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Old 9th May 2014, 06:54 AM   #561
Scorpion
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Well I spent another half hour last night trying to open my third eye. Or to be more exact, trying to open my brow chakra so that I could channel vision from the latent senses of my astral or mental bodies.
What happened was this. I started out seeing some dots of light, then I started seeing swirling blobs of light one after the other. They were not very bright and had no form to them, but I figure it is progress, and I will continue to try again tonight.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:12 AM   #562
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When you return, here's a post you may have missed: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=542
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:21 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Well I spent another half hour last night trying to open my third eye. Or to be more exact, trying to open my brow chakra so that I could channel vision from the latent senses of my astral or mental bodies.
What happened was this. I started out seeing some dots of light, then I started seeing swirling blobs of light one after the other. They were not very bright and had no form to them, but I figure it is progress, and I will continue to try again tonight.
Why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:28 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
When you return, here's a post you may have missed: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=542
Hi Don, I read your post, I see your points.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:30 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
It is too early to tell if I will ever see anything more than swirling light, but I intend to persevere in the hope of eventually seeing into higher dimensions.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:33 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What happened was this. I started out seeing some dots of light, then I started seeing swirling blobs of light one after the other. They were not very bright and had no form to them, but I figure it is progress, and I will continue to try again tonight.
I mentioned that's what I get under the influence of codeine. I go you one better by actually seeing images or moving pictures.

Interesting, but I see nothing "spiritual" about allowing my visual cortex to create these illusions.

The default position is that its a physiological phenomena or just a product of imagination, or a dream state. No third eye or spirits required.
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:37 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is too early to tell if I will ever see anything more than swirling light, but I intend to persevere in the hope of eventually seeing into higher dimensions.
How will you know if you've succeeded?
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:44 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
It is too early to tell if I will ever see anything more than swirling light, but I intend to persevere in the hope of eventually seeing into higher dimensions.
This does not answer my question at all, it indicates you being focused on your belief in a third eye, exclusively.

So again, why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:51 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
How will you know if you've succeeded?
I am assuming that success in seeing into higher planes, will bring with it evidence that they exist.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 9th May 2014 at 07:58 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:55 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
This does not answer my question at all, it indicates you being focused on your belief in a third eye, exclusively.

So again, why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
It may not be anything meaningful at this stage, but seeing swirls is one better than just seeing dots of light.

I just got out my copy of Rudolph Steiners book.
" Knowledge of higher worlds how is it acheived?"

I have had a copy for several decades without really reading it, so now would be a good time.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:57 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It may not be anything meaningful at this stage, but seeing swirls is one better than just seeing dots of light.

I just got out my copy of Rudolph Steiners book.
" Knowledge of higher worlds how is it acheived?"

I have had a copy for several decades without really reading it, so now would be a good time.
This, again, also does not answer the question:
So yet again, why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
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Old 9th May 2014, 07:58 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am assuming that sucess in seeing into higher planes, will bring with it evidence that they exist.
Such as?

I'm not trying to be difficult, Scorpion, it really is essential that you set success criteria in advance if you want meaningful results from your efforts.

If you don't it will be very easy to convince yourself that whatever actually happens is the evidence you seek, whilst to everyone not emotionally invested it seems utterly unremarkable.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:00 AM   #573
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Seen on a church sign:

"PRAY UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS"

Reminds me of that.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:07 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
This, again, also does not answer the question:
So yet again, why do you believe this is progress towards your belief in the existence of a third eye instead of an indication of a more mundane phenomenon like phosphenes?
It could be phosphones, or self hypnotic suggestion, or all kindsa stuff.
But it is also one step up on just seeing dots.

Ursula Roberts, the late spiritulist medium told us to look for a spot of light, and then try and expand it, as part of the process of developing seeing into higher worlds. That is what I am trying to do, so seeing something bigger than a dot is progress.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:09 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Such as?

