One less confederate monument to vandalize...

Mike! · 28th June 2017, 11:00 AM

The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html

Resume · 28th June 2017, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html

“Because what had happened with the vandalism to it, and the city wanted it removed, this way it will be preserved . . . It is a beautiful monument.” says Patsy Limpus, president of the United Daughters of the Confederacy Missouri Division and the St. Louis Confederate Monument Association.

Because nothing says beauty like civil war, treason, and the ownership of human beings.

ponderingturtle · 28th June 2017, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

“Because what had happened with the vandalism to it, and the city wanted it removed, this way it will be preserved . . . It is a beautiful monument.” says Patsy Limpus, president of the United Daughters of the Confederacy Missouri Division and the St. Louis Confederate Monument Association.

Because nothing says beauty like civil war, treason, and the ownership of human beings.

You need to remember the true beauty of the supremacy of the white race. Most of these monuments got put up to fight against integration after all. That is something that still makes the south proud.

mgidm86 · 28th June 2017, 01:07 PM

What did the monument depict? I can't tell from the images.

Resume · 28th June 2017, 01:24 PM

Confederate Memorial
https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial

Quote:

The Confederate Memorial, dedicated in 1914, features a 32-foot-high granite shaft with a low relief figure of “The Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy.” Below is a bronze group, sculpted by George Julian Zolnay, depicting the response of the South to this spirit as a family sends a youth off to war.

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th June 2017, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Confederate Memorial
https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial

Also:

Quote:

Beneath that is a quotation by Robert E. Lee: “We had sacred principles to maintain and rights to defend for which we were duty bound to do our best, even if we perished in the endeavor.”

Even as an intentionally sanitized piece it doesn't quite pass the smell test.

bigred · 28th June 2017, 06:29 PM

Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

Tsukasa Buddha · 28th June 2017, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by bigred

Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

Full of self-awareness too.

Resume · 28th June 2017, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by bigred

Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

Started right about post 7.

JoeMorgue · 28th June 2017, 07:25 PM

I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right.

Skeptic Ginger · 28th June 2017, 07:43 PM

I was sure this thread was going to be about this vandalized monument: Arkansas Vandal Destroys 10 Commandments Monument One Day After Installation

My eyes glazed over "confederate" in the thread title.

CaptainHowdy · 29th June 2017, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

Don't be too upset. It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments.

ponderingturtle · 29th June 2017, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Don't be too upset. It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments.

And it is only historical revisionists who won't read what the founders of the confederacy said who love these monuments.

Spindrift · 29th June 2017, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right.

Give them a break, it's not like they support treaso... oh nevermind.

Checkmite · 29th June 2017, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments.

Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed.

The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed.

It failed at this aim.

TragicMonkey · 29th June 2017, 04:26 PM

Wait, 'the Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy'? Not the Spirit of the Confederacy, but an Angel associated with it? Two supernatural beings, both Confederate? This is a confusing addition to the pantheon.

They should replace it with a monument representing the Ghost of the Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy. Or the Phantom of the Consciousness of the Intellect of the Ghost of the Angel of the Demon of the Manager of the Spirit of the Confederacy.

Meadmaker · 29th June 2017, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed.

The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed.

It failed at this aim.

DevilsAdvocate · 29th June 2017, 07:36 PM

The Phantom of the Consciousness of the Intellect of the Ghost of the Angel of the Demon of the Manager of the Spirit of the Confederacy...just...passed...byyyyyyyy! [jazz hands]

CaptainHowdy · 29th June 2017, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

And it is only historical revisionists who won't read what the founders of the confederacy said who love these monuments.

Sure, the Union states, especially Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri. West Virginia, sent their fathers, sons, brothers, and Uncles down into Dixie to save the N-words. Right.

Elagabalus · 29th June 2017, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Sure, the Union states, especially Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri. West Virginia, sent their fathers, sons, brothers, and Uncles down into Dixie to save the N-words. Right.

Incredible, but true!

bruto · 29th June 2017, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed.

The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed.

It failed at this aim.

Indeed, I seem to recall reading that the Civil War was, at least technically, begun by the South. It was after all they who seceded, they who took union forts, and they who fired the first shot. And what they were preventing was the prospect that the growing number of free territories would leave the advocates of slavery outnumbered. Apologists can dress it up with states' rights rhetoric and noble pronouncements about God, and no doubt many who fought were valiant, but insofar as the war would not have been fought if slavery did not exist, it's pretty far fetched to say it was not a war about slavery, started by those who feared they could not keep it.

