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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 12th August 2019, 08:22 PM   #401
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Tom Steyer is a billionaire, not a millionaire. And I am saying that that is to his advantage (in one sense - he has money to campaign), but also it doesn't make him attractive in the eyes of people who don't want to vote for super-rich establishment-types. The establishment bit is the bit that could count against him.
I'd like to see your evidence rather than your supposition that Democrats are OK with millionaires but not a Progressive philanthropist billionaire.

Quote:
And the fact that you are rolling your eyes because I "didn't look very hard" is also a point against him.

You are contradicting yourself if you think I should look harder to find his name recognition. If I have to look hard, then he doesn't have it.

It's not as if I have to Google Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. They are known. They have name recognition, run for office and been successful. Steyer has never run for office, and is unknown outside of political junky circles.
I know a lot about him and so do a lot of people.

The Atlantic 2018: How Tom Steyer Built the Biggest Political Machine You’ve Never Heard Of
Quote:
Having spent $120 million and signed up 6 million people, Tom Steyer has assembled, in a year, an organization with more reach than the NRA.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:25 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Plus it takes a fundamental misunderstanding of progressive rhetoric. It's not like there's a magic threshold where if you cross over into 10 figures you become an evil James Bond supervillian in the eyes of all the brainwashed cult followers.

If you hold down a good paying job in public service for decades and then write a book about political ideas that sells real well, I probably have no beef with you.

If you float around a number of investment banks and hedge funds and then found your own to make your billions and then start plowing all that into political activity and buying influence (even if it pushes policies I agree with), then I'm already halfway to thinking you're the living embodiment of everything wrong with our entire system.
I do believe you have a different idea of "buying influence" than Steyer does.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:27 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I never claimed you were poorly informed about Sanders and Warren. I continue to claim you have a poor understanding of their potential to win an election against Trump.

If you're going to complain about me not getting your position, let's reciprocate and I'll wait for you to catch up in your understanding of my position.
I have a poor understanding and I'm naive but that's not "poorly informed"?

Why don't you stop all this ad hominem nonsense and support your positions.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:30 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I do believe you have a different idea of "buying influence" than Steyer does.
That's nice. We have different ideas.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:54 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have a poor understanding and I'm naive but that's not "poorly informed"?

Why don't you stop all this ad hominem nonsense and support your positions.
OK then, I agree you are poorly informed: Not about Warren and Sanders (as you maintain I claimed) but about their potential to win against Trump.

It's not an ad hominem to note that your dismissal is naive; it's a fact that you're jumping to conclusions for which you have insufficient evidence.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:01 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Well, he was born here. His father was born here.



At least you didn't contest his monkeyness. You seem to be learning after all. LOL!
My bad. I thought you were joking, about the "monkeyness".

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Old 12th August 2019, 09:03 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
That's nice. We have different ideas.

Thanks for sharing.
Tell me how Steyer has been buying influence? From whom?
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:18 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My bad. I thought you were joking, about the "monkeyness".

I guess my initial hope that you were learning was premature then.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:43 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'd like to see your evidence rather than your supposition that Democrats are OK with millionaires but not a Progressive philanthropist billionaire.
I think it depends on their activities. These don't sound great, though:

Quote:
The problem is, billionaires are generally pretty bad people, and certainly can’t be trusted to reliably champion the interests of the working class. Steyer, despite his public embrace of environmentalist and progressive causes, was heavily invested in private prisons and even fossil fuel companies. In 2014, the New York Times reported that “Mr Steyer’s fund, Farallon Capital Management, has pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into companies that operate coalmines and coal-fired power plants from Indonesia to China.” For years, his company also “invested heavily in the Corrections Corporation of America, the nation’s largest private prison firm”. Steyer’s investments were so controversial that at one point, Yale students protested the way Steyer was using their university’s endowment.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-election-2020

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The irony is all your evidence undercuts your argument, hence the title:

"Tom Steyer Built the Biggest Political Machine You’ve Never Heard Of"

Yeah, that's the problem!
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:53 PM   #410
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Anyone who thinks that Steyer's political-machine-not-yet-heard-of won't be, isn't looking at much of the bigger picture. Kind of silly to dismiss such a well organized ground game because Steyer only recently decided to run for POTUS.

