only the user ripx4nutmeg. What is conspicuous is that the latter did not correct any impressions among responders to the post that this user made. For sure I would not expect the Adrienne user to wade into that thread!

Quote:
I just find it interesting that you insist on the charitable reading for the first user (how to interpret the "achievement unlocked") yet insist on the opposite for the second user.
The first user simply made a post on twitter. The second one pulled together three unrelated screenshots from the first users account and packaged them into something new. That by itself suggests charity to the first and not to the second. Then there is the analysis by cavemonster above to which I can not add much additional.

Last edited by Francesca R; 12th August 2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:06 PM   #1287
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
The (cis) woman who left is not wrong in any way. That would be ridiculous.

But the trans woman's behaviour or twitter post can not (on the basis of known info) be considered predatory. It has just been made to look that way.
For my money Adrienne's tweet was provocative as hell and almost demanding to be misinterpreted. ****-stirring in the extreme.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:14 PM   #1288
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
For my money Adrienne's tweet was provocative as hell and almost demanding to be misinterpreted. ****-stirring in the extreme.
Not in my view. If she believes she should have unfettered access to a female bathroom and is offended by any woman not being OK with that, she is merely expressing this view. The fact that I fully disagree with that belief (which I do and this should be obvious by now; my view is that she should not have access to that bathroom) . . . doesn't make a difference, the tweet still isn't "provocative" or the other thing.

Most importantly it is not evidence of a predator of women.

PS I hope it is not lost on you (or anyone) if I say thay I recoil from almost any situation in which someone says: "they were asking for it"
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:06 PM   #1289
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I think you already accepted that it did not.
I have not seen evidence of that.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:59 PM   #1290
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The deconstruction of safe spaces for women, without public debate that considers the people most affected by the change.
You don’t think there was a robust public debate about these issues in Seattle?

https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/victor...defeated-again
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #1291
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Great fallacious quote twinned with a non sequitur in that (also brought up in this thread)

“It’s already a felony to assault or harass someone in public facilities, and no one should have to prove their gender to self-appointed bathroom cops.”
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:28 PM   #1292
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But, I or anyone else can choose to not be present when an objectionable person is in a space. A puking drunk, a group of tweakers or anyone that makes us uncomfortable. It is no crime.

For any reason and without owing anyone an apology or explanation. If crossdressers go on Twitter and complain, then get backlash for it they had to know it was a risk.
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:24 PM   #1293
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I don't use twitter, but from what I've seen people complain about things all the time there. Complaints don't have to be about criminal acts, and complaining that some person did something you didn't like without naming that person doesn't make that person into a victim at all.
As for the risk, I suppose there is always the risk that some bigot will maliciously alter your tweet, but that's their fault not yours.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:48 PM   #1294
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
But, I or anyone else can choose to not be present when an objectionable person is in a space. A puking drunk, a group of tweakers or anyone that makes us uncomfortable. It is no crime.
I've encountered puking drunks in a few public spaces. At least once, I was one myself (though I maintain it was mostly the turbulence). To my knowledge, no one has ever been called phobic for avoiding people like that, since we can pretty much all agree they should cut back and stop acting that way.
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Old 14th August 2019, 12:07 AM   #1295
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
But, I or anyone else can choose to not be present when an objectionable person is in a space. A puking drunk, a group of tweakers or anyone that makes us uncomfortable. It is no crime.
Can you? If you've just got out of the pool and need to dry off and get dressed, you "can choose not to be present"?
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Old 14th August 2019, 01:36 PM   #1296
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Are you not able to quickly empty the locker and leave? Why ?
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:39 AM   #1297
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What the lefties call a "trans woman" is actually a man. This is an indisputable truth, and that makes it a no-brainer as to which bathroom they use and what sports teams they play on. It is impossible to change a man into a woman. This is also an indisputable truth, and is probably why the people who try to do it have a much higher suicide rate than people who don't. Thus, the laws the left wants to pass to force me to call a man a woman are insane and unconstitutional, as they would be forcing me and everyone else to lie. If men want to dress up and act like women, and people voluntarily want to call them "women", then that is fine with me. I might even do the same thing if the situation ever arose. I wouldn't want to be mean to people who are mentally ill.
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:48 AM   #1298
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
It is impossible to change a man into a woman. This is also an indisputable truth, and is probably why the people who try to do it have a much higher suicide rate than people who don't.
Citation? I would be surprised to learn that people who have transitioned have higher rates of depression or suicide than those who have dysphoria but have not transitioned.
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Old 15th August 2019, 12:51 PM   #1299
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
What the lefties call a "trans woman" is actually a man. This is an indisputable truth, and that makes it a no-brainer as to which bathroom they use and what sports teams they play on. It is impossible to change a man into a woman. This is also an indisputable truth, and is probably why the people who try to do it have a much higher suicide rate than people who don't. Thus, the laws the left wants to pass to force me to call a man a woman are insane and unconstitutional, as they would be forcing me and everyone else to lie. If men want to dress up and act like women, and people voluntarily want to call them "women", then that is fine with me. I might even do the same thing if the situation ever arose. I wouldn't want to be mean to people who are mentally ill.
????
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Old 15th August 2019, 02:57 PM   #1300
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Citation? I would be surprised to learn that people who have transitioned have higher rates of depression or suicide than those who have dysphoria but have not transitioned.
There's a particular study from a couple years back that people who dislike trans folks like to routinely misrepresent.