332nd · 30th June 2017, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by JoeBentley

I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right.

Im partial to "The ultimate participation trophies."

Craig4 · 30th June 2017, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

Confederate Memorial
https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial

It would have been more accurate if the angel had been whipping a male slave while raping a female slave.

Craig4 · 30th June 2017, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by bigred

Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

There are only two things a Confederate memorial can memorialize, racism and treason. I suppose you could rationalize that it's a memorial to bravery but that would be bravery in support of racism and treason.

bignickel · 30th June 2017, 05:08 AM

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Upchurch · 30th June 2017, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html

I live walking distance from the former monument. We often drive through the park on our daily commute and, depending on where we are going, often drive right past it. It's on a small loop of road named "Confederate Dr." across from a cannon. IIRC, it was constructed decades after the war in the early 20th century as part of an effort by the Daughters of the Confederacy to rewrite history so that the Confederacy wasn't fighting to keep slaves.

Over the last month or two, there have been protests and counter-protests. My wife and I have been following a Facebook pro-removal group who organized the one half of those protests. There were several times, they advised people not bring kids and we would try to avoid the area during those times. We have driven by and seen people with their confederate flags hanging out around it. "Protecting it", I imagine.

I've took a certain amount of joy in watching it disappear piece-by-piece.

badnewsBH · 30th June 2017, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

You need to remember the true beauty of the supremacy of the white race. Most of these monuments got put up to fight against integration after all. That is something that still makes the south proud.

From what I could see in the photo, it did look like a very nice memorial. Whether the subject matter was deserving of memorializing is a whole other matter, of course.

CaptainHowdy · 30th June 2017, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by badnewsBH

From what I could see in the photo, it did look like a very nice memorial. Whether the subject matter was deserving of memorializing is a whole other matter, of course.

Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so.

Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!!

Border Reiver · 30th June 2017, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so.

Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!!

Tell you what, you and those who feel the South's ideals of owning other humans as property win the next civil war and you can do just that after putting your precious Confederate monuments to losers back up.

Spindrift · 30th June 2017, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so.

Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!!

I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose.

Ian Osborne · 30th June 2017, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose.

If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire? Destroy all memorials to the American Revolution, and its (slave-owning) founding fathers.

wareyin · 30th June 2017, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so.

Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!!

Was Jefferson Davis (or any other Confederate honored with a monument) known for anything other than fighting for the right to own slaves? Is the monument to them specifically honoring their struggle to own human beings?

Conversely, did Lincoln (or Washington, or any other founding father) do other deeds worthy of being honored by a monument? Are their monuments specifically a testament to their ownership of slaves, or might they just be honoring other accomplishments?

Spindrift · 30th June 2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire? Destroy all memorials to the American Revolution, and its (slave-owning) founding fathers.

The thirteen colonies won. If you win, it's not treason. If you don't win, it is.

William Parcher · 30th June 2017, 10:25 AM

Time capsule discovered inside Confederate Memorial

Originally Posted by ABC News

The Missouri Civil War Museum says crews who dismantled and removed a Confederate monument in a sprawling St. Louis park found a time capsule inside the 103-year-old granite landmark.

Museum director Mark Trout tells KTVI that workers jackhammering around the last pieces of the 38-foot-tall (12-meter-tall) monument popped loose the waterlogged, sealed capsule.

Trout says the find this week was "like Indiana Jones." He says the capsule will be opened privately, with the contents being revealed at a fundraiser...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/t...louis-48371809

Emily's Cat · 30th June 2017, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

There are only two things a Confederate memorial can memorialize, racism and treason. I suppose you could rationalize that it's a memorial to bravery but that would be bravery in support of racism and treason.

Originally Posted by bignickel

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable?

There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country. If the memorials were actually depicting something offensive, or were expressing a racist sentiment, I would understand. But right now, you're pretty much saying that anything and everything that could in any way be associated with the losing side in the civil war should be destroyed because it's somehow innately offensive. And I find that absurd.

Emily's Cat · 30th June 2017, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose.

So we'll be destroying all depictions of George Washington, then?

Or does it only apply if it depicts the losing side... in which case maybe we need to destroy any depictions of King George II?

Emily's Cat · 30th June 2017, 12:27 PM

Whether you agree with the ideals of the soldiers involved in that war or not, this is the purposeful destruction of history. I don't see this as any better than the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Our descendants should be able to view our history as it was, not with some saccharine shine of political correctness being rewritten to appease some multi-generational guilt.

bignickel · 30th June 2017, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable?