I'm not trying to be difficult, Scorpion, it really is essential that you set success criteria in advance if you want meaningful results from your efforts.

If you don't it will be very easy to convince yourself that whatever actually happens is the evidence you seek, whilst to everyone not emotionally invested it seems utterly unremarkable.
I don't know what would be evidence, because I have not seen anything meaningful yet.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 9th May 2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:15 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know what would be evidence, because I have not seen anything yet.
How will you decide, if you do see something, whether or not it is evidence that you have succeeded in opening your third eye?
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:24 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It could be phosphones, or self hypnotic suggestion, or all kindsa stuff.
But it is also one step up on just seeing dots.
... so seeing something bigger than a dot is progress.
Seeing something bigger than dots does not rule out phosphenes and certainly is not automatically indicative of progress towards your belief of seeing with a third eye.

Your belief rules out mundane options, for you.

In my estimation, you will continue to 'experiment' with attempting to see with your claimed third eye, claiming to get incremental (assisting in creating a sense of sincerity) better results as you go along until you claim a certain degree of success, while then claiming that your claimed successful attempt to see with your claimed third eye was documented in this thread.

All this, of course, without the tiniest shred of evidence.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:26 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know what would be evidence, because I have not seen anything meaningful yet.
But you will be making a claim to that effect.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:27 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
How will you decide, if you do see something, whether or not it is evidence that you have succeeded in opening your third eye?
I was wondering that myself last night, while looking at swirly blobs.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:29 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
But you will be making a claim to that effect.
I will only tell the absolute truth about whatever happens.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:39 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
PartSkeptic...

About your "handle"...

If you're part "Skeptic", how do you define the other part?

I would hold that the antonym is roughly "credulous". Agree?

And if you're not in stasis, do you see yourself over time becoming more or less skeptical?

Not making fun - genuinely curious.
No problem with any fun. Good question. Part of me will always be skeptical of anything - including accepted science "fact". It is just a matter of probability. The "laws" of gravity are well known. I accept they work on a practical everyday situation. Are they absolute? I retain a small amount of skepticism, but in the absence of a better theory (with evidence) I am willing to just agree that it is the best theory, and use it.

When it comes to the Ultimate Reality I see that the existence of spirits and a God is a workable possibility. In other words, it seems to work a fair amount of the time. Not enough for me to have faith to the point that I cannot accept that I might be wrong.

Why am I like this? Because I had an experience in my teens where I was seriously ill and was an atheist. The doctors did not know what was wrong with me. I felt that if I only had unquestioning faith God might help me. I refused to believe with insufficient evidence, despite already having has some strange experiences that suggested the supernatural existed.

I was cured, and so was another guy my age, but he had put his faith in Jesus. When that faith was challenged he went crazy (literally) with the fear that he was being "tested" and would get sick again. I vowed to be a life-long doubter.

As far as stasis is concerned I have seen a lot in the last 4 years for me to accept that there is a fair probability that God and the supernatural exists. There are times I feel that I am totally wrong. I do not see myself moving from my present position. Even if I talked to a burning bush, or video-taped someone levitating, I would wonder how good my grasp of reality was.

If I was put in a group situation where everyone agreed that something was a fact, and they demonstrated it, I would still think that maybe, just maybe, there was a conspiracy to fool me. All a matter of personal assignment of probabilities.

Why do I post here? Not to convert anyone but to learn. I have experienced many belief systems, and have learned their strengths and weaknesses. Here I learn about atheism, and secular humanism. Also about the beliefs and logic of people like Scorpion, and how they respond.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:47 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
How can we tell that "sudden" and "unexpected" were not subjected to redefinition by you?
This would be more likely as no prior plausibility (nor meaningful evidence) exists for 'messages from spirits' or any other form of precognition, in contrast with redefinition of terms by staunch believers of the one or other irrational belief.