The actual data showed that trans people after surgery have a lower rate of suicide than trans people who have not had surgery (other factors being controlled for I believe) but higher than the general population.

There is a short passage which, when taken out of its context and away from the data can be misread as though it says what Brooklyn is saying. The studies authors have gone on record to tell transphobes to cut that out.

There's room in the world for different opinions on what psychological health looks like and how we should define gender. But when you find yourself relying on outright lies to support your position as Brooklyn is, it may be a good time to consider how grounded and healthy one's own positions are.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:05 PM   #1301
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Are you not able to quickly empty the locker and leave? Why ?
While wet and wearing a swimming costume? Are you serious?
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:26 PM   #1302
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
There's a particular study from a couple years back that people who dislike trans folks like to routinely misrepresent.

The actual data showed that trans people after surgery have a lower rate of suicide than trans people who have not had surgery (other factors being controlled for I believe) but higher than the general population.

There is a short passage which, when taken out of its context and away from the data can be misread as though it says what Brooklyn is saying. The studies authors have gone on record to tell transphobes to cut that out.

There's room in the world for different opinions on what psychological health looks like and how we should define gender. But when you find yourself relying on outright lies to support your position as Brooklyn is, it may be a good time to consider how grounded and healthy one's own positions are.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...?noredirect=on
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Old 15th August 2019, 08:58 PM   #1303
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Is there a part of that article you'd like to discuss?
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Old 16th August 2019, 05:15 AM   #1304
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I don't blame them. Having to see male private prats is not something a young girl should have to experience.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/t...WlzsZ-E9gFZT8g

Iirc there was a SC ruling the government couldn't force you to see the opposite gender's junk, nor be forced to expose your own to the opposite gender.

This hasn't gotten back there yet. Given it was described as a right, it should be interesting as it was about genitals. A weener is just as shocking, presumably, to a little girl regardless of whether it's attached to a boy's body or a "girl's". Or girl's, depending on the social outrage correctness factor of the audience.
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:35 AM   #1305
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*opposite SEX.
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Old 16th August 2019, 10:33 AM   #1306
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Is there a part of that article you'd like to discuss?
I assume we're talking about Toomey, Syvertsen & Shramko study now?



Best as I can tell (paywalled at the moment) their findings are consistent with the hypothesis that adolescents who experience more social pressure to conform to unhealthy sexed/gendered norms are more likely to experience suicidal ideation as a result of their nonconformance.
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Old 19th August 2019, 01:07 AM   #1307
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I've responded to this several times, but here goes again.

This "self ID" you are worried about is nothing more than the demands of a fringe group with zero possibility of it being enacted in the real world. The constant shrieking about it and demands that everyone must answer whether or not they support this fringe idea is a red herring. It is nothing more than a scare tactic used to introduce or reinforce negative feelings towards trans people by lumping them in with "predatory males"* in order to justify bigotry, hatred, and fear of trans people.




*and it's always males for the people who can't let up on "self ID=apocalypse", the idea that females can be predatory, harassing, or abusive doesn't seem to register.
Here’s a real world example of self ID being accepted by the governing body of a sport. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...foot-nfljzh2h9
Quote:
Maxine Blythin, who is more than 6ft tall and under England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) rules can self-identify as a woman, has a batting average of 124 this season and has hit four centuries already.

Under ECB rules transgender players have to test their testosterone only if they are selected for England.
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Old 19th August 2019, 01:31 AM   #1308
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Here’s a real world example of self ID being accepted by the governing body of a sport. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...foot-nfljzh2h9
Of course one solution, which will never happen, is to ban gender groupings altogether. Let all females, trans, add your category here, compete with men. Couldn’t be fairer than that can we?