Anyone care to defend why Sanders' revolution hasn't grown much since 2016?
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:05 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Anyone who thinks that Steyer's political-machine-not-yet-heard-of won't be, isn't looking at much of the bigger picture. Kind of silly to dismiss such a well organized ground game because Steyer only recently decided to run for POTUS.
"won't be" what?

I am not saying he has no chance, only that there is no evidence yet that he is a better proposition for president than either Sanders or Warren who have established voter and donor bases.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:53 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, she is the sexiest one so I'm taking it as a compliment.
Mind if I sniff your hair? (Since I've been exposed as Joe Biden).
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:56 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
lol, Travis for President!
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Build The Train!

And invest in all other forms of infrastructure! From rebuilding roads, to expanding subways, investment into rural broadband and no one has to put up with old lead pipes anymore.


Also, back in the Paris Accord. Back in the Iran deal. Seal Team Six takes out MBS to avenge Khashoggi. No more support for the Yemen genocide. Saudi Arabia gets neutralized by energy independence.



Also Herbie Goes Bananas gets declared our National Film because reasons.
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:28 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
They didn't vote for Trump as an outside the establishment candidate. They voted for Trump to punish the establishment. Everything going wrong isn't a bug, it's a feature.

I don't know how to keep saying this to people. Trump wasn't elected as a candidate. He was elected as a punishment. He's a troll writ large.

Why is Trump going to be re-elected? Because how much he's broken the country is the point, not a side effect.

Trump was a reckoning. A brick thrown the window of a country that had left everyone more then walking distance from two Starbucks and a vinyl record store behind.

It's not them saving themselves or making things better for themselves anymore. They're past that. Way past that. When you put a bag of flaming dog poop outside your exe's door and ding-dong-ditch them... it's not in hope of you getting back with them. And Trump is America Conservative's Bag of Flaming Dog Poop. They don't even necessarily like the Flaming Dog Poop themselves. I'm sure some do and some don't but in the end it's just a tool to hurt people with more then anything else.

This is a dying, scared, and angry people trying to do as much damage as they can as they die off.

Need proof of this? Look at the board. Notice how almost none of the major Trumpers have any goddamn interest in anything beyond pure trolling? You think that's just an insular problem here on the board? I assure it's not. It manifests in different ways out in the real world, but it's same base mentality. They know things aren't going to get better for them.

They don't want things to get better. They have no hope. And nobody is trying to give them any. Trump is selling a perfect coded message of "Let's burn this place to the ground while we can, at least they won't win either" and his opponents have tossed them to the wind as racists and rednecks not worth saving. Whatever good people are left in the margins isn't numbered or organized enough to make a difference.

When your opponent is playing "Flip the board over" and not chess it doesn't matter how many moves ahead of him you're thinking.
Yeah buuuuut.... Trump _did_ promise them to make things better. I'm not sure your characterisation applies to the majority of Trump supporters. I think they really want him to fix what he told them they think is wrong with their country.
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:59 AM   #415
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If red America actually inflicted Trump on us good people as a punishment because they just couldn't handle how their towns were no longer viable I say we just let the blue areas break off and become their own nation.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:10 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah buuuuut.... Trump _did_ promise them to make things better. I'm not sure your characterisation applies to the majority of Trump supporters. I think they really want him to fix what he told them they think is wrong with their country.
This is gonna be hard to put into words exactly, but I think Trump is better at speaking in code to a significant percentage of his core demographic then it seems on the surface.

I think Trump is buried pretty deep into "What he's saying and what message is getting across are pretty far apart" end of scale.

Maybe I'm just being to Pollyanaish (that needs to be a word) and assuming that nobody is actually taking Trump literally because... his literal level is so absurd.

Again we're talking a man who stood in front of a crowd of tens of thousands in Iowa, on national television, and said "How stupid are the people of Iowa?" and won Iowa in a landslide.

I can't put like an exact "X percentage of Trump supporters" number on it, but people looking at Trump and seeing a "Burn the Kingdom Down, at least our enemies will be gone and we can be rulers of the ashes" message is at least a factor that can't be dismissed in all this.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:51 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Which "farm State" is going to go blue under any circumstance?
Iowa - it already has.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:16 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is gonna be hard to put into words exactly, but I think Trump is better at speaking in code to a significant percentage of his core demographic then it seems on the surface.

I think Trump is buried pretty deep into "What he's saying and what message is getting across are pretty far apart" end of scale.
Well, yeah. Except I'm not sure the code is the sender's, but the receivers'.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:07 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is gonna be hard to put into words exactly, but I think Trump is better at speaking in code to a significant percentage of his core demographic then it seems on the surface.