Do you often 'get messages' about people's imminent death?
No only two in my life. The other was about my sister who a week after the message fell down stairs and died. She was 66

There was no indication that my brother-in-law was ill or injured when I had the message. I emailed the details of the dream to myself and after the death I showed it to my husband as some sort of proof that the message was real

Last edited by mstricky; 9th May 2014 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 9th May 2014, 08:51 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Partskeptic. I have read the quran, in fact I have three english translations in book form and access to many other translations online. Not that this does me much good because muslims argue that I cannot know the quran unless I read it in Arabic. But I do not want to take this thread any further off the topic of spiritualism, as I have already been warned against doing that.
Debating the correctness of spiritual writing is not off-topic. I see a bunch of posts while I was phrasing my last post, so I am out of synch.

To argue that a comma, or a letter, or the language, invalidates the message is not correct. Judaism argues that one letter wrong invalidates a Torah scroll and it must be re-done. This is ritual for ritual sake.

An example is smoking the North American Peace Pipe. Some say that the ritual must be followed exactly. I watched and learned - did not do it myself. My experience is that all rituals can be changed. When one learns something new, you follow the recipe. Then changes can be made.

Only initiates who do not understand the forces at work follow precise ritual. Free yourself and look beyond the mantras once you master the techniques.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:00 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I will only tell the absolute truth about whatever happens.
Good luck. You seem honest enough.

In your signature you quote
"Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy"

How about a triangle with three 90 degree angles? Impossible? Only if one limits oneself.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:05 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I will only tell the absolute truth about whatever happens.
What you believe to be the truth.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:06 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am against the excesses of old-fashioned religion where clerics use fear for their own ends. I am also thankful that age has ended.

But today Islamaphobia is another fear-mongering tactic that allows death to be dispensed by hi-tech means, and without trial. Too bad if you happen live next to a target. What difference is there to priests roaming about looking for witches, and drones buzzing over one's head. The enemy must be destroyed - morally and/or ethically right? Justifiable?

If secular humanists are out to destroy the religions they despise most, and support such anti-religious hatred, then are such persons "more enlightened"?
.
If there's a "problem" with Muslims here in the US, it's quite underground.
Some of the shop owners at the Mall are Muslim. I talk to them when the occasion arises, and there's no hidden fear. Our society is quite integrated and it is super!
Where there are ethnic problems, oppression seldom achieves anything but more fear and oppression. But all the parties affected have to make an effort to achieve peace. It doesn't come with aggression.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:10 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
A good point.

Anecdote and personal experience can be the starting point for scientific exploration.

Starting point.

People found, anecdotally, that chewing on a willow bark seemed to ease pain. The scientific method first confirmed through double-blinded placebo-controlled tests, that it did seem to be effective. It then ferreted out the active ingredient, acetylsalicylic acid, and confirmed it's effectiveness and optimal doses.

Other people found, anecdotally, that like cures like and that diluting an ingredient 30c resulted in a substance with curative power. The scientific method confirmed, through physics and Avogrado's Number that the prior plausibility of such claims was nil, and then confirmed through double-blinded placebo-controlled tests, that it was not, in fact, effective.

And, don't forget, people in Salem found, anecdotally, that there were witches in their midst. And burned hanged them, and pressed one to death under a pile of rocks.
.
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Slight fix for accuracy.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:11 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Good luck. You seem honest enough.

In your signature you quote
"Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy"
...
In this case, two and two will be claimed to make six.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:13 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
In this case, two and two will be claimed to make six.
Actually I find that when all else fails. I can rely on logic.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:21 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by mstricky View Post
No only two in my life. The other was about my sister who a week after the message fell down stairs and died. She was 66
...
So we can't tell. Those were your only two hits?

Originally Posted by mstricky View Post
... I told my husband and a month after his brother died
Originally Posted by mstricky View Post
...
I emailed the details of the dream to myself and after the death I showed it to my husband as some sort of proof that the message was real
And suddenly an undocumented email enters the anecdote.
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:25 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually I find that when all else fails. I can rely on logic.
Do you mean the kind of 'logic' which is also called rationalization?
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Old 9th May 2014, 09:49 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
So we can't tell. Those were your only two hits?




