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Old 6th August 2019, 08:51 PM   #81
Venom
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
ftfy

Rhetoric and racism are not synonymous.

Dictionary.com
I don't believe you can put racist white supremacism in the category of 'just talk'.
What's wrong with my description?

You don't have to be a white nationalist or supremacist to share their talking points, which are often not overtly racist.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:58 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
What's wrong with my description?

You don't have to be a white nationalist or supremacist to share their talking points, which are often not overtly racist.
You're asking a question I clearly answered in the post you are objecting to. Look at the definition of rhetoric and tell me how the hateful crap that spews out of Trump's mouth, echoed by his followers is merely rhetoric.

If you think that's what rhetoric means you need to review that definition a few more times.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:43 PM   #83
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What the political leanings were of the shooters is only relevant if they did the shooting because of their politics.

Texas shooter appears to have been motivated by hate and racism. It is probably not going to be possible to know if he did the shootings because of Trumps' rhetoric or not, but the fact he quotes Trump is just part of the narrative of the current administration and Trump himself - and that is what is important to take note here.

The other dude appears to be just a complete nut who lost his ****. In this case a completely different discussion should ensue around gun control. This individual is quite possibly a good example of why not everyone should be allowed to own a gun legally.

The discussion around free speech and if said speech should/could be used to take away that dudes guns for me is simple. Anyone who appears to be planning to do some mass murdering with his legal guns should have his right to own a gun removed - you can spin it has infringing his right if you like - his right should be infringed IMO. It doesn't matter if the decision to remove his guns was because of what he said or wrote or if he likes walking naked down main street with two 6 guns strapped to his waist. If he looks to be unstable and dangerous he should have his weapons removed. To argue otherwise is just insane and those people should probably not be allowed to own guns either.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:05 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
What the political leanings were of the shooters is only relevant if they did the shooting because of their politics.

Texas shooter appears to have been motivated by hate and racism. It is probably not going to be possible to know if he did the shootings because of Trumps' rhetoric or not, but the fact he quotes Trump is just part of the narrative of the current administration and Trump himself - and that is what is important to take note here.

The other dude appears to be just a complete nut who lost his ****. In this case a completely different discussion should ensue around gun control. This individual is quite possibly a good example of why not everyone should be allowed to own a gun legally.

The discussion around free speech and if said speech should/could be used to take away that dudes guns for me is simple. Anyone who appears to be planning to do some mass murdering with his legal guns should have his right to own a gun removed - you can spin it has infringing his right if you like - his right should be infringed IMO. It doesn't matter if the decision to remove his guns was because of what he said or wrote or if he likes walking naked down main street with two 6 guns strapped to his waist. If he looks to be unstable and dangerous he should have his weapons removed. To argue otherwise is just insane and those people should probably not be allowed to own guns either.
mhmm.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:07 PM   #85
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Since when is having a kill list of people to shoot part of the political left?
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:11 PM   #86
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What we are not being told is where the shooters were shopping for their clothes and who their favorite bands were, so we know who to boycott to prevent future shootings.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Quote:
To argue otherwise is just insane and those people should probably not be allowed to own guns either.
mhmm.
That last sentence was a little tongue in cheek. But possibly a love and adherence to keeping guns for everyone no matter what makes me question the motivation a little.

Personally, and this does sound patronizing I know, I think the American public are being hoodwinked by the gun lobby. Many other countries run perfectly ok with fewer guns and/or more controls. In any other respect (road deaths, Cancer, obesity and heart disease) the government treats these issues as national problems/epidemic due to the numbers involved.
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Old 7th August 2019, 06:56 AM   #88
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What do we do about immigrants?

Looney extreme leftwinger: Make them all citizens!!!!!

Looney extreme Trumpwinger: Shoot'em!!!!!!

