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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 29th October 2020, 01:03 PM   #2721
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Maybe we’re talking at cross-purposes. If I understand it correctly, every case of new Coronavirus in the past few weeks (if any at all) have been recorded as arrivals from abroad and all are being placed in quarantine. Is that not the official word?
No, I posted the official data, and Phantom Wolf gave the details.

Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Sounds good. I assume that all commercially-designated ports of entry are highly monitored, yes? What about fishing villages and such? Is there any feasible chance they can be accessed “under the radar”?


Have you ever heard of maps, or maybe even Wikipedia?

We don't have fishing villages, and at 2000 km from the nearest land, we're in no danger of unannounced arrivals.
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Old 29th October 2020, 02:41 PM   #2722
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Sounds good. I assume that all commercially-designated ports of entry are highly monitored, yes? What about fishing villages and such? Is there any feasible chance they can be accessed “under the radar”?
As Atheist noted, we don't have fishing villages, so that's not a worry. We have testing and customs at our main ports, which is how the vast majority of people will arrive.

It's also not easy getting here in a smaller vessel, the closest major landmass being Australia, and even then the Tasman is not a sea to be taken lightly as many have found to their peril. Getting here from further away is a major mission that only the most prepared of sailors would want to attempt, and they tend to be the ones that let you know where they are and when they will be arriving so if they don't you know where to look for them. On top of that, we do have Orions who are out looking for vessels to make sure that they are obeying the rules, and don't need help, so if you were trying to get here clandestinely, you'd have to avoid them too, and good luck outrunning a plane, with equipment designed to detect people in the water miles away, in anything that could safely cross the Pacific.

Assuming you did get here undetected, well landing anywhere outside the main harbours is a great way to get you noticed and reported, just ask the French on that one. In the mid-1980's they sent over a team to blow up a Nuclear Protest ship owned by Greenpeace, called The Rainbow Warrior. While they did achieve that goal because at the time no one thought an allied country would commit an act of terrorism on a friendly nation's soil, the speed at which it was solved and the culprits remaining in the country were caught was astounding. Turned out that the police knew their entire movements because Kiwis are bloody nosey and thought the pair was a bit sus, so reported them to the police all the way through their journey. The only thing that allowed them to get away with it was that until the attack, they didn't actually do anything illegal. So yeah...
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 29th October 2020 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 29th October 2020, 08:13 PM   #2723
Clutch Cargo
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
As Atheist noted, we don't have fishing villages, so that's not a worry. We have testing and customs at our main ports, which is how the vast majority of people will arrive.

It's also not easy getting here in a smaller vessel, the closest major landmass being Australia, and even then the Tasman is not a sea to be taken lightly as many have found to their peril. Getting here from further away is a major mission that only the most prepared of sailors would want to attempt, and they tend to be the ones that let you know where they are and when they will be arriving so if they don't you know where to look for them. On top of that, we do have Orions who are out looking for vessels to make sure that they are obeying the rules, and don't need help, so if you were trying to get here clandestinely, you'd have to avoid them too, and good luck outrunning a plane, with equipment designed to detect people in the water miles away, in anything that could safely cross the Pacific.
It is relatively simple then. There aren’t many places as easily controlled as that. Maybe, just maybe, New Zealand will be the last man standing. But then the “All Blacks” will fade into disuse.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Assuming you did get here undetected, well landing anywhere outside the main harbours is a great way to get you noticed and reported, just ask the French on that one. In the mid-1980's they sent over a team to blow up a Nuclear Protest ship owned by Greenpeace, called The Rainbow Warrior. While they did achieve that goal because at the time no one thought an allied country would commit an act of terrorism on a friendly nation's soil, the speed at which it was solved and the culprits remaining in the country were caught was astounding. Turned out that the police knew their entire movements because Kiwis are bloody nosey and thought the pair was a bit sus, so reported them to the police all the way through their journey. The only thing that allowed them to get away with it was that until the attack, they didn't actually do anything illegal. So yeah...
I remember it well. I think it was a Portuguese or Brazilian left onboard who perished, and other than a short-lived boycott of French products (here in my country) France pretty much got away with it.
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Old 29th October 2020, 09:43 PM   #2724
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Exclamation

WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19)

Data last updated: 2020/10/29, 5:15pm CET

Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:

U.S. 72,042

Australia 13

Sweden 0

Denmark 1,017

New Zealand 6



A trend is forming.

