Split Thread: Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by steenkh

I wonder why you stopped coming to the spiritualist church because when you were constantly confirmed in your belief that spiritualism is true, then surely you had every reason to keep coming there?

I first lost contact because I moved away from London to a town without a spiritualist church. I have susequently moved again, and there is a church in my new town, I went there a few times several years ago, but have not bothered since. With all this talk about evidence I might start going again to see if I can get some. But of course it will still be anecdotal.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

With all this talk about evidence I might start going again to see if I can get some. But of course it will still be anecdotal.

A recording, or better yet, a video, would be more than just anecdotal.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

which suggests we don't have physical bodies in the spirit world. Now you're saying we do, and they can age not only forward but backward?

You also said we keep incarnating and then returning to the spirit world. Why would a baby continue to be a baby in the spirit world when it could presumably just go back to the "prime of life" body it had last time?

According to the theories I have heard at trance lectures we have a spirit body that is more refined than the physical body. But sex is neutral.
Our incarnations are in separate partitions of the soul body and we cannot go back to our past body when we reincarnate. So if we die as a baby that baby has to grow up in the spirit world. But we do remember all our past lives when we reach a state of enlightenment at the end of our cycle of incarnations.

[Pixel42]

Can I suggest if you do go again that you record the sessions? Not only would that be physical evidence of what took place it would also enable you to confirm the accuracy of your memory and count the misses (which you are less likely to notice at the time) as well as the hits.

[Joey McGee]

It's possible to conduct proper research on mediums. People have tried.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/how_no...fe_experiments

All it would take is one real medium on TV pulling detailed information Full names and birth dates of person after person. Instead we get people on TV going "I have someone here with a name that starts with T" and "She liked roses" etc etc

[Donn]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Yea thanks, I remember another experience that convinced me that esp exists.

Is contradicted by:

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If you want to know the truth, I am not really sure of anything anymore.

So are you convinced that ESP exists, or are unsure?

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I once had a friend that lived down the road, and one night I was very upset about something and I was having what might be described as a panic attack.

I will suggest that your friend knew you to be a fragile, panicky fellow. He knew the signs and pre-empted your attack, getting there when you needed him.

A good friend, but not ESP.

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Iamme

dlorde, see my answer above.
Kindly stop riding me.

I see you've acknowledged your error, thanks. If you think being asked to substantiate assertions about posts in the thread is 'riding' you, you may be in the wrong forum...

That said, it's a great example of just the kind of memory glitches we've been talking about - nothing deliberate or malicious, just simple human error.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Scorpion

Ever the optimist, I do so hope that the doubts you have mentioned, and the fact that you are here on JREF, will bring you to the firm ground of reality. Also, may I say that, if you reach the clear truth that there are no messages from some afterlife, do not spend time on regret for the time invested in spiritualism etc. As a wise Aunt of mine used to say, 'You did the best you could at the time and took the decisions that were right for you at the time,' and regretting those decisions will not, cannot, change things. All the things we have done in life make us who we are now ... still keeping on trying to do the best we can!

.
Right!
"Shoulda, woulda, coulda" only delays responding to similar situations later.

[SusanB-M1]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Karen and I have a playlist of favorite songs.

We met late in life.

While we often wonder how things would have played out had we met sooner, one song on that list is "Bless The Broken Road".

Maybe a bit heavy on the schmaltz, but when either one of us says "Broken Road", we know exactly what the other means.

I listened to it! How lovely to have that kind of relationship - whatever time in life it is. I am so pleased that both my sons havehappy relationships. I wasn't lucky enough but always knew that to be on my own was better than (another!) wrong choice.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

As a matter of fact, the more I remember of my experiences, the more convinced I become that I was right, and there is a spirit world.

.
Remembering is a problem. Your inner self will "improve" any past experience if it's dwelled on.
I can "remember" a lot of things from 70 some years ago, but are they real?
Without any ancillary documentation, .. diary, relatives, no long ago memory can be trusted to be as it remembered today.

[wardenclyffe]

I think I know myself well enough that I can say that if I attended a Spiritualist Church and received all kinds of important and messages from the other side, I would not stop going. Even if I went there for healing and the healing was done, I'd still want to attend for all the accurate messages. Even if there were no church in my town, I'd find a way to get to one. And if I finally moved to a town that had such a church, I would certainly become a regular and not just check it out a few times and then drop it.

Also, since I know about the Church's high overhead, I would do everything I could to help set up a test with a skeptical group which offered a big cash prize. I might even collect a finder's fee (which I'd donate [a portion of] to the Church).

I believe that that would be my experience. The fact that it is not Scorpion's experience is very telling, I think.

