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Old 13th August 2019, 12:20 AM   #81
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The Late Show with Stephen Colbert:
Epstein Death Sets Off Wild Wave Of Conspiracy Theories

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The Daily Show with Trevor Noah also mentions Trump's conspiracy theory:

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And Late Night with Seth Meyers:

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Old 13th August 2019, 12:36 AM   #82
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Are all the Epstein Clones in the tanks on his Island accounted for?
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:56 AM   #83
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Meh. Supposedly the jail staff were short-handed and overworked link


If that's true these guys are going to tired and pissed off and looking to do the minimum. Seems the simplest provisional explanation to me.



Though I did snort at "Epstein's suicide was a big surprise.......especially to him."
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Old 13th August 2019, 05:23 AM   #84
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I do think it was a bit suspicious when ElChapo became his cellmate.
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:29 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If there is a conspiracy to do him in it need not be a full cloak and dagger job with a hired eastern European hitman infiltrating the prison then waiting for just the right time. It could be simply a deal where they "accidentally" leave material that could be used for suicide then "accidentally" have a lapse in guard shifts overnight.



I mean that would just seem to me to be the most parsimonious means of doing it. The most likely explanation is that he just exploited incompetence to off himself outside of anyone else wanting it to happen.



But, still, I'm going to be mighty curious what all the investigations turn up.
I agree with your scenario: guy apparently wants to commit suicide and is alleged to have tried it unsuccessfully a few days before. Many people, ranging from prison guards with young daughters to very powerful people at the top of the criminal justice and political system agree with him: he would be bettter dead vs. alive. So what is so hard to accidentally omit a few extra precautions: give him a sheet, no cell mate, and a substantially reduced schedule of checks by guards. Not very different from many normal prisoners. And then lots of these people are pleasantly surprised one morning....

Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.
Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:25 AM   #87
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I'm first going to say that, in all probability, Hanlon's razor applies, and this was a suicide, enabled by incompetence of the prison staff.

However, I think it is conceivable that somebody higher up dropped some hints to the prison staff that it would be convenient if Epstein died. It is, IMO, much more likely that this took the form of not making an effort to prevent a suicide than an actual murder In the unlikely event that this is the case, the question is, who might that be? Epstein had connections with both the Trump and the Clintons. We know which of those is currently in power, and there is some evidence that Trump had some idea of what was going on, though no evidence that I'm aware of that he actually participated. I'm sure Trump supporters will counter that it could have been deep state operatives dong the bidding of the Clintons. In any case, it's highly unlikely that there is any record of such instruction, and we will never know for sure.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
<snip>
there is some evidence that Trump had some idea of what was going on, though no evidence that I'm aware of that he actually participated. I'm sure Trump supporters will counter that it could have been deep state operatives dong the bidding of the Clintons. In any case, it's highly unlikely that there is any record of such instruction, and we will never know for sure.
What do you infer by "some idea of what was going on" in reference to what? You failed to support any statement here. Yes Trump has tweeted that the Clintons are somehow responsible.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:45 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
What do you infer by "some idea of what was going on" in reference to what? You failed to support any statement here. Yes Trump has tweeted that the Clintons are somehow responsible.
I'm referring to what I've read in a few places about Trump having said at some time in the past that Epstein had a lot of girls and "likes them young". I don't have a source, and I don't know how accurate that is, or how much Trump actually knew. As I said, I think it is by far most likely that Epstein was allowed to commit suicide by nothing more than the indifference of the prison staff. However, it does seem to me that there is at least some possibility that ether or both Trump and the Clintons had something to hide. I realize that "cui bono" by itself is not evidence that anything criminal actually was done by either. I'm merely speculating that such a thing is at least remotely possible.

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Old 13th August 2019, 08:49 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Many people, ranging from prison guards with young daughters to very powerful people at the top of the criminal justice and political system agree with him: he would be bettter dead vs. alive. So what is so hard to accidentally omit a few extra precautions: give him a sheet, no cell mate, and a substantially reduced schedule of checks by guards. Not very different from many normal prisoners. And then lots of these people are pleasantly surprised one morning....

Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.
Yes the LIHOP crackpot conspiracy theory. Thinking caps off, tinfoil hats on!
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:51 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
In the unlikely event that this is the case, the question is, who might that be? Epstein had connections with both the Trump and the Clintons.
You do know that they are all merely pawns of the worldwide Jewish cabal? Right?
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:22 AM   #92
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I don't think most people know how boring it is to work security, let alone long hours supervision of a single jail inmate.