Hear the howls of protest from all corners, with the loudest from people like Maxine.
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:13 AM   #1309
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Some of us, even some privileged straight cis males, have discovered that we can do fine without any sports at all. I don't care about the World Cup, Tour de France or the Olympics (summer or winter). I find practically anything other than sports more interesting. The last time I watched any sports was the Legends Cup. That was several years ago and even that couldn't make me pay attention for more than 10-15 minutes.
Having to guess the gender of the players might have made it slightly more interesting, but I'm not really sure that it would.
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:18 AM   #1310
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some of us, even some privileged straight cis males, have discovered that we can do fine without any sports at all. I don't care about the World Cup, Tour de France or the Olympics (summer or winter). I find practically anything other than sports more interesting. The last time I watched any sports was the Legends Cup. That was several years ago and even that couldn't make me pay attention for more than 10-15 minutes.
Having to guess the gender of the players might have made it slightly more interesting, but I'm not really sure that it would.
I’m Australian. Sport flows through my veins.
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:48 AM   #1311
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I almost believed you when I googled it and got this:

Quote:
No results found for "Australians who hate sports".

But then there was this:

Quote:
Australians love sport, sure. But we're not obsessed with it in the way other countries are. We're not madly passionate about it. We're not even that good at it.
Popularity of sport in Australia: We're not that into it and we're not good at it either (Traveller.com.au, )

So I won't question that sport flows through your veins, but I bet you can find my kind, too, even down under!
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:52 AM   #1312
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I assume we're talking about Toomey, Syvertsen & Shramko study now?



Best as I can tell (paywalled at the moment) their findings are consistent with the hypothesis that adolescents who experience more social pressure to conform to unhealthy sexed/gendered norms are more likely to experience suicidal ideation as a result of their nonconformance.
May I suggest looking at stats for those that succeed at it.

I think you will find it is a tad different

And "Screams for help" end up with the person still alive
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:56 AM   #1313
lionking
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I almost believed you when I googled it and got this:




But then there was this:




So I won't question that sport flows through your veins, but I bet you can find my kind, too, even down under!
Bloody fake news.

But, seriously for a moment, my wife, with one husband, seven children and three out of four grandchildren (one too young) all infatuated with sport, couldn’t give a flying **** about sport.

They do exist, but not in large numbers.
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Old 19th August 2019, 02:57 AM   #1314
Belz...
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
May I suggest looking at stats for those that succeed at it.

I think you will find it is a tad different

And "Screams for help" end up with the person still alive
Also what does "nonbinary" and "unsure of gender" really stand for? I hear about that from weird people on the net, but is there an actual basis for this?
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:01 AM   #1315
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Also what does "nonbinary" and "unsure of gender" really stand for? I hear about that from weird people on the net, but is there an actual basis for this?
Does seem to be an odd couple of categories

Maybe it means Fashionably ticking the weird box
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:02 AM   #1316
dann
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I assume we're talking about Toomey, Syvertsen & Shramko study now?

Best as I can tell (paywalled at the moment) their findings are consistent with the hypothesis that adolescents who experience more social pressure to conform to unhealthy sexed/gendered norms are more likely to experience suicidal ideation as a result of their nonconformance.

There's also this: Gender Minority Mental Health in the U.S.: Results of a National Survey on College Campuses (American Journal of Preventive Medicine, # 57, September 2019)
A Danish article that links to the study (my translation): Young transsexuals in the USA have a quadrupled risk of mental disorders (or 'bad mental health') (DR.dk, Aug. 17, 2019)
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Last edited by dann; 19th August 2019 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 19th August 2019, 03:07 AM   #1317
dann
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Bloody fake news.

But, seriously for a moment, my wife, with one husband, seven children and three out of four grandchildren (one too young) all infatuated with sport, couldn’t give a flying **** about sport.

They do exist, but not in large numbers.

It seems to be much more common in women. I always go salsa dancing when there's a big game on TV. Those are the best nights!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th August 2019, 08:31 AM   #1318
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some of us, even some privileged straight cis males, have discovered that we can do fine without any sports at all. I don't care about the World Cup, Tour de France or the Olympics (summer or winter). I find practically anything other than sports more interesting. The last time I watched any sports was the Legends Cup. That was several years ago and even that couldn't make me pay attention for more than 10-15 minutes.
Having to guess the gender of the players might have made it slightly more interesting, but I'm not really sure that it would.
Is this relevant in some way, or just a way to dismiss portions of the transgender debate that you don't care about and/or would be complicated to resolve fairly?

Because regardless of your disinterest, many millions (billions?) of people are interested and place value on the competitiveness of various sports.
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Old 19th August 2019, 11:14 AM   #1319
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
May I suggest looking at stats for those that succeed at it.
I doubt we could get accurate measures of their sexual orientation and/or gender identity on the day they succeeded in ending their lives, since such things live inside the mind and are not necessarily written down anywhere.
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Old 19th August 2019, 01:52 PM   #1320
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It seems to be much more common in women. I always go salsa dancing when there's a big game on TV. Those are the best nights!
I once made the mistake of going to JoAnn Fabrics on Super Bowl Sunday.

It was the longest line I had ever been in at that store. I waited over an hour to get my fabric cut. I wasn't the only guy in the store, but we were outnumbered by even a larger margin than normal.
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