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Old 29th July 2019, 08:30 AM   #361
dann
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It does correspond to operations for people who are transabled - ie those who identify as disabled. Sometimes surgical operations are performed (for example amputating a leg) as an attempt to ease the mental distress.

But notice that they don't cure a mental disorder. They would do so if they changed the mind of the patient, which they don't do. Instead they perform an operation on the body, thus making it fit the patient's wishes.
If cancer patients are depressed because they have cancer, you don't describe it as treating a mental disorder when you surgically remove their tumors!
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:33 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ah, man. I thought Mead's post was well-written and neutral enough. His point being that the tampon thing isn't really central to Rolfe's point, so asking as if it is is not really helpful. Do you agree?

I mean, I get that it's a good zinger, but...
I think it's evidence of bizarre thought and motivations on the part of a poster, and that those who support their cause are attempting to downplay it. We see this frequently in the Politics section with the wacky remarks a certain notorious political figure makes; his supporters rush to discuss the "real issue" and stifle criticism of the actual remarks by calling them tangential and unimportant.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:34 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm actually a bit confused at this point. Are people saying there is no such thing as tampon fetishism at all? If so I fear you're wrong.

What I'm saying is that you only brought it up as an example of the perversion of (some) transsexuals. Other kinds of tampon fetichism don't serve your purpose so you don't mention them at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:35 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's evidence of bizarre thought and motivations on the part of a poster, and that those who support their cause are attempting to downplay it. We see this frequently in the Politics section with the wacky remarks a certain notorious political figure makes; his supporters rush to discuss the "real issue" and stifle criticism of the actual remarks by calling them tangential and unimportant.

You're right!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:38 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But notice that they don't cure a mental disorder. They would do so if they changed the mind of the patient, which they don't. Instead they perform an operation on the body, thus making it fit the patient's wishes.
They've done both, it's a very rare disorder so there's no standard treatment. Usually psychotherapy is used to change the patient's mind, but in a couple of cases surgery has been used to make the body fit the patient's wishes. I mainly brought it up because there's a clear correspondence to gender dysphoria and treatment options. ETA: or at least a much better correspondence than your example of making someone look like Napoleon.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:40 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like I said...
Yes, we know that you love to avoid confronting the tough and important questions of our time and instead focus on making pointless one-liners. These are important issues we're dealing with here, you can't just wish them away because they are an inconvenience for you.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:44 AM   #367
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I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:48 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What I'm saying is that you only brought it up as an example of the perversion of (some) transsexuals.
Just want to interrupt at this point to say that when Rolfe brought it up, she did not say that any of the people who have this fetish are trans.

She said that such people's behaviour was aided by the new attitude that it's not okay to complain about men coming into women's toilets.

Post #51, if you want to look back.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:48 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
About 3% of the population are active voyeurs or exhibitionists, about 0.3% of the population is transgender. Even if we assume that every single transgender person is just honestly trying to go by their life, then out of all people who'd take advantage of opening up women's locker rooms, showers, etc they're still going to be outnumbered 10-to-1 by people who'd take advantage of it for other purposes.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:49 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But notice that they don't cure a mental disorder. They would do so if they changed the mind of the patient, which they don't do. Instead they perform an operation on the body, thus making it fit the patient's wishes.
If cancer patients are depressed because they have cancer, you don't describe it as treating a mental disorder when you surgically remove their tumors! : )
On the other hand, if someone were convinced that they're healthy and functional penis is in fact a tumor, you might think twice about cutting it off to satisfy their delusion, rather than treating the delusion itself.

---

Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental illness, documented in the DSM and everything.

The fact that trans-activists argue for treating it through medical transition and social reform, rather than treating it the way other similar delusions are treated, doesn't actually make it dissimilar from those other delusions in medical terms. Just in social terms.

We don't treat "Napoleonism" by surgically altering its sufferers to look like Napoleon, nor by agreeing as a society to play along with their delusion. Mainly because there's no vocal group of activists arguing that we should. The existence of activists pushing the idea that it's not a delusion doesn't make it not a delusion. Any more than the existence of activists pushing the idea that vaccines aren't healthful doesn't make vaccines not healthful.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:50 AM   #371
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And I find the very idea that my penis is somehow inherently more threatening/dangerous/inappropriate in some situations then the penis of someone who "identifies as a woman" both ludicrous and insulting.