Ward

P.S. I have attended a Spiritualist Church, and I received no accurate messages.

[stanfr]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

A picture with a lot of sky in it.

Yeah, figured as much (darn, should have put money on it!)
I learned to paint as a kid by trying to recreate calendar photos, landscapes with a lot of sky-and-clouds scenes. Clouds remain one of my favorite subjects. Blue is a primary color and white, of course, is a good 50/50 bet.
So im guessing this was a cold read, maybe luke-warm if the reader knew anything about you or your style. You made the connection after the call--classic confirmation bias. I purposely made my tongue-in-cheek post abstract (all silly blue and white) because this would be the only example that might be of interest if it were a hit. You are simply ignoring the part of your picture that didn't consist of blue and white, to fit your bias. It's human nature. As for your 'not care much for it', well this is true for the vast majority of artists. I'm particularly hard on my own work--don't really care much for most of it--always think i can do better. Most of even the very best artists are really only known by their strongest work--generally only a very minute percentage of their entire boduy of work. So that part of the reading was almost a sure hit. Carry on...

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

To the best of my recollection the medium said the following.
" I have got your brother here" I said "No" The medium said "well he looks exactly like you". She then went on to say he had died in the war as a baby because there was no equipment in the hospital. I cannot remember the exact words but I do think she used the word "equipment" She then went on to say my brothers name, and that he had grown up in the spirit world.
He was studying to develop his intellect and he advised me to do the same, rather than allowing my head to be ruled by emotion. Which was an accurate reading of my personality.
When I asked my mother about it she said he died because there were no oxygen tents available because of the war.

So the psychic said that a baby in world war two died due to lack of equipment. that isn't exactly a specific thing. That would apply to me as well though it would be a great uncle. And I'm sure many other posters here could say the same.

This is what people mean when they talk about tactics to fake being psychic. It seemed specific to you, at the time but it is something that would apply to a huge percent of your generation, and even mine.

[thaiboxerken]

Scorpion, what's your excuse as to why there is no scientific evidence to support your claims?

[Joey McGee]

You missed it? If there was absolute proof of an afterlife we'd all start killing ourselves to get there. I guess somehow there is a gag-order by God on spirit guides.

[Daylightstar]

Scorpion, on page 8 I asked you:

Originally Posted by Daylightstar

What do you hope to communicate with such anecdotes?

Would you be so kind as to explain this please?

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by stanfr

Yeah, figured as much (darn, should have put money on it!)
I learned to paint as a kid by trying to recreate calendar photos, landscapes with a lot of sky-and-clouds scenes. Clouds remain one of my favorite subjects. Blue is a primary color and white, of course, is a good 50/50 bet.
So im guessing this was a cold read, maybe luke-warm if the reader knew anything about you or your style. You made the connection after the call--classic confirmation bias. I purposely made my tongue-in-cheek post abstract (all silly blue and white) because this would be the only example that might be of interest if it were a hit. You are simply ignoring the part of your picture that didn't consist of blue and white, to fit your bias. It's human nature. As for your 'not care much for it', well this is true for the vast majority of artists. I'm particularly hard on my own work--don't really care much for most of it--always think i can do better. Most of even the very best artists are really only known by their strongest work--generally only a very minute percentage of their entire boduy of work. So that part of the reading was almost a sure hit. Carry on...

Actually the painting was entirely blue and white, it was a largely sky but with a blue Buddha in the foreground. I do not think the medium had any way of knowing I was even an art student, let alone that I had done a blue and white painting a few days before.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Scorpion, what's your excuse as to why there is no scientific evidence to support your claims?

As I have said, we are incarnate for experience sake, and we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.
We are meant to learn by trial and error, action and reaction,cause and effect, which creates karmic consequences.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

As I have said, we are incarnate for experience sake, and we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.
We are meant to learn by trial and error, action and reaction,cause and effect, which creates karmic consequences.

Aren't you causing harm by telling people this, then?

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Aren't you causing harm by telling people this, then?

With no absolute proof, belief is a matter of faith.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I do not think the medium had any way of knowing I was even an art student, let alone that I had done a blue and white painting a few days before.

All I can say is that for a former art student you appear to have a very poor imagination.

Was there really nothing about your age and appearance that screamed "student"? As for the type, just how many science or engineering students, or even history students, do you think visit spiritualist churches? Are you absolutely sure there were no specks of blue and white paint on your hands or clothes?

If someone visits mediums regularly all of whom make astute guesses based purely on what they can see, what percentage are going to make the right astute guess? If they were really getting the information from your deceased relatives every single one would be surprisingly accurate, not just a few.

And that's all assuming no research whatsoever, not even talking to the other members or overhearing a conversation in the ladies loo ("that dreamy art student is here again, you know the one with the [describes you])".