And suddenly an undocumented email enters the anecdote.
How do you mean undocumented. I've still got it in a folder.
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:02 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Do you mean the kind of 'logic' which is also called rationalization?
I was thinking of cold logical deduction. I am quite prepared to dump any or all ideas that do not add up, or make sense.
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:06 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by mstricky View Post
How do you mean undocumented. I've still got it in a folder.
How can I tell?
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:09 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is too early to tell if I will ever see anything more than swirling light, but I intend to persevere in the hope of eventually seeing into higher dimensions.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
How will you know if you've succeeded?
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am assuming that success in seeing into higher planes, will bring with it evidence that they exist.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Such as?

I'm not trying to be difficult, Scorpion, it really is essential that you set success criteria in advance if you want meaningful results from your efforts.

If you don't it will be very easy to convince yourself that whatever actually happens is the evidence you seek, whilst to everyone not emotionally invested it seems utterly unremarkable.
It seems pretty obvious to me that it's the person making as much effort as Scorpion seems to be making (from a perceptible emotional investment in it) that will be responsible for any results he will get from it. IOW, it still won't be evidence for an objective "spirit world" if it's only subjective (and somewhat circular) wish-fulfillment on demand; as you say, the criteria for evidence, even for yourself, needs to be a little more stringent than "seeing what I hope to see, which will be whatever I see."

You can't eliminate observer bias from a sample size of only one; and Scorpion seems to be not only making no effort to eliminate his own bias, but to be actively depending on it.
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Last edited by turingtest; 9th May 2014 at 10:20 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:11 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was thinking of cold logical deduction. I am quite prepared to dump any or all ideas that do not add up, or make sense.
How about stuff that adds up to you but not to others?
Your idea about this claimed third eye does not make sense, and yet you pursue it while dumping ideas without proper consideration that do add up.
But perhaps not to you .....

Which is why I think your cold logical deduction will be of the rationalization variety.
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:17 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was thinking of cold logical deduction. I am quite prepared to dump any or all ideas that do not add up, or make sense.
If the only person to whom these ideas need to "add up, or make sense" is you, and your controlling criteria is going to be within the context of your belief in a "spirit world," then that's not "cold logical deduction"- it is, in fact, just about the definition of rationalization.
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Last edited by turingtest; 9th May 2014 at 11:01 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:18 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Seen on a church sign:

"PRAY UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS"

Reminds me of that.
.
Back when Teri Schiavo was in the news, the lack of faith healers pounding on the door of the hospital was remarkable.
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Old 9th May 2014, 10:20 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know what would be evidence, because I have not seen anything meaningful yet.
.
We who have conducted experiments in the real world know that no data from the experiment is a data point!
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Old 9th May 2014, 11:25 AM   #600
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Scorpion.

Just did some internet searches on the third eye. Interesting that ancient wisdom claimed that humans had a "third eye". It seems that the pineal gland has retinal cells, and can sense light and dark.

There were all sorts of descriptions as to what is associated with the "spiritual opening" of the third eye. Colors, shapes, emotions, human and not so human forms, other worlds, and a general increase in psychic abilities.

I got the impression that primary aim of many sites was to sell. Lots of words and awe and wonder. And some scary stuff. Enter the dungeon and experience the dragon.

With all the people I came across, the third eye was never really discussed. They simply saw spirits. Or they astral traveled. Or had NDEs. And there were a number were frauds who were out to impress others (and take their money).

I think that there might be something to this third eye, but I do not think it is something that can be turned on by training.

You might find that you experience visions because of auto-suggestion. Telling a hypnotized subject that there is a gorilla in the room is easy. Even afterward they have trouble with reality - saying that that DID see the gorilla.

Still, it is research of the kind that science promotes. The starting phase anyhow.
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