If a dude... just a dude walked into the women's shower room at the local Y and started soaping up his twig and berries next to all the naked women... it would be wrong and that's where the conversation would stop. The women wouldn't be given the third degree about justifying why, they wouldn't be accused of hatred, they wouldn't be accused of fear (even if fear was their primary motivator, that fact wouldn't be used as an accusations against them as if they did something wrong), and that would be it. The conversation would stop at that point.

Rolfe's... obvious laundry list of issues and the existence of real hatred and bigotry toward non-gender confirming people doesn't change that.

But I know, know "Shut and do what you're told cis-white-hetero-male."
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:51 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
The best example of this is that Rolfe clearly never seems to fear what sick and disgusting plans other women have for their used sanitary pads, which they've been methodically pilfering from public restrooms.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes, we know that you love to avoid confronting the tough and important questions of our time and instead focus on making pointless one-liners. These are important issues we're dealing with here, you can't just wish them away because they are an inconvenience for you.
Sorry, I lost track of what you're actually trying to argue, with all of the sarcasm. Could you restate your point in plain terms?

Are you actually arguing that tampon-thievery is an important issue that needs addressing ahead of all other conversations in this thread?
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:53 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
About 3% of the population are active voyeurs or exhibitionists, about 0.3% of the population is transgender. Even if we assume that every single transgender person is just honestly trying to go by their life, then out of all people who'd take advantage of opening up women's locker rooms, showers, etc they're still going to be outnumbered 10-to-1 by people who'd take advantage of it for other purposes.
And most people buying spray paint at night are huffing it. We don't restrict liberty just because of total numbers.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:56 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
I think your framing of the situation is accurate, i.e. it being about fear, but my answers would be yes and yes.

ETA: And I'll add that there have been references to "the fact that you aren't talking about transmen....." lately, as if it explains some deep and dark aspect of the psyche of those who are only talking about the problem of women's spaces, and ignoring the problem of females in men's spaces. That's hogwash.


The real reason that we don't talk about men's spaces is that those who occupy them (i.e. men) are not afraid, and have no reason to be.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:57 AM   #376
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Three years now since the Massachusetts state law outlawing gender identity discrimination was passed. (Close to one year since it was upheld by public referendum.)

Still waiting for the flood of reports of school girls or anyone else suffering from the side effects of this. Or even a trickle. Or one. Trans rights opponents should be all over those like Republicans on a Willie Horton.

Lots of interesting discussion of hypothetical issues going on, though. Keep at it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:59 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think your framing of the situation is accurate, i.e. it being about fear, but my answers would be yes and yes.
Time will tell which of us is correct. In the meantime I prefer to live and let live, and treat actual occurrences of real harm rather than take harsh preventative measures against hypothetical potential harm.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:59 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Three years now since the Massachusetts state law outlawing gender identity discrimination was passed. (Close to one year since it was upheld by public referendum.)

Still waiting for the flood of reports of school girls or anyone else suffering from the side effects of this. Or even a trickle. Or one. Trans rights opponents should be all over those like Republicans on a Willie Horton.
Have you entirely missed the OP? Or are you trying to pull some self-fulfilling prophecy: "We've made it legal for guys to be in the women's facilities and look, we've received no complaints of guys being illegally in the women's facilities!"
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:06 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's evidence of bizarre thought and motivations on the part of a poster, and that those who support their cause are attempting to downplay it. We see this frequently in the Politics section with the wacky remarks a certain notorious political figure makes; his supporters rush to discuss the "real issue" and stifle criticism of the actual remarks by calling them tangential and unimportant.

And that's been the biggest problem with Rolfe's and other anti-trans crusaders (and they spare me the "some of my best friends are" nonsense for a change, you're not fooling anyone) contributions -- they're being given a free pass on a great deal of woo used to support their crusading. So much of what they've contributed has been religious-right conspiracy theories, long-debunked medical and psychological pseudo-science, outdated and superseded medical theory and practice, rare outliers painted as representative (Texas sharpshooter fallacy), and flat assertions unsupported by any hard evidence. And their supporters are given them a free pass on the crazy because of their general agreement with the goals -- eliminating transpeople, or at least keeping them suitably marginalized and closeted.

First it was cross-dressing men stalking women in public restrooms, then it was "autogynephilia", then lesbians being forced into transitioning to men, then it was shadowy conspiracies of transpeople taking over the medical industry, now it's tampon fetishists.