I think Trump is buried pretty deep into "What he's saying and what message is getting across are pretty far apart" end of scale.

There was an episode of Pinky & the Brain in which he ran for President, and all of his megalomaniacal proclamations during the campaign got interpreted by the listeners as something they wanted.

Brain: If anyone opposes me, I'll teach them a lesson.
Mother with multiple children: Finally, someone who supports better education.

Brain: Submit to me, and nobody will get hurt.
Elderly man in a nursing home: Nobody will get sick? Health care!! Great health care!!


I'd rather have the Brain in office.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:38 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'd like to see your evidence rather than your supposition that Democrats are OK with millionaires but not a Progressive philanthropist billionaire.
There is no question that, as you move to the furthest left like the DSA, there is a definite almost militant bias against billionaires, millionaires and the rich. They endorse Sanders, and his whole schtick is anti-billionaire, anti-Wall Street. See his list of anti-endorsements for instance. But many people want the Dems to move to the middle.

Negatives:
Not a Democrat, but the reception to Howard Schultz was lukewarm.
Random thread from Daily Kos - Would you vote for a billionaire? (spoiler alert - no)

Positives:
Also not a Democrat, but billionaire Ross Perot got 20% of the vote in 1992, and that was in an actual election, not just a primary.
Some Trump voters probably thought that he was a billionaire, and he won.


My anecdote / opinion / competely fact-free take - Seriously? A freaking billionaire? We are going to run a billionaire against Trump? What in the actual ****? Why is finding qualified candidates to be president so damn hard? Why can't a boring, capable technocrat get the job sometime? Do we have to change to proportional representation / a parliamentary system to let a doctor or physicist be president for a change?
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:21 PM   #421
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USA Today: Tom Steyer reaches donor threshold for September debates

And apparently he's gotten >2% in three polls so he just needs one more.


I'm not clear why you are bringing up Schultz and Perot, carlitos.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #422
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Well, it's not like Pew or Gallup ask Democrats "would you vote for a billionaire" on their regular opinion polls. So I mentioned some other billionaires who have run for president. As noted, we certainly know where the Sanders / DSA contingent stand, so there is a non-trivial number of Democratic primary voters that are predisposed not to vote for a billionaire. Whether he can break through and change their minds or the remainder of supporters galvanize around him would be the next question. I guess we'll see.

I like his platform, but don't know the details well enough to see how differentiated it is vs. the rest of the field.

His "need to impeach" advertising spend always struck me as a quixotic waste of millions of dollars. Given that he's pledged to spend $100MM of his own money on the campaign, he didn't really need the money, so I suspect that his goal the whole time was to gather emails and supporters' info. So, maybe it turns out that the impeachment effort was an effective yet non-traditional campaign tactic. Like some other candidates that have built a PAC around an issue, then used that organization to help run for office.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:25 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If red America actually inflicted Trump on us good people as a punishment because they just couldn't handle how their towns were no longer viable I say we just let the blue areas break off and become their own nation.
From their perspective their target was the system that sold them up a river.

Now, I'll be about the last person to defend the callous disregard for collateral damage, but I will point out that's not the same thing.

Don't position yourself as the target entity in that narrative.

Nor is it fair to call disillusioned and hopeless Americans who would revel in the system being torn apart 'red America.'

I know lots of people who think Sanders is going to implode the system as it exists. There are left and right versions of this nationalist/populist phenomenon. It's just that the left is far less comfortable on that terrain so the extra discipline and unity it takes to pull it off has yielded only a handful of examples.

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Old 13th August 2019, 07:10 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Anyone who thinks that Steyer's political-machine-not-yet-heard-of won't be, isn't looking at much of the bigger picture. Kind of silly to dismiss such a well organized ground game because Steyer only recently decided to run for POTUS.

Anyone care to defend why Sanders' revolution hasn't grown much since 2016?
One might speculate that the "Sanders Revolution" is still going strong based upon the strong pull to the left that the Democratic Party has experienced since his first run.
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:17 PM   #425
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New York Magazine is reporting on a state-by-state poll showing that, if Trump loses all the states where his current approval rating is under water, he would lose the general election by 300 electoral votes. Not too meaningful yet, of course, but he is definitely in serious trouble in some states he must win in any realistic scenario. Trump is losing the independents.