There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country. If the memorials were actually depicting something offensive, or were expressing a racist sentiment, I would understand. But right now, you're pretty much saying that anything and everything that could in any way be associated with the losing side in the civil war should be destroyed because it's somehow innately offensive. And I find that absurd.

I didn't say there was anything inherently racist in the statue. I could argue of course that all these Confederate flags and statues post war were messages sent to keep 'you know who' in their respective places. I may do that in the future; others have made better arguments about it in other threads.

But I will say that I don't care for statues celebrating traitors in my own country, or celebrating the former enemies of america who attacked us, whether that be the Confederacy, the Kaiser, the Emperor, or the Fuehrer.
Any such statues can be put in museums, and should I think, to show people of a time when certain groups were powerful enough to get statues and roads, dedicated to our former enemies, put on public lands.

I am glad such times are ending, but the future citizens of our nation should be kept aware.

Emily's Cat · 30th June 2017, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by bignickel

I didn't say there was anything inherently racist in the statue. I could argue of course that all these Confederate flags and statues post war were messages sent to keep 'you know who' in their respective places. I may do that in the future; others have made better arguments about it in other threads.

But I will say that I don't care of statues celebrating traitors in my own country, or celebrating the former enemies of america who attacked us, whether that be the Confederacy, the Kaiser, the Emperor, or the Fuehrer.

Do you feel that your dislike of it is sufficient to override anybody else's view who may value that insight to history?

Spindrift · 30th June 2017, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

So we'll be destroying all depictions of George Washington, then?

Or does it only apply if it depicts the losing side... in which case maybe we need to destroy any depictions of King George II?

Are there a lot of statues of King George II that were put up after the American Revolution saying what a great guy he was? Or George III for that matter.

It's not a matter of depicting the losers. It's a matter of attempting to re-write history and glorify those who committed treason.

28th June 2017, 11:00 AM	#1
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 39,648	One less confederate monument to vandalize... The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

28th June 2017, 11:12 AM	#2
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,652	Originally Posted by Mike! The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html “Because what had happened with the vandalism to it, and the city wanted it removed, this way it will be preserved . . . It is a beautiful monument.” says Patsy Limpus, president of the United Daughters of the Confederacy Missouri Division and the St. Louis Confederate Monument Association. Because nothing says beauty like civil war, treason, and the ownership of human beings.
	__________________ He must be removed. George Will on President Donald J. Trump. June 1, 2020

28th June 2017, 11:35 AM	#3
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,145	Originally Posted by Resume “Because what had happened with the vandalism to it, and the city wanted it removed, this way it will be preserved . . . It is a beautiful monument.” says Patsy Limpus, president of the United Daughters of the Confederacy Missouri Division and the St. Louis Confederate Monument Association. Because nothing says beauty like civil war, treason, and the ownership of human beings. You need to remember the true beauty of the supremacy of the white race. Most of these monuments got put up to fight against integration after all. That is something that still makes the south proud.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

28th June 2017, 01:07 PM	#4
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,982	What did the monument depict? I can't tell from the images.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,982	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

28th June 2017, 01:24 PM	#5
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,652	Confederate Memorial https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial Quote: The Confederate Memorial, dedicated in 1914, features a 32-foot-high granite shaft with a low relief figure of “The Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy.” Below is a bronze group, sculpted by George Julian Zolnay, depicting the response of the South to this spirit as a family sends a youth off to war.
	__________________ He must be removed. George Will on President Donald J. Trump. June 1, 2020

28th June 2017, 06:17 PM	#6
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 15,281	Originally Posted by Resume Confederate Memorial https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial Also: Quote: Beneath that is a quotation by Robert E. Lee: “We had sacred principles to maintain and rights to defend for which we were duty bound to do our best, even if we perished in the endeavor.” Even as an intentionally sanitized piece it doesn't quite pass the smell test.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th June 2017, 06:29 PM	#7
bigred Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 18,827	Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread.

28th June 2017, 07:01 PM	#8
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 15,281	Originally Posted by bigred Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread. Full of self-awareness too.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

28th June 2017, 07:06 PM	#9
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,652	Originally Posted by bigred Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread. Started right about post 7.
	__________________ He must be removed. George Will on President Donald J. Trump. June 1, 2020

28th June 2017, 07:25 PM	#10
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,864	I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

28th June 2017, 07:43 PM	#11
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 85,811	I was sure this thread was going to be about this vandalized monument: Arkansas Vandal Destroys 10 Commandments Monument One Day After Installation My eyes glazed over "confederate" in the thread title.