* U.S. is up a thousand new cases. Up a thousand, down a thousand, up a thousand, down a thousand.
* Australia lost one.
* Sweden, good old Sweden, maintains zero new cases reported. Now, that’s what I call an “elimination”!
* New Zealand has gained 4 new cases.

** Now for the bad news. I mean really bad news. Denmark. With a tiny country & population of less than 6 million Denmark has managed (once again) to skyrocket up to more than a thousand new cases of the Coronavirus in the last hour! What are they playing at? They’ve come down hard on the use (that is to say mandatory use) of face masks and yet they are breaking new records day after day of contracting the virus. Logic? Where’s the logic? Perhaps I know. Considering the response I’ve got over the days and weeks, (dare I say months?) I feel certain that the readers of this thread are committing voluntary ignorance. That’s not to say that I have the answers that no one else has or that I know the truth while everyone else is necessarily wrong. No, that’s not it. What it is, is the rejection of sensible and logical discussion on the two major factors that ought to be clear to everyone who’s concerned with the spread of the Coronavirus

1). How the virus is spread
2). preventing its spread

Born of this is the question of distancing by either space and/or buffer. And why should the situation in Denmark and Sweden be particularly important? Because they have opposing methods, the results of which speak to us ….. if only we listen.

Denmark is registering numbers of newly infected victims that are generally slightly higher, per capita, than those of Sweden. For the sake of this post let us say they are “equal”. But how can that be if the two countries have opposing methods? In a nutshell, Denmark is imposing the mandatory use of face masks. A good idea, right? Sweden has no obligation to wear a face mask. Bad, huh? But again the results are the same. Why is this? DISTANCING. Sweden has greatly increased the number of public transport. Well! I’ve said this before. Many times. None-the-less it is being ignored as a worthy point of discussion. What I call selective, voluntary ignorance. But the fact of Sweden’s superior public transportation system offers an interesting possibility in explaining how the virus is spread and what prevention is available. It comes down to this: Freedom of movement vs. cheap-skating. And it also puts into question the value of the face mask itself. To put it very simply (perhaps naïvely) people in close-quarters with face masks are becoming victims of the virus just as often as people who distance themselves but wear no face mask at all. Yes, I understand very well that there is any number of variants to consider (such as differences in mentality between law-abiding Swedes who devoutly observe and respect recommendations of the state vs. the general maverick attitude of the Danish population) BUT this distancing vs. face mask must be one of great importance.
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Old 29th October 2020, 11:23 PM   #2725
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The Swedish duality paradox

Notice that the imaginary dichotomy "distancing vs. face mask" is a Swedish invention and as such very popular in Sweden.
Much like the wave–particle duality, the idea is that you can't have both:
Quote:
Wave–particle duality is the concept in quantum mechanics that every particle or quantum entity may be described as either a particle or a wave.
It is so simple in the rest of the world, but in Sweden it seems to be almost impossible to think outside of this box, which their national epidemiologist has helped them build around their attempts to understand the reality of the pandemic: either/or, distancing vs. masks: There can be only one. As soon as you pick one, your choice eliminates the other option.

Meanwhile, in the real world, there may be reason for cautious optimism that distancing and face masks is a better approach than distancing or masks. Sweden has twice as many new cases per day as the other four Nordic countries combined, and considering how little Sweden still tests, there is reason to assume that the difference may be even bigger.