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Old 13th August 2019, 07:43 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
One might speculate that the "Sanders Revolution" is still going strong based upon the strong pull to the left that the Democratic Party has experienced since his first run.
That's not the part of the revolution I'm referring to. There's no doubt some of Sanders' goals are being shared. I'm happy about all of that.

I'm talking about Sanders' answer when asked how is he going to accomplish his socialist-democratic goals and he answers, young people and all the folks that could vote but haven't.
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Old 15th August 2019, 07:39 AM   #427
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MSM Smears Sanders For Saying MSM Smears Sanders
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:45 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Translating Caitlin Johnstone-ese into fact-based English: The press (accurately) reported that Sanders complained about his media coverage, and that he lacked specifics, and that it was Trump-like.
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Old 15th August 2019, 10:56 AM   #429
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Old 15th August 2019, 11:08 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by Caitlin Johnstone
[...] During the hottest and most contentious point in the 2016 presidential primary, Fair.org documented the fact that The Washington Post published no fewer than sixteen smear pieces about Sanders in the span of sixteen hours. This sixteen-hour window included Sanders’ debate with Hillary Clinton in the tightly contested state Michigan, where Sanders went on to score a narrow but hugely significant upset victory. To say that WaPo has a history of bias against Sanders is not conspiratorial, Trumpian or lacking in evidence, it’s an intellectually honest acknowledgement of an undeniable and well-documented fact.

As of this writing I have not yet seen a single one of the outlets decrying Sanders’ comments about The Washington Post make any reference at all to those sixteen WaPo smear pieces in sixteen hours. This is journalistic malpractice, as is the suggestion that there is no evidence of bias in WaPo’s reporting about Sanders. While huffily protesting the insinuation that a plutocrat-owned media outlet might not give honest coverage to a politician campaigning on the taxation of plutocrats, these media industrial complex narrative managers are themselves churning out dishonest coverage. They’re doing the thing that they insist they don’t do. [...]

"varwoche" read that and thought it was appropriate to insert a "nothing to see here" post.
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Old 15th August 2019, 03:38 PM   #431
Brainster
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John Hickenlooper dropped out. Beto's apparently trying another relaunch. Warren may have opened up a pretty significant lead in Iowa.

Quote:
A new Iowa Starting Line-Change Research poll shows the senator opening up a commanding lead in the Iowa Caucus. Warren was the top pick of 28% of likely Iowa Caucus-goers in the poll, an 11-point lead over the nearest competitor. Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders were both tied for second with 17% each. Pete Buttigieg came in fourth at 13% and Kamala Harris has the backing of 8%.

Both Cory Booker and Beto O’Rourke garnered 3% of caucus-goers’ support, while Steve Bullock, Tulsi Gabbard, Amy Klobuchar and Tom Steyer got on the board at 2%. Julian Castro, Michael Bennet and Andrew Yang rounded out the field at 1%, while everyone else had less than that.
So she's 26 points ahead of the greatest political machine I never heard of.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:00 PM   #432
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's not the part of the revolution I'm referring to. There's no doubt some of Sanders' goals are being shared. I'm happy about all of that.

I'm talking about Sanders' answer when asked how is he going to accomplish his socialist-democratic goals and he answers, young people and all the folks that could vote but haven't.
And I want to know who is he going to pay for all his goals.
More specifically, how he is going to prevent the big companies he is going to tax, like Amazon, from promptly just passing on the costs to it's customers?
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:05 PM   #433
dudalb
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
New York Magazine is reporting on a state-by-state poll showing that, if Trump loses all the states where his current approval rating is under water, he would lose the general election by 300 electoral votes. Not too meaningful yet, of course, but he is definitely in serious trouble in some states he must win in any realistic scenario. Trump is losing the independents.
True, but the Democrats ,if they mess up the nomination, might cause independents to see Donnie as the lesser of two evils.
Taking away people's health care programs and replacing it with something which has not really been worked out yet is a recipe for disaster, and the pretty much is what the "Medicare For All In Four Year" is.
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:39 PM   #434
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I want to know who is he going to pay for all his goals.
More specifically, how he is going to prevent the big companies he is going to tax, like Amazon, from promptly just passing on the costs to it's customers?
He has taken credit for Amazon raising its employee wages. Did Amazon pass on this rise in wages to its consumers?