Overall it has been a persistent Gish Gallop of woo, which coming from any psychic or alt.med quack would have been thoroughly dissected, debunked, and dismissed by many of the same people who have been giving it a free pass in these "debates", or downplaying the crazy in order to pretend like there's still rational thought behind the anti-trans crusade. Certain other posters have been recently attacked and nearly hounded off the board for making far less crazy assertions.

The entire anti-trans side has been a litany of insanity from post one; and not enough people are willing to call them on it.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think there's some good arguments in defense of this focus on Rolfe's part.

Given her previous posting history, I really don't. It's an attempt to avoid responsibility for the implications of her position, and her previous statements with regard to transmen.

Quote:
Men are, by and large, more than privileged enough to fight for transmen out of men's spaces if they want. Rolfe isn't obliged to address that concern, just because she's addressing a women's concern.

Except that, if you read similar previous threads, she has already brought up transmen as a pre-eminent women's concern. Go read the thread about "lesbian erasure". Numerous pages of her ranting about how the existence of transmen was a conspiracy to erase the existence of lesbians by forcing them to transition to male bodies. Really disturbing stuff.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you actually arguing that tampon-thievery is an important issue that needs addressing ahead of all other conversations in this thread?

We're arguing that the reason such an irrelevant aside was injected into this conversation at all needs to be addressed rather than dismissed, since it's clearly evidence of the mindset and goals of those who brought it up in the first place.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And that's been the biggest problem with Rolfe's and other anti-trans crusaders (and they spare me the "some of my best friends are" nonsense for a change, you're not fooling anyone) contributions -- they're being given a free pass on a great deal of woo used to support their crusading. So much of what they've contributed has been religious-right conspiracy theories, long-debunked medical and psychological pseudo-science, outdated and superseded medical theory and practice, rare outliers painted as representative (Texas sharpshooter fallacy), and flat assertions unsupported by any hard evidence. And their supporters are given them a free pass on the crazy because of their general agreement with the goals -- eliminating transpeople, or at least keeping them suitably marginalized and closeted.
You should really look up the term "psychological projection."
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry, I lost track of what you're actually trying to argue, with all of the sarcasm. Could you restate your point in plain terms?
No, you are just going to have to read it again. Consider it a test, which you already failed once.

Quote:
Are you actually arguing that tampon-thievery is an important issue that needs addressing ahead of all other conversations in this thread?
Well it's one the reasons why, according to Rolfe, we cannot allow trans-women to use the same restrooms as biological females. That seems like a pretty ******* important issue because its concrete effects on society.

Again i should note here that, in the country i live in, individual public restrooms are more often than not meant for everyone irrespective of their sex. If there was any significant problems with allowing men, women and anything in between (or without) to share the same public restrooms you'd expect there to be actual examples of this. Instead we have hypothetical nightmare scenarios dream't up by someone who's obviously far from reasonable.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:12 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
I'm far from being that sure.

"The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

Whatís more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms."

link
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:16 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I'm far from being that sure.

"The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

Whatís more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms."

link
Unisex isn't the same thing as allowing transwomen into women's rooms, though. Are the assaults cited by transwomen, or even men pretending to be transwomen, or are they by cis men?
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:16 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I'm far from being that sure.

"The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

Whatís more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms."

link
Or several cases of male sex offenders in prison who suddenly decided they were trans, got moved to the female prison, and immediately raped some inmates. But why bother with empirical observations when you can just put your hands over your ears and shout "la la la I can't hear you, it's all just hypothetical!" What was that again about how easy it must be to lead a life completely unburdened by reality...
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:17 AM   #385
wareyin
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I find the very idea that my penis is somehow inherently more threatening/dangerous/inappropriate in some situations then the penis of someone who "identifies as a woman" both ludicrous and insulting.

If a dude... just a dude walked into the women's shower room at the local Y and started soaping up his twig and berries next to all the naked women... it would be wrong and that's where the conversation would stop. The women wouldn't be given the third degree about justifying why, they wouldn't be accused of hatred, they wouldn't be accused of fear (even if fear was their primary motivator, that fact wouldn't be used as an accusations against them as if they did something wrong), and that would be it. The conversation would stop at that point.

Rolfe's... obvious laundry list of issues and the existence of real hatred and bigotry toward non-gender confirming people doesn't change that.

But I know, know "Shut and do what you're told cis-white-hetero-male."
Have you ever been to a gym with a changing room? Because in my experience, the situation you are describing with women all in some communal open space, naked and lathering up around each other does not exist. Gyms have individual shower stalls, with walls and either a door of some kind or a shower curtain, or both.