[Fast Eddie B]

Scorpion,

So, souls can grow older if one dies young, and younger if one dies old?

Apparently in line with physical aging (or it's inverse), in line enough that the aged soul of a departed young person can develop physical characteristics to compare to another human being.

1) Why would a soul need any semblance to a corporeal being?

2) If a soul "exists", have you given any thought at all to the nature of its existence?

Do you see it as "energy", "field", material, or some other unknown "thing"*.

In any case, until you can articulate some proposed mechanism for your ideas, they really will remain idle and unfounded speculation to most critically thinking individuals. "Just so" stories, as it were.

That's clearly enough for a huge slice of humanity. So you're not alone.


*If any of the first three things listed, we seem to know enough about them that we should be able to detect them.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Scorpion,

So, souls can grow older if one dies young, and younger if one dies old?

Apparently in line with physical aging (or it's inverse), in line enough that the aged soul of a departed young person can develop physical characteristics to compare to another human being.

1) Why would a soul need any semblance to a corporeal being?

2) If a soul "exists", have you given any thought at all to the nature of its existence?

Do you see it as "energy", "field", material, or some other unknown "thing"*.

In any case, until you can articulate some proposed mechanism for your ideas, they really will remain idle and unfounded speculation to most critically thinking individuals. "Just so" stories, as it were.

That's clearly enough for a huge slice of humanity. So you're not alone.


*If any of the first three things listed, we seem to know enough about them that we should be able to detect them.

Theosophy teaches that our ultimate body is called the soul, or causual body.
It is a formless bubble of divine energy that separates us from God, and it is expandable, so can contain infinite memories. (But don't ask me how)
But we need a form to operate through so we have lower bodies, called the mental and the astral. Then we have the physical body during incarnations.

Between lives we inhabit higher planes of existence that have all kinds of environments like countryside and cities. I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

If someone visits mediums regularly all of whom make astute guesses based purely on what they can see, what percentage are going to make the right astute guess? If they were really getting the information from your deceased relatives every single one would be surprisingly accurate, not just a few.

I put it down to, that some mediums are better than others, just like some healers are more powerful than others. I could feel the healing energy from some healers, but nothing from others.

However I will admit that I had dissapointing results from two so called psychic artists. I went to the late Coral Polge three times, and she drew three pictures of people I did not recognize. Then I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

With no absolute proof, belief is a matter of faith.

Is it your contention, then, that people's behaviour is only limited by what they know for certain to be true? That people's behaviour is never limited by faith? Furthermore, is it your contention that nobody would claim to know for sure that God exists, or that they have absolute proof of his existence?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

I've heard it said that Katie Price is a really good singer.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Is it your contention, then, that people's behaviour is only limited by what they know for certain to be true? That people's behaviour is never limited by faith? Furthermore, is it your contention that nobody would claim to know for sure that God exists, or that they have absolute proof of his existence?

No.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I put it down to, that some mediums are better than others, just like some healers are more powerful than others.

The question is are mediums better than would be expected if they were just making astute guesses, supplemented by the occasional luckily (or surreptitiously) obtained fact. For the hit rate you describe the answer is clearly no. So that's what you should be putting it down to.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Donn

So are you convinced that ESP exists, or are unsure?

I have doubted everything in recent years, but the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

It is a formless bubble of divine energy that separates us from God, and it is expandable, so can contain infinite memories. (But don't ask me how)
But we need a form to operate through so we have lower bodies, called the mental and the astral. Then we have the physical body during incarnations.

Between lives we inhabit higher planes of existence that have all kinds of environments like countryside and cities. I have heard it said that the astral plane is as real as Charring Cross.

Sorry, Scorpion.

There's a pretty derogatory term floating around out there: Word Salad*.

I hesitate to use it, but it's the overall impression I get from your response.

"Formless bubble of divine energy" is quite devoid of meaning, with all it's major concepts undefined. As is "astral plane", "higher planes of existence", "incarnations".

Charring Cross exists in the real world in a manner that "astral plane" clearly does not. Regardless of what you've "heard it said". If you do not have the critical thinking tools to know the difference, you're in the right place. But you must open your mind to what people are saying here, not just repeating what others have told you.

If we're reduced to responding to every little bit of woo that you've heard said, then the conversation has become trivially uninteresting. Millions of sites exist to read about the kind of things you're positing here, with zero foundation. That's where I would be if I was interested in that sort if thing. Which, unless and until said positions have something evidential to support them, I'm not.

I will probably continue to monitor this thread for anything interesting, but I honestly have little hope for that.

Good luck with your belief system.


*I think this link exemplifies how Word Salad can seem superficially meaningful:
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

With no absolute proof, belief is a matter of faith.