I see a determined pretrial inmate, as history shows, succeeding when the cracks widen even a little.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You do know that they are all merely pawns of the worldwide Jewish cabal? Right?
Well sure, but for some reason, that view seems to be somewhat unpopular around here. Maybe because it's pure, unadulterated bovine feces.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:53 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.
I envision something more like some hints verbally passed down the chain of command, nothing that would leave a record, or that could even be construed with certainty, even if reported, to allow suicide. Mind you, I think it is far more likely that Epstein was determined to kill himself, and took advantage of laxness or indifference on the part of the prison staff, but I don't think it's totally beyond the realm of possibility that the laxness or indifference was encouraged. If so, it was not smart on the part of prison staff to act on such, if it actually happened, as they will bear the brunt of the blame for the suicide, though I wouldn't be surprised if the warden (or whatever the head honcho of the prison is called) to be demoted, or transferred to a job with little responsibility.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:00 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.
I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes the LIHOP crackpot conspiracy theory. Thinking caps off, tinfoil hats on!
I didn't think about the lizard people! Ah - indeed. But did they kill Epstein, wa Epstein one of them, or both??
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:09 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.
Federal pensions are based on years of service and the average of the average of the highest three years' salary, so a promotion a few years before retirement can be worth a significant amount of money.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:11 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.
You are correct. It's likely that the most that will come out of an investigation will be some recommended changes in policy, which may or may not ever be implemented.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:13 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm referring to what I've read in a few places about Trump having said at some time in the past that Epstein had a lot of girls and "likes them young". I don't have a source, and I don't know how accurate that is, or how much Trump actually knew. As I said, I think it is by far most likely that Epstein was allowed to commit suicide by nothing more than the indifference of the prison staff. However, it does seem to me that there is at least some possibility that ether or both Trump and the Clintons had something to hide. I realize that "cui bono" by itself is not evidence that anything criminal actually was done by either. I'm merely speculating that such a thing is at least remotely possible.
Then I suggest that you are only spreading rumors which you are unable to substantiate.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:59 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Then I suggest that you are only spreading rumors which you are unable to substantiate.
I recall reading the same, and may check later to locate a link.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:59 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Then I suggest that you are only spreading rumors which you are unable to substantiate.
Maybe. It was something I had read on what I would consider to be a legitimate news outlet, not a Facebook share or something. Not that that's a guarantee that it's true.

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Old 13th August 2019, 01:03 PM   #102
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Oh for fu...

Here. For the "SOMEBODY SHOWED ME EXACTLY WHERE HE SAID IT THAT EVEN THOUGH I KNOW HE SAID IT I'M JUST STALLING" crowd.

He made the statements in 2002 in a phone conversation with New York Magazine writer Landon Thomas Jr. He said it. It happened. This event occurred.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh for fu...

Here. For the "SOMEBODY SHOWED ME EXACTLY WHERE HE SAID IT THAT EVEN THOUGH I KNOW HE SAID IT I'M JUST STALLING" crowd.

He made the statements in 2002 in a phone conversation with New York Magazine writer Landon Thomas Jr. He said it. It happened. This event occurred.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/
Thanks although I never indicated thought that statement to be false, I just don't like it when someone can't back up what they say.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:38 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Thanks although I never indicated thought that statement to be false, I just don't like it when someone can't back up what they say.
Silly me. Here I had been thinking you were acting like a bully, and enjoying it.

In the scheme of things, it appeared to be an important issue with you, for reasons I don't understand. A quick reference to what I and others recalled, did not, I believe, warrant your attitude.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:43 PM   #105
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Here's a pretty wild one:

Quote:
After the first attack on Jeff Epstein in prison, I knew that one of two things would happen: He would either be "suicided" or he would go along with a smear story directed against Bill Clinton. Obviously, Epstein did not get with the program. He probably thought he could beat the rap again. Thus, he had to be eliminated.

When the smear hits -- when the "evidence" against Clinton seems beyond dispute -- never forget: The Trumpist Right has firmly established control of the Justice Department and the intelligence community. Trump also has aid from Russia, Israel, and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the considerable power wielded by the resurgent forces of international fascism.
This is not some obscure liberal blog; it's currently linked at Memeorandum. The writer has a tendency towards these oddball theories regarding any Democrat accused of scandal; a few years back he was claiming that Anthony Weiner did not do the things he was accused of. When Weiner confessed, Cannon had the classic CT response: he incorporated the confession into the theory. Weiner was being blackmailed by people who had something else on him (apparently something worse than sending dick pix to 15-year-old girls).
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:32 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Silly me. Here I had been thinking you were acting like a bully, and enjoying it.