Yeah, that's almost the same.
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Old 7th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So the Dayton shooter apparently had some "leftist" ideas and FaceBook likes. While the Texas shooter was probably a Trumpist anti-immigration screecher. *YAWN* So ******* what..
So the trumpkins can use it as a pathetic whataboutism so they can derail this discussion, too, that's what.
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Old 7th August 2019, 10:21 AM   #90
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The frequent mass shootings in the USA are not primarily a result of favoring a particular political philosophy. They are not primarily a result of the quantity or types of firearms that are available. They are not primarily a result of violent video games, sexually frustrated young men, racial or religious bigotry, or even metal illness. They are the result of a disfunctional and fearful society peculiar to the USA as described so eloquently by TragicMonkey in another thread:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
7. A strange cultural psychosis where despite living in the world's sole superpower in an era of unprecedented wealth, comfort, and technological advancement, people seem overwhelmed by constant fear. We live longer and better than any humans before us and most of the world at the moment, yet so many of us are consumed with terror of sinister forces, enemies within and without, and bizarre conspiracies.
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Old 7th August 2019, 11:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Since when is having a kill list of people to shoot part of the political left?
The SLA specifically targeted Marcus Foster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Foster

Foster was assassinated on November 6, 1973 by members of the Symbionese Liberation Army. The SLA claimed they killed Foster because of his alleged support of a plan to create a student identification card system in Oakland that proponents claimed would help keep non-student drug-dealers off campus. In reality, Foster had opposed the identification cards and had worked to water down the plan. The SLA also objected to police officers in the schools, but again they were mistaken as to Foster's position; Foster had stated that he would not allow police officers in the schools. Foster was shot eight times with hollow-point bullets that had been packed with cyanide

I don't know if they had some official hit list
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Old 7th August 2019, 11:51 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The **** are you talking about now Bob? Please make sense.
That's like asking a fish to stop swimming.
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Old 7th August 2019, 03:07 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The SLA specifically targeted Marcus Foster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Foster

Foster was assassinated on November 6, 1973 by members of the Symbionese Liberation Army. The SLA claimed they killed Foster because of his alleged support of a plan to create a student identification card system in Oakland that proponents claimed would help keep non-student drug-dealers off campus. In reality, Foster had opposed the identification cards and had worked to water down the plan. The SLA also objected to police officers in the schools, but again they were mistaken as to Foster's position; Foster had stated that he would not allow police officers in the schools. Foster was shot eight times with hollow-point bullets that had been packed with cyanide

I don't know if they had some official hit list
It's a bit of a worry when you need to go back over 45 years to find an answer
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Old 7th August 2019, 03:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's like asking a fish to stop swimming.
Life is a lot better on this site if you put certain people on your ignore list.
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Old 7th August 2019, 03:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's a bit of a worry when you need to go back over 45 years to find an answer
Nice Dodge.
BStrong was showing that the extreme left can be just as violent as the extreme right...something a lot of people here have trouble accepting.


From roughly 1970 to 1980 there were a number of left wing terrorist groups trying to wage "revolutionary Guerilla warfare " in the US. The SLA is the most notorious because of the massive media coverage of the Patti Hearst Kidnapping, although a Puerto Rican Radical group the FALN was a lot deadlier..they racked up the biggest body count.
Strongly recommend this book by Bryan Burroughs "Days Of Rage" on that topic; he wrote "Public Enemies" the best book on the John Dillenger era outlaw gangs of the 1930's.

https://www.amazon.com/Days-Rage-Und...=UTF8&qid=&sr=


You know, nothing drives me more crazy on a site of alleged "critical thinkers" then the double standard so many have: their belief the evil exists ONLY on the side they oppose.
If ...heaven forbid...Trump gets back in I fully expected some of the extreme left to go the SLA/Weather Underground route.
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Old 7th August 2019, 03:44 PM   #96
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What about the Weather Underground?
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Old 7th August 2019, 04:04 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The frequent mass shootings in the USA are not primarily a result of favoring a particular political philosophy. They are not primarily a result of the quantity or types of firearms that are available. They are not primarily a result of violent video games, sexually frustrated young men, racial or religious bigotry, or even metal illness. They are the result of a disfunctional and fearful society peculiar to the USA as described so eloquently by TragicMonkey in another thread:
And a dysfunctional and fearful society that is emboldened by a racist and fear mongering president that also has easy access to guns, especially assault type weapons, is the perfect recipe for them to act out on that fear.
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Old 7th August 2019, 04:59 PM   #98
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Gee, I play some pretty violent video games like the Original Call of Duty (lost all interest when it left World War 2) "Half Life" and the "Bioshock" games. Does that make me evil?
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:04 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nice Dodge.
BStrong was showing that the extreme left can be just as violent as the extreme right...something a lot of people here have trouble accepting.
Can be, and have been at times, but aren't now.