29th June 2017, 08:42 AM	#12
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,645	Originally Posted by bigred Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread. Don't be too upset. It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments.

29th June 2017, 08:49 AM	#13
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,145	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Don't be too upset. It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments. And it is only historical revisionists who won't read what the founders of the confederacy said who love these monuments.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th June 2017, 09:36 AM	#14
Spindrift Time Person of the Year, 2006 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 19,246	Originally Posted by JoeBentley I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right. Give them a break, it's not like they support treaso... oh nevermind.
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29th June 2017, 10:19 AM	#15
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,343	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy It's only the idiots who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves who come up with these comments. Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed. The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed. It failed at this aim.
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29th June 2017, 04:26 PM	#16
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,900	Wait, 'the Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy'? Not the Spirit of the Confederacy, but an Angel associated with it? Two supernatural beings, both Confederate? This is a confusing addition to the pantheon. They should replace it with a monument representing the Ghost of the Angel of the Spirit of the Confederacy. Or the Phantom of the Consciousness of the Intellect of the Ghost of the Angel of the Demon of the Manager of the Spirit of the Confederacy.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

29th June 2017, 04:57 PM	#17
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,758	Originally Posted by Checkmite Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed. The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed. It failed at this aim.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

29th June 2017, 07:36 PM	#18
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,288	The Phantom of the Consciousness of the Intellect of the Ghost of the Angel of the Demon of the Manager of the Spirit of the Confederacy...just...passed...byyyyyyyy! [jazz hands]
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

29th June 2017, 10:02 PM	#19
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,645	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle And it is only historical revisionists who won't read what the founders of the confederacy said who love these monuments. Sure, the Union states, especially Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri. West Virginia, sent their fathers, sons, brothers, and Uncles down into Dixie to save the N-words. Right.

29th June 2017, 10:06 PM	#20
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,896	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Sure, the Union states, especially Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri. West Virginia, sent their fathers, sons, brothers, and Uncles down into Dixie to save the N-words. Right. Incredible, but true!
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,896

29th June 2017, 10:40 PM	#21
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 27,252	Originally Posted by Checkmite Of course people who think the Civil War was fought to free the slaves are misinformed. The Civil War was fought to prevent slaves from being freed. It failed at this aim. Indeed, I seem to recall reading that the Civil War was, at least technically, begun by the South. It was after all they who seceded, they who took union forts, and they who fired the first shot. And what they were preventing was the prospect that the growing number of free territories would leave the advocates of slavery outnumbered. Apologists can dress it up with states' rights rhetoric and noble pronouncements about God, and no doubt many who fought were valiant, but insofar as the war would not have been fought if slavery did not exist, it's pretty far fetched to say it was not a war about slavery, started by those who feared they could not keep it.
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

30th June 2017, 12:08 AM	#22
332nd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 11,278	Originally Posted by JoeBentley I'll say the same thing I always say. Don't worry Confederate Flag supporters just because you lost this battle didn't mean you'll lose the wa... oh right. Im partial to "The ultimate participation trophies."
	__________________ The poster formerly known as Redtail

30th June 2017, 04:57 AM	#23
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State. Posts: 22,322	Originally Posted by Resume Confederate Memorial https://forestparkmap.org/confederate-memorial It would have been more accurate if the angel had been whipping a male slave while raping a female slave.

30th June 2017, 05:01 AM	#24
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State. Posts: 22,322	Originally Posted by bigred Forget the knife, it'd take a chainsaw to cut through the self-righteous stupidity in this thread. There are only two things a Confederate memorial can memorialize, racism and treason. I suppose you could rationalize that it's a memorial to bravery but that would be bravery in support of racism and treason.