Elimination would still be the superior strategy, but the politicians and many epidemiologists still don't seem to understand this.

Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 29, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 586 (5,934) 3,254* 57 *according to SVT.se
Denmark: 123 (716) 860 17
Finland: 64 (354) 188 10
Norway: 52 (281) 495 8
Iceland: 35 (12) 48 1
Iceland has 1,006 active cases, Faroe Islands 15, New Zealand 70.
The Faroe Islands have 45 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Two days with no new Covid cases (KVF.fo, Oct. 29, 2020)
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Old 29th October 2020, 11:32 PM   #2726
dann
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
We don't have fishing villages, and at 2000 km from the nearest land, we're in no danger of unannounced arrivals.

Come on!
Don't tell us that visitors from the other Pacific islands aren't arriving in their primitive outrigger canoes all the time, bringing fresh fish and fruit as peace offerings and all sorts of exotic viruses!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 01:56 AM   #2727
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
..... Have you ever heard of maps, or maybe even Wikipedia?
Yes, I've heard of both.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
.We don't have fishing villages, and at 2000 km from the nearest land, we're in no danger of unannounced arrivals.
Neither maps nor Wikipedia says anything about the likelihood of unannounced arrivals. If you know of an edition of either that provide such information perhaps you could link it here. There's a good fellow.
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Old Yesterday, 02:42 AM   #2728
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand

From the first paragraph:

Quote:
New Zealand is about 2,000 kilometres (1,200 mi) east of Australia across the Tasman Sea and 1,000 kilometres (600 mi) south of the islands of New Caledonia, Fiji, and Tonga.
Speaks volumes about the likelihood of unannounced arrivals to me. You'd have to be particularly dense not to understand why, and monumentally disingenuous to pretend not to understand why.
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 AM   #2729
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Series of articles about the Covid-19 long-haulers in Sweden

Ny studie: Så många svenskar kan ha långtidscovid - En av tjugo var sjuka i mer än åtta veckor (Aftonbladet.se, Oct. 30, 2020)
New study: This many Swedes may have long-term Covid-19 - One in twenty was ill for more than eight weeks

Svåra hjärnsymtom kan drabba även de med mild covid (Aftonbladet.se, Oct. 30, 2020)
Serious brain symptoms may affect even people with mild Covid-19

Lisa, 42, har varit sjuk sedan i maj: ”Hjärnan stänger ner” (Aftonbladet.se, Oct. 30, 2020)
Lisa (42) has been ill since May: ”The brain shuts down”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old Yesterday, 02:57 AM   #2730
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
* Sweden, good old Sweden, maintains zero new cases reported. Now, that’s what I call an “elimination”!
When are you going to stop this ********?


Quote:
* New Zealand has gained 4 new cases.
4 more cases coming in from overseas and in managed isolation (not in the community). Some may have come from Sweden.


Quote:
Considering the response I’ve got over the days and weeks, (dare I say months?) I feel certain that the readers of this thread are committing voluntary ignorance.
Some perhaps, but not me. I agree with that Denmark has a problem (almost certainly partly due to Swedes bringing contagion across the border) and are not handling it as well as they could. However your constant dishonest denial of Sweden's own problem makes this moot.

Quote:
Sweden’s superior public transportation system offers an interesting possibility in explaining how the virus is spread and what prevention is available. It comes down to this: Freedom of movement vs. cheap-skating. And it also puts into question the value of the face mask itself. To put it very simply (perhaps naïvely) people in close-quarters with face masks are becoming victims of the virus just as often as people who distance themselves but wear no face mask at all.
Yes, given the limited effectiveness of masks this is obvious. The best solution is extreme social distancing and masks when closer. Even better would have been elimination before the infection rate got high enough to need masks, but it is too late for that now.