The most basic difference between the extreme left and that the extreme right is that the extreme right ideology is based on violence, while the extreme left ideology isn't.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:09 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gee, I play some pretty violent video games like the Original Call of Duty (lost all interest when it left World War 2) "Half Life" and the "Bioshock" games. Does that make me evil?
It depends on whether you're playing on a console or a PC.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:11 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nice Dodge.
BStrong was showing that the extreme left can be just as violent as the extreme right...something a lot of people here have trouble accepting.


From roughly 1970 to 1980 there were a number of left wing terrorist groups trying to wage "revolutionary Guerilla warfare " in the US. The SLA is the most notorious because of the massive media coverage of the Patti Hearst Kidnapping, although a Puerto Rican Radical group the FALN was a lot deadlier..they racked up the biggest body count.
Strongly recommend this book by Bryan Burroughs "Days Of Rage" on that topic; he wrote "Public Enemies" the best book on the John Dillenger era outlaw gangs of the 1930's.

https://www.amazon.com/Days-Rage-Und...=UTF8&qid=&sr=


You know, nothing drives me more crazy on a site of alleged "critical thinkers" then the double standard so many have: their belief the evil exists ONLY on the side they oppose.
If ...heaven forbid...Trump gets back in I fully expected some of the extreme left to go the SLA/Weather Underground route.
OK, so historically you can find an actual radical left. We were trying to stop a needless war, and we were right to do so (see the Pentagon Papers).

How is that relevant to today's issues? Does it make the right wing feel better? Does it dilute the white nationalism that is demonizing minorities and immigrants?

Vietnam War protests tu quoque is a hollow argument.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Can be, and have been at times, but aren't now.

The most basic difference between the extreme left and that the extreme right is that the extreme right ideology is based on violence, while the extreme left ideology isn't.

But the basic idea..that the Glorious People's Revolution justifies anything ..is always there in extreme left ideology.
But thanks, you just provided a beautiful example of ideological blinders.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:20 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But the basic idea..that the Glorious People's Revolution justifies anything ..is always there in extreme left ideology.
But thanks, you just provided a beautiful example of ideological blinders.
One of us has blinders. The other clearly sees the difference between the extreme left and extreme right and isn't bound by a need to be an enlightened centrist.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:20 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, so historically you can find an actual radical left. We were trying to stop a needless war, and we were right to do so (see the Pentagon Papers).

How is that relevant to today's issues? Does it make the right wing feel better? Does it dilute the white nationalism that is demonizing minorities and immigrants?

Vietnam War protests tu quoque is a hollow argument.

And you go off on a tangent again.

I was not talking about legititmate protests, I was talking about the violent groups like the Weather Underground, the SLA, the FANL, the Black Liberation Army etc.
You seem to be pretty sensitive about any criticism of the left.
Sorry, but the left in the 60s' produced it shares of crazies.That is just plain history.
At times I wonder if you really read the posts you are responding to before responding. You know you have a reputation here for going off half cocked whenever you feel your political beleifs are being challenged.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you go off on a tangent again.

I was not talking about legititmate protests, I was talking about the violent groups like the Weather Underground, the SLA, the FANL, the Black Liberation Army etc.
You seem to be pretty sensitive about any criticism of the left.
Sorry, but the left in the 60s' produced it shares of crazies.That is just plain history.
At times I wonder if you really read the posts you are responding to before responding. You know you have a reputation here for going off half cocked whenever you feel your political beleifs are being challenged.
In fact, all of those groups are excellent examples of the fact that we don't treat right wing terrorism as seriously as any other form of terrorism, even terrorism that kills and hurts considerably fewer people.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:23 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
One of us has blinders. The other clearly sees the difference between the extreme left and extreme right and isn't bound by a need to be an enlightened centrist.

Not surprised by this response. Extremist always hate moderated more then they do other extremists.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:24 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not surprised by this response. Extremist always hate moderated more then they do other extremists.
What kind of extremist are you then?

If you were trying to say that the left doesn't like centrists, you would be correct. We don't like you guys because historically, you always tend to support the fascists. That's what your constant "bothsideisms" do, after all.

We don't hate you more than the right, though. We are simply constantly disappointed by you.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:25 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
In fact, all of those groups are excellent examples of the fact that we don't treat right wing terrorism as seriously as any other form of terrorism, even terrorism that kills and hurts considerably fewer people.