30th June 2017, 05:08 AM	#25
bignickel Mad Mod Poet God Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 3,204	Good riddance to bad rubbish.
	__________________ "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

30th June 2017, 06:42 AM	#26
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,351	Originally Posted by Mike! The horribly offencive confederate monument in St. Louis' Forest Park (That most people, up until recently, didn't even know was there.) will be removed from Forest Park by Friday. The city decided to let the rightful owners move and store it rather than fight out the city's right to remove and store it in court. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c517b4f9f.html I live walking distance from the former monument. We often drive through the park on our daily commute and, depending on where we are going, often drive right past it. It's on a small loop of road named "Confederate Dr." across from a cannon. IIRC, it was constructed decades after the war in the early 20th century as part of an effort by the Daughters of the Confederacy to rewrite history so that the Confederacy wasn't fighting to keep slaves. Over the last month or two, there have been protests and counter-protests. My wife and I have been following a Facebook pro-removal group who organized the one half of those protests. There were several times, they advised people not bring kids and we would try to avoid the area during those times. We have driven by and seen people with their confederate flags hanging out around it. "Protecting it", I imagine. I've took a certain amount of joy in watching it disappear piece-by-piece.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

30th June 2017, 06:45 AM	#27
badnewsBH Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 271	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle You need to remember the true beauty of the supremacy of the white race. Most of these monuments got put up to fight against integration after all. That is something that still makes the south proud. From what I could see in the photo, it did look like a very nice memorial. Whether the subject matter was deserving of memorializing is a whole other matter, of course.

30th June 2017, 09:20 AM	#28
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,645	Originally Posted by badnewsBH From what I could see in the photo, it did look like a very nice memorial. Whether the subject matter was deserving of memorializing is a whole other matter, of course. Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so. Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!!

30th June 2017, 09:28 AM	#29
Border Reiver Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,684	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so. Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!! Tell you what, you and those who feel the South's ideals of owning other humans as property win the next civil war and you can do just that after putting your precious Confederate monuments to losers back up.
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30th June 2017, 09:37 AM	#30
Spindrift Time Person of the Year, 2006 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 19,246	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so. Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!! I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon

30th June 2017, 09:45 AM	#31
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,223	Originally Posted by Spindrift I think we draw the line at treason. Don't commit treason and you can have a monument. Or if you're going to commit treason, win don't lose. If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire? Destroy all memorials to the American Revolution, and its (slave-owning) founding fathers.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

30th June 2017, 10:17 AM	#32
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,155	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Yeah, well, the Jefferson Memorial and the Washington Monument are very nice buildings too but they pay tribute to slave rapists and the ownership of our fellow human beings. The Lincoln Memorial honors a man who believed that Africans were inferior to Caucasians and who failed to abolish slavery when he was in a position to do so. Dynamite those dishonorable structures and build affordable housing for the descendants of the oppressed, you racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, Trump supporting Neanderthal you!! Was Jefferson Davis (or any other Confederate honored with a monument) known for anything other than fighting for the right to own slaves? Is the monument to them specifically honoring their struggle to own human beings? Conversely, did Lincoln (or Washington, or any other founding father) do other deeds worthy of being honored by a monument? Are their monuments specifically a testament to their ownership of slaves, or might they just be honoring other accomplishments?

30th June 2017, 10:21 AM	#33
Spindrift Time Person of the Year, 2006 Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 19,246	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne If it was treasonous for the ten states to secede from the union, why was it acceptable for the thirteen colonies to secede from the empire? Destroy all memorials to the American Revolution, and its (slave-owning) founding fathers. The thirteen colonies won. If you win, it's not treason. If you don't win, it is.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon

30th June 2017, 10:25 AM	#34
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,728	Time capsule discovered inside Confederate Memorial Originally Posted by ABC News The Missouri Civil War Museum says crews who dismantled and removed a Confederate monument in a sprawling St. Louis park found a time capsule inside the 103-year-old granite landmark. Museum director Mark Trout tells KTVI that workers jackhammering around the last pieces of the 38-foot-tall (12-meter-tall) monument popped loose the waterlogged, sealed capsule. Trout says the find this week was "like Indiana Jones." He says the capsule will be opened privately, with the contents being revealed at a fundraiser... http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/t...louis-48371809
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30th June 2017, 12:23 PM	#35
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 13,741	Originally Posted by Craig4 There are only two things a Confederate memorial can memorialize, racism and treason. I suppose you could rationalize that it's a memorial to bravery but that would be bravery in support of racism and treason. Originally Posted by bignickel Good riddance to bad rubbish. Should we destroy any monuments to Napoleon? Or Alexander the Great? Or to any other historical event that is no longer considered acceptable? There's nothing inherently racist about that statue. The civil war happened. It was a big divide in the country. If the memorials were actually depicting something offensive, or were expressing a racist sentiment, I would understand. But right now, you're pretty much saying that anything and everything that could in any way be associated with the losing side in the civil war should be destroyed because it's somehow innately offensive. And I find that absurd.