Besides, Amazon will probably want to remain competitive. Unless they have achieved a monopoly already, what would prevent them increasing their prices is that they don’t want their competitors to undercut them.

What do you suggest otherwise? Is it that big corporations ought to be able to use their size and influence to avoid paying any tax despite the fact that other people’s taxes allow a federal infrastructure that the companies disproportionately exploit?
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Old 15th August 2019, 06:41 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but the Democrats ,if they mess up the nomination, might cause independents to see Donnie as the lesser of two evils.
Taking away people's health care programs and replacing it with something which has not really been worked out yet is a recipe for disaster, and the pretty much is what the "Medicare For All In Four Year" is.
Sanders proposes lowering the age at which people qualify for Medicare year by year. Does Medicare not really work for people now? Was LBJ wrong to introduce Medicare as something that hadn’t “been worked out yet”?
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th August 2019, 09:42 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but the Democrats ,if they mess up the nomination, might cause independents to see Donnie as the lesser of two evils.
Taking away people's health care programs and replacing it with something which has not really been worked out yet is a recipe for disaster, and the pretty much is what the "Medicare For All In Four Year" is.
Taking away people's health care programs and replacing it with something which has not really been worked out yet ....

Why wouldn't that work. The same morons who voted for that idea in 2016 have gotten smarter? You are talking about the USA, you realize? These people voted for:

A Chicken in Every Pot
Secret Plan to end the war (who knew it was "Give up and let the enemy have the country).
Read My Lips, No New Taxes
My experts are working on....
>Tax Cuts for All
> Sooper Sekret New Improved Medicare
> A Bee-you-tee-ful Wall that Mexico Will Pay For
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:31 AM   #437
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Medicare For All In Four Year

The Labour Party won the 1945 election.
In 1948 the NHS was set up and ready to go.

Sounds to me like the current US is a rather feeble entity if it can't provide MFA in a four year period when a post-war crippled economy managed to achieve just that.
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Old 16th August 2019, 03:32 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Medicare For All In Four Year

The Labour Party won the 1945 election.
In 1948 the NHS was set up and ready to go.

Sounds to me like the current US is a rather feeble entity if it can't provide MFA in a four year period when a post-war crippled economy managed to achieve just that.
You misunderstand the point of healthcare. In other countries healthcare is to provide medical treatment and promote health. In the US the point of healthcare is to make enormous amounts of money for private individuals. Unless a healthcare proposal will make millions of dollars for people who are already millionaires it is a nonstarter here.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:31 AM   #439
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To comment on the Steyer billionaire issue a bit belatedly - I, personally, count "being a billionaire" as a negative. Not disqualifying, but problematic for a number of reasons. That's before getting to any concerns of the application of said wealth.
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Old 16th August 2019, 06:47 AM   #440
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Follow-up by Caitlin: Former MSNBC Reporter Spills Details On Pro-Establishment Bias In Media

Originally Posted by Caitlin Johnstone
The ridiculous corporate media freakout over Senator Bernie Sanders’ entirely legitimate accusations of pro-establishment bias continues today, with shrill, absurd new headlines like “Sanders campaign continues attacks on journalists” and “Bernie Sanders isn’t sorry” featuring hysterical MSM drama queens rending their garments over the suggestion that plutocrat-owned media outlets could be favorable to the plutocrat-owned establishment.

In response to this cartoonish display of billionaire-sponsored performance art, The Hill‘s Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjati aired a segment on their online show Rising which is as damning an exposé on the dynamics of mass media empire propaganda as we are ever likely to witness. With startling frankness and honesty, the pair disclose their experience with the way anyone who is critical of the establishment consensus is excluded from mainstream media platforms, as well as the way access journalism, financial incentives, prestige incentives and peer pressure are used to herd mainstream reporters into toeing the establishment line once they’re in.

I strongly urge you to watch the eight-minute segment for yourself, but I’ll be transcribing parts of it as well for those who prefer reading, as well as for posterity, because it really is that historically significant. I will surely be referring back to this segment in my arguments about plutocratic media bias for years to come, because it confirms and validates everything that analysts like Noam Chomsky have been saying about mass media propaganda like nothing else I’ve ever seen. Status quo propaganda is the underlying root of all our problems, and Ball and Enjati have gifted us with an invaluable tool for understanding and attacking it. [...]

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I agree with her completely that the utterly corrupt state of media is the biggest problem of our democracies today and I don't think Trump is far off when he calls them the enemy of the people.
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