Quote:
Yes, I understand very well that there is any number of variants to consider (such as differences in mentality between law-abiding Swedes who devoutly observe and respect recommendations of the state vs. the general maverick attitude of the Danish population) BUT this distancing vs. face mask must be one of great importance.
The correct mentality is 'isolate and social distance as much as possible, and wear a mask when this is not possible' as well as other measures such as frequent hand-washing and avoiding touching things. However this very difficult to do well when not in full lockdown, especially in densely populated areas. The whole of Europe is now finding out that not being super-cautious and eliminating the virus before opening up was a mistake.

The problem is not so much a general maverick attitude as thinking you can get away with a certain level of virus in the community. Both Denmark and Sweden are finding out that anything less than zero tolerance is a recipe for disaster. Sweden may have the advantage of more people 'devoutly observing and respecting recommendations of the state' but if the state doesn't make its 'recommendations' clear enough then a certain proportion will not observe them devoutly enough. That is not the fault of the people, but the state. If all Swedes were devout then you wouldn't have any new cases, but we all know you do.

With the majority of Swedes devoutly avoiding the virus you should have eliminated it faster than less devout countries if the state applied sufficient other measures to do so. But it didn't. The result is that it squandered its advantage, and you have similar (actually probably much higher, given inadequate testing) cases than 'maverick' Denmark. That is nothing to crow about.
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Old Yesterday, 03:30 AM   #2731
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
We did have a case that was picked up outside of Managed Isolation about 2 weeks ago, he was a marine electrician that caught it while working on a ship that had come in from overseas. He passed it on to several colleges resulting in a small cluster. Close contacts to the cluster were isolated and tested and the last one of them to test positive was a week ago...

We still have major testing operations in the community to try and pick up any cases that might sneak through the defenses, and that testing is showing that there is no current infection spreading within the community, hence why we are at Alert Level 1 with no internal restrictions at all to our daily lives.
Here's the thing. New Zealand may be naturally isolated from other countries by a large body of water, but normally a large number of people enter and leave by air each day. You still have a border that needs to be strictly policed to avoid letting the virus in.

And then it does anyway. You were virus free for what - 100 days? Once the virus gets in it makes no difference how isolated you are from other countries. At that point the important measures required are early detection, swift and complete contact tracing, massive testing of everyone who could possibly be infected, strict isolation of all contacts, and lockdowns to limit transmission until the virus is once again eliminated.

Obviously that will be harder in countries with land borders, but if everybody does it then it will still be effective. The important thing is to limit spread and stamp out the virus wherever outbreaks occur. We think of the US as being one country whereas Europe is many, but the virus doesn't discriminate. If the whole of Europe had a consistent plan for elimination the lack of geographic isolation between countries wouldn't have been a problem.
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Old Yesterday, 03:41 AM   #2732
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I haven't seen this reported in any of the mainstream media in Sweden, so I don't know how reliable it is. The first link appears to be to a Norwegian right-wing site:

Tegnell politianmeldt for uaktsomt drap (Document.no, May 14, 2020)
Tegnell reported to the police for manslaughter

Doctor Whistleblower/Jon Tallinger (Facebook, Oct. 13, 2020)
They can be said to be anti-Islam and against immigration from Islamic countries. They don't appear to be a conspiracy theory site, though, and don't seem to be making things up from thin air. The owner, Hans Rustad, actually used to be a prominent member of AKP, a communist party here in Norway, but it isn't unusual for far left people to go to far right.
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Old Yesterday, 03:46 AM   #2733
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
..... I agree with that Denmark has a problem (almost certainly partly due to Swedes bringing contagion across the border) .....
Yes, I’m sure that’s true. All of them registered in New Zealand and Australia are likely from Sweden, about 97% (or is it 98%?) of those in Denmark, and overall most of Europe and the United States. I’m not sure about Russia but it is common knowledge (I believe) that the origins of the Coronavirus (initially thought to be from China) actually began in Sweden. Those are unsubstantiated figures but you know that.

I feel obliged to remind you, however, that Sweden is the only nation that consistently turns in a ZERO number of newly infected residents (as the official statistics from WHO will attest) and that must certainly be considered an “elimination”- the only one of its kind. So, although you are almost certainly correct in placing the blame of global Coronavirus onto Sweden, the country is non-the-less the most successful nation in the world at "eliminating" it. Wouldn’t you agree? If memory serves me correctly the last time I quoted WHO registering any new cases of the virus in Sweden was at the beginning of October. I'm not 100% sure about that so I'll get back to you when I've had a chance to confirm it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:55 AM   #2734
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
********
Yes. Here it is:
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
LATEST UPDATE. according to WHO Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19),
Data last updated: 2020/10/1, 5:15pm CEST


Newly reported cases in the last 24 hours:


Sweden 397
Since then ..... zero.
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Old Yesterday, 04:15 AM   #2735
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Maybe you need to look at the Swedish WHO data again, from the WHO COVID 19 website. It appears they are having record numbers of daily cases.

For example:

Oct 27 1,072 cases in Sweden.

WHO Sweden.jpg
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Old Yesterday, 04:50 AM   #2736
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Originally Posted by Nipsome View Post
Maybe you need to look at the Swedish WHO data again, from the WHO COVID 19 website. It appears they are having record numbers of daily cases.

For example:

Oct 27 1,072 cases in Sweden.

Attachment 43447
No doubt about it but at least I got everything else right.
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Old Yesterday, 05:16 AM   #2737
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Thursday, the readers of DN were told to forget about dinner invitations and parties:
Anders Tegnell: Ställ in middagar och fester (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 29, 2020)
Anders Tegnell: Stop dining and partying

And Friday, there’s an educational story about Sweden’s (maybe) first super-spreader event in March when 70 of 100 partygoers were infected at a birthday party, one of the two ending up on ventilators being the 47-year-old host:
”Känns som att vi var på coronans ground zero i Stockholm” (DagensNyheter.se, Oct. 30, 2020)
”It feels as if we were at the ground zero of the coronavirus in Stockholm”

The party took place the day after the Public Health Agency had declared that there was no community spread and Anders Tegnell had told people in Sweden that only bad luck could lead to the virus spreading in Sweden.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 07:57 PM   #2738
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
It is relatively simple then. There aren’t many places as easily controlled as that. Maybe, just maybe, New Zealand will be the last man standing. But then the “All Blacks” will fade into disuse. ...


.
I know it's a side issue, but why would the All Blacks fade into disuse?
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Old Yesterday, 08:39 PM   #2739
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I know it's a side issue, but why would the All Blacks fade into disuse?
Duh!

Because NZ is cut off from the rest of the world by our Communist Leader, Jacinda Zedong Stalin.

(The fact that the ABs are playing in Australia tonight, after playing Aussie here twice this month, isn't worth mentioning. Nor that we had full crowds in NZ - can't disrupt the narrative.)
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Old Yesterday, 11:38 PM   #2740
dann
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Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Oct. 30, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 587 (5,938) 3,188* 59 *according to SVT.se
Denmark: 124 (719) 1.191 17
Finland: 65 (358) 344 10
Norway: 52 (282) 498 10
Iceland: 38 (13) 78 4
Iceland has 996 active cases, Faroe Islands 14, New Zealand 68.
The Faroe Islands have 32 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
All incoming travellers, regardless of where they are travelling from, should take a follow-up Covid-19 test six days after the test taken upon arrival in the country.
All travellers urged to undergo follow-up tests (KVF.fo, Oct. 30, 2020)

I have been trying to find the statistics for number of tests and percentage of positives, but this is all I could come up with.
Denmark: number of tests yesterday 71,000, percentage of positives 1.67.
Sweden: number of tests all of last week 167,725, percentage of positives not disclosed, but a graph (Figur 3) shows it for regions: FHM.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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