Oh really?
You can ask Tim McVeigh about how gently we treat right wing terrorists.
Or the guy who drove the truck into the demonstrators on Charlottesville, and who will spend the rest of his life in the slammer.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:26 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
What kind of extremist are you then?

I see the idea of being a moderate has not place in your ideological universe.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:27 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh really?
You can ask Tim McVeigh about how gently we treat right wing terrorists.
Or the guy who drove the truck into the demonstrators on Charlottesville, and who will spend the rest of his life in the slammer.
Wasn't talking about criminal punishment. Want another go?
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:27 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh really?
You can ask Tim McVeigh about how gently we treat right wing terrorists.
He's not really in any condition to answer, though.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:28 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the idea of being a moderate has not place in your ideological universe.
If moderate means seeing anti-fascism and fascism as equally bad and two sides of the same coin, no it has no place. Mainly because it's ******* stupid.
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:33 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If moderate means seeing anti-fascism and fascism as equally bad and two sides of the same coin, no it has no place. Mainly because it's ******* stupid.
If the Anti Fascist have a Soviet/Mao ideology..as some of them do...., you are damn right I don't see much difference. The Gulag in the end is no better then the Concentration Camps.
They both lead to the same place, just by a different road.
And no, I am not saying all anti fascist protestors are the same. But foolish to deny some of them have a totalitarian ideology. If they and the Neo Nazis beat up each other, good for the rest of us.
But you seem to have a problem with free speech anyway, so...……..
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Old 7th August 2019, 05:37 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It depends on whether you're playing on a console or a PC.
PC.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 7th August 2019, 06:16 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Or the guy who drove the truck into the demonstrators on Charlottesville, and who will spend the rest of his life in the slammer.
A week ago, Republican lawmakers were calling for a group to be declared a terrorist organization. Remind me, was it the group represented by the driver, or the group represented by his victims?
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Old 7th August 2019, 08:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If the Anti Fascist have a Soviet/Mao ideology..as some of them do...., you are damn right I don't see much difference. The Gulag in the end is no better then the Concentration Camps.
They both lead to the same place, just by a different road.
And no, I am not saying all anti fascist protestors are the same. But foolish to deny some of them have a totalitarian ideology. If they and the Neo Nazis beat up each other, good for the rest of us.
But you seem to have a problem with free speech anyway, so.....
Racism is only part of one of the two ideologies - you should make a distinction between Communism and National Socialism as ideologies and as real world examples.
You could envision a decent type of Communism. You can't with National Socialism.
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Old 7th August 2019, 11:30 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If moderate means seeing anti-fascism and fascism as equally bad and two sides of the same coin, no it has no place. Mainly because it's ******* stupid.
Antifa and White Supremacists are equally idiots in my book and neither is likely to get anywhere, but Antifa can rely on useful idiots who will refuse to accept any equivalence between the two groups of thuggish buffoons.
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Old 7th August 2019, 11:36 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Antifa and White Supremacists are equally idiots in my book and neither is likely to get anywhere, but Antifa can rely on useful idiots who will refuse to accept any equivalence between the two groups of thuggish buffoons.
I refuse to accept something that doesn't exit.

the false Anti-fa / White Supremacist dichotomy is just another misguided "Fair and Balanced" attempt at objectivity - at best.
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Old 8th August 2019, 06:04 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Antifa and White Supremacists are equally idiots in my book and neither is likely to get anywhere, but Antifa can rely on useful idiots who will refuse to accept any equivalence between the two groups of thuggish buffoons.
There have been a number of mass shootings by white supremacists. I don't know of any similar acts by Antifa-inspired folk. (There was, of course, the ballpark shooting of Steve Scalise, but I don't know that the shooter was influenced by Antifa.)

Regardless of whether you regard their basic idiocy as equivalent, Antifa has not committed any violence on a scale similar to that of white nationalists. Hence, they aren't really equivalent in this important respect.

Just to be clear, I don't support Antifa in the least. But I don't see the equivalence you think only idiots deny.
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Old 8th August 2019, 06:20 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post

Regardless of whether you regard their basic idiocy as equivalent, Antifa has not committed any violence on a scale similar to that of white nationalists. Hence, they aren't really equivalent in this important respect.
Antifa would assert in their history they have killed many, many more people. They say things like they are the extension of world war 2. So the bombing of germany is on them.
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