This whole line of argument of forcing women to either undress in front of men, or of showering with men is crap wording designed to cause emotional reactions. I made it through my entire school career without once getting naked in the changing room, nor have I ever stripped down in the changing room at a gym.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:18 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unisex isn't the same thing as allowing transwomen into women's rooms, though. Are the assaults cited by transwomen, or even men pretending to be transwomen, or are they by cis men?
Given that under the (proposed in the UK) law cis men will also be given access to female-only facilities, what does it matter? It makes every facility a unisex facility.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:19 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think the root of the problem here is fear. Some are afraid of what these "others" intend, and what they may do. This is what drives these sometimes-bizarre speculations about perverted activities, and the paranoia centering around violation of "reserved spaces". The questions are: are these fears legitimate, ie grounded in realism? If so, is accomodating these fears of greater worth than accommodating transgender people? My answers are no and no.
I think this argument is needlessly passive. Rolfe has been clear and detailed about what she thinks the problem is.

An active form of your argument would be to tell Rolfe directly that you think the root of the problem is that she's afraid. But is that a claim you're actually prepared to defend?
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:21 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Or several cases of male sex offenders in prison who suddenly decided they were trans, got moved to the female prison, and immediately raped some inmates. But why bother with empirical observations when you can just put your hands over your ears and shout "la la la I can't hear you, it's all just hypothetical!" What was that again about how easy it must be to lead a life completely unburdened by reality...
And this happens so frequently, and prison is an environment close enough to the real world, that this should compel policy?

Around six thousand people a year are killed by lightning strikes, that's way higher than sex-change-prison-rape. I assume therefore you never venture outside a Farady cage?
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:22 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever been to a gym with a changing room? Because in my experience, the situation you are describing with women all in some communal open space, naked and lathering up around each other does not exist. Gyms have individual shower stalls, with walls and either a door of some kind or a shower curtain, or both.

This whole line of argument of forcing women to either undress in front of men, or of showering with men is crap wording designed to cause emotional reactions. I made it through my entire school career without once getting naked in the changing room, nor have I ever stripped down in the changing room at a gym.
Well then what does it matter so bloody goddamn much if you're in the room you "identify" as then? Just go in the men's room and imagine the stalls around you are filled with whatever gender you identify as.

Again as always in this argument it is vitally important that the people get to be in the space set aside for the gender they identify as... and the counter argument to everything is "Oh it's no big deal because it's not like it matters."

If it's no big deal it's no big deal. If it's a big deal it's a big deal. Pick one or the other.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #390
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And this happens so frequently, and prison is an environment close enough to the real world, that this should compel policy?

Around six thousand people a year are killed by lightning strikes, that's way higher than sex-change-prison-rape. I assume therefore you never venture outside a Farady cage?
6000? That's more than are killed by school shootings, let's go sell some AR-15's to kids then
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:26 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Have you entirely missed the OP?

Have you entirely missed the geographical distinction between Massachusetts and Iowa? (It's about 1,000 miles.)

Quote:
Or are you trying to pull some self-fulfilling prophecy: "We've made it legal for guys to be in the women's facilities and look, we've received no complaints of guys being illegally in the women's facilities!"

Sure, that must be it. Once something is established as legal or illegal in Massachusetts, people immediately stop publicly complaining about it. We're just odd that way. Like that time King George explained how not paying tax on tea was illegal, so everyone just shrugged and went along with it.

Or maybe there's some other difference between MA and IA. Let's see. All kinds of problems in a state where anti-trans political provocateurs are motivated to cause problems. No problems in a state where they aren't. Can we solve this mystery of the ages?
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:28 AM   #392
wareyin
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well then what does it matter so bloody goddamn much if you're in the room you "identify" as then? Just go in the men's room and imagine the stalls around you are filled with whatever gender you identify as.

Again as always in this argument it is vitally important that the people get to be in the space set aside for the gender they identify as... and the counter argument to everything is "Oh it's no big deal because it's not like it matters."

If it's no big deal it's no big deal. If it's a big deal it's a big deal. Pick one or the other.
I didn't claim it was no big deal. I pointed out that getting your info on changing rooms from porn isn't going to give you an accurate idea of what goes on in real changing rooms.

That said, if women aren't even supposed to be comfortable stripping down to their bra in front of <evil scary voice>men</evil scary voice>, then why should a transwoman have to do so in the men's changing room?
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:28 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just want to interrupt at this point to say that when Rolfe brought it up, she did not say that any of the people who have this fetish are trans.

She said that such people's behaviour was aided by the new attitude that it's not okay to complain about men coming into women's toilets.

Post #51, if you want to look back.

You should look up:
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
autogynaephiles
.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:29 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think this argument is needlessly passive. Rolfe has been clear and detailed about what she thinks the problem is.

An active form of your argument would be to tell Rolfe directly that you think the root of the problem is that she's afraid. But is that a claim you're actually prepared to defend?
If you wish to argue do it yourself, don't try to incite others to do so.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:31 AM   #395
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Around six thousand people a year are killed by lightning strikes, that's way higher than sex-change-prison-rape. I assume therefore you never venture outside a Farady cage?

If only there was a way to figure out how many of the six thousand are transsexuals. That would give us an idea of how much nature/God hates them.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:32 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
6000? That's more than are killed by school shootings, let's go sell some AR-15's to kids then
Depending on jurisdiction I believe those products are legal to purchase above a certain age. To hold your analogy true to your position on the topic you would have to argue for a complete gun ban based on the misuse of guns by a small percentage of the population.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:33 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Sure, that must be it. Once something is established as legal or illegal in Massachusetts, people immediately stop publicly complaining about it. We're just odd that way. Like that time King George explained how not paying tax on tea was illegal, so everyone just shrugged and went along with it.
People clearly haven't stopped publicly complaining about it, have you somehow missed that entire referendum about it just a year ago? What you said was that there were no reports from issues in female-only facilities, but given that the issues which would be reported are no longer illegal that's what we call a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Depending on jurisdiction I believe those products are legal to purchase above a certain age. To hold your analogy true to your position on the topic you would have to argue for a complete gun ban based on the misuse of guns by a small percentage of the population.
And to hold your analogy true, we should have no protections in place against anything that would make less than 6000 victims per year. How many people die in plane crashes per year? Less than 6000? Down with air travel safety regulations! Also, you might not have noticed, but plenty of places do put gun bans in place because of misuse by a small percent of the population - see New Zealand after the Christchurch shooting, for one.
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Old 29th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That said, if women aren't even supposed to be comfortable stripping down to their bra in front of <evil scary voice>men</evil scary voice>, then why should a transwoman have to do so in the men's changing room?
You know what... I don't care. At this point I just don't care anymore.

I'm just tired of "Nobody is allowed to be scared/uncomfortable/whatever around anyone BUT straight cis-men."

If you're a man and there's a gay man in your locker room and it bothers you, you're a homophobe.

If you're a woman and there's a penis in your locker room that's attached to someone who "identifies" as a woman and that bothers you, you're a transphobe.

If you're a woman and there's a penis in your locker room that's attached to someone who "identifies" as a man and that bothers you... well that's just magically different. That's just common sense. Penises attached to men have to be kept in check to prevent random rape breakouts apparently.

I don't care about the solution anymore at this point, just pick on at random, I don't care. Here *Picks solution out of hat* "Hereforth all public bathing, toiletry, and similar spaces are segregated via 'Attached Earlobes' and 'Unattached Earlobes.'" There, we'll go with that.

I just care that straight cis men being the only bad guy are not part of it.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:35 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Have you ever been to a gym with a changing room? Because in my experience, the situation you are describing with women all in some communal open space, naked and lathering up around each other does not exist. Gyms have individual shower stalls, with walls and either a door of some kind or a shower curtain, or both.

This whole line of argument of forcing women to either undress in front of men, or of showering with men is crap wording designed to cause emotional reactions. I made it through my entire school career without once getting naked in the changing room, nor have I ever stripped down in the changing room at a gym.
We must go to different gyms.

And I'm certain we went to different schools, because everyone I went to school with got naked several times a week, but that was in the old days, before the childhood obesity epidemic.

I can't speak for what happens in the women's locker rooms, but in the men's locker rooms there are naked guys, and there are a whole lot of guys in their underwear.


In fact, even though I haven't been in the women's locker rooms while they are in use, I'm pretty sure that there are disrobed females in there. Do you know why I think that? Because otherwise there would be no point in having a locker room.


Why do people do this? "Oh....that never happens anyway, so it doesn't matter." Fine. Then abolish locker rooms and changing rooms because they are irrelevant to the entire conversation. What's the point of having a locker room if no one ever takes off their clothes?


I think the real answer is that people do, in fact, take off their clothes, and I think everyone knows that.
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