In the scheme of things, it appeared to be an important issue with you, for reasons I don't understand. A quick reference to what I and others recalled, did not, I believe, warrant your attitude.
Your comment was no different than others, so no I didn't give your post much weight. Now if you had included a link then I would have thanked you instead of reading about my attitude.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:20 PM   #107
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What if, by striking him down, Epstein becomes more powerful than we can possibly imagine?
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:27 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
What if, by striking him down, Epstein becomes more powerful than we can possibly imagine?
Hahahahaha

What if he raped children?
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:45 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
What if, by striking him down, Epstein becomes more powerful than we can possibly imagine?
What if he was just a more visible cog in a larger machine. Cut off one head, two more will take its place.

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Old 13th August 2019, 08:46 PM   #110
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Epstein Kills Himself (was Trump cutting funding to the Bureau of Prisons caused Epstein suicide?)
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hahahahaha

What if he raped children?
Goodness!

Lighten up, friend. Itís just a hackneyed Star Wars gag, not the Spanish Inquisition.
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Old 14th August 2019, 01:44 AM   #112
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"Thirty-Two Short Stories About Death in Prison" via PuppyCow in another thread.



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12786366
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:01 AM   #113
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About 38 minutes before news outlets first reported Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison, a 4chan user published a detailed post about it.

Quote:
“[D]ont ask me how I know, but Epstein died an hour ago from hanging, cardiac arrest. Screencap this,” read the post, which was published at 8:16 a.m. alongside an image of Pepe, the green frog that has become a mascot for right-wing internet trolls.

That message was posted 38 minutes before the first tweet about Epstein’s death from Aaron Katersky, an ABC News reporter, at 8:54 a.m. Five minutes later, the main ABC News account tweeted an article about Epstein's death.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...ein-4chan-post
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Old 14th August 2019, 05:28 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
About 38 minutes before news outlets first reported Jeffrey Epstein's death in prison, a 4chan user published a detailed post about it.



https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...ein-4chan-post
Now we know what the guards were doing when they were supposed to be watching Epstein.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:16 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
What do you infer by "some idea of what was going on" in reference to what? You failed to support any statement here. Yes Trump has tweeted that the Clintons are somehow responsible.
That's what affirmed my thought that The PDJT may have had something do do with it. Everybody knows he's famous for that kind of attempted deflection. But with his lackey Barr in charge of the investigation, nothing will ever come of it.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:07 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
"Thirty-Two Short Stories About Death in Prison" via PuppyCow in another thread.



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12786366
Ken White has been railing against the "how could this happen in our jails" crowd. This piece is an excellent piece of writing that demonstrates that Epstein's death is not unusual in the least. Incompetence and indifference to human suffering in jail is the norm.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:52 AM   #117
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Yes, it's pretty scary!
(I expected fiction when I saw the title "Thirty-Two Short Stories ...")
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Thanks although I never indicated thought that statement to be false, I just don't like it when someone can't back up what they say.
Well, I suppose that when I'm using Google News, and reading articles from a variety of sources, I could take notes on every article I read and the source, but I really don't have the time. I definitely lend less credence to theHill.com and Fox News or Express.uk than I do to some other sources.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Here's a pretty wild one:



This is not some obscure liberal blog; it's currently linked at Memeorandum. The writer has a tendency towards these oddball theories regarding any Democrat accused of scandal; a few years back he was claiming that Anthony Weiner did not do the things he was accused of. When Weiner confessed, Cannon had the classic CT response: he incorporated the confession into the theory. Weiner was being blackmailed by people who had something else on him (apparently something worse than sending dick pix to 15-year-old girls).
If there was some sort of conspiracy to kill Epstein (and I think it is far more likely that there was not), I would suspect Trump before the Clintons, for the simple reason that they are in power and the Clintons are not, and the same logic would apply had Hillary won the election. No doubt right-wing believers in a conspiracy will go with "Deep State" hogwash and claim it was the Clintons. It appears that there is a possibility that either or both of them could have something to hide, to which my reaction is "Make a big batch of popcorn and enjoy the show".
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Old 14th August 2019, 10:12 AM   #120
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"medically accurate" said one FB user, as if there are so many choices to commit suicide with in prison.
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