It would seem that by even telling these anecdotes you are defying gods' will.

[The Shrike]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

. . . we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.

At least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, God goes out of his way to convince us that there is a spirit world (short of anything actually tangible, of course) precisely so that we will live our lives afraid of what he might do to us in retaliation for our indiscretions.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I have doubted everything in recent years, but the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

If ESP existed you would not need to feel it, because it could be easily demonstrated.

None of the experiences you have so far shared come within a country mile of justifying the conclusion that ESP exists.

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

... I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

So one rare seemingly concrete and verifiable fact from a 'psychic' turns out to be fake...

For critical thinkers, this raises concerns and confirms suspicions.

If Mariants really believed it was Japanese, it shows how badly overconfident belief can make people - he clearly hadn't confirmed for himself it was Japanese writing. He's unlikely to be unique, which would suggest that other mediums are likely to be wrongly confident they actually receive messages.

If Mariants was deliberately faking it, it shows just how confident he was that the marks would believe it without checking. That he picked Japanese - a language the English-speaking mark was unlikely to know, rather than a European language, suggests to me that he knew it was bull.

This also reinforces why mediums tend to give vague Barnum statements that are given specific meaning by the mark.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

"Formless bubble of divine energy" is quite devoid of meaning, with all it's major concepts undefined. As is "astral plane", "higher planes of existence", "incarnations".

What I have said makes sense to me. Mind you I have distilled my views from amalgamating ideas of theosphy, and ideas of spiritualism. Things I have heard at many trance lectures, and spiritualist meetings. Plus extracting ideas from occult books, of which I have a small library. Here is a link to a book on the causal body, which is obscure and complicated. Maybe you will think it is all word salad, and maybe it is.

http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/UserFi...___The_Ego.pdf

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by The Shrike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
. . . we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.

At least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, God goes out of his way to convince us that there is a spirit world (short of anything actually tangible, of course) precisely so that we will live our lives afraid of what he might do to us in retaliation for our indiscretions.

Exactly; I can't imagine that the knowledge that god "is looking over our shoulders" would have any more effect on believers' behavior (for good or bad) than their faith already does; for them, the two things are equivalent. How many times have you had someone proselytizing for their religion tell you "this isn't what I believe is true, it's what I know is true"?

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

... the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.

This is how episodic memory works; each time you recall a memory, it is modified afresh by your predilections, beliefs, opinions, etc., about the event. In this way, memories increasingly come to match and support your beliefs about how the events occurred and/or what they meant.

This is how old friends coming together can remember joint past episodes quite differently, even to the extent of which of them was the protagonist in some situation, but will generally come to an agreed version before parting with a revised memory.

If you want to discover the reality of psychics and mediums, memories are an unreliable source of information; look to the future. Approach readings and other sessions with skepticism, count the number of misses, count the accurate hits, treat generalities as irrelevant, don't give them clues, don't accept responsibility of finding some appropriate meaning for statements, question how specific facts might have been obtained. If they're really getting messages from the beyond, there should be no doubt at all about it, else what's the point?

If you feel some reluctance to take this approach, or it feels unfair, or an unwarranted test, ask yourself why you feel this way - if they can do what they say, they'll sail through your skepticism and demonstrate their powers beyond doubt. Many members of these forums have been through this process and discovered just how easily their trust and willingness to believe had been taken advantage of, and how what had seemed amazing knowledge of other realms turned out to be patter for the gullible.

The real universe around us is far more amazing than the frothy fantasies of spiritualism, and it's demonstrable and verifiable any time, on demand.

[George]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I think it unlikely that anyone else here has as much experience of psychic mediums as I have.

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Then I went to Ivor Mariants, another so called psychic artist and he totally blew it. He drew a picture of a japanese man that he said was a spirit guide, and then he wrote some supposed japanese writing on it. I took it to the japanese embassy to have it translated and they said it was not japanese writing. They even said it might be someone pretending to write japanese. So I have had experiences of fake mediums.

I note you used worldly means to debunk this character, your vast experience of psychic mediums was of no value here.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

No.

Right. So if people knowing about the spiritual plane is harmful to them because it may restrict their behaviour, then your telling people about the spiritual plane can be harmful to them if they believe you and therefore limit their behaviour.

If what you've said is true about spiritual progression, then the whole of existence would be a much better place if everybody was an atheist who didn't believe in life after death. That would allow people to progress further and faster.

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by tsig

It would seem that by even telling these anecdotes you are defying gods' will.

.
Gots to be careful doing that.
One of them said he is a jealous god, but others are probably also.
Faith in god1234 can be held against you when it's god5678 you meet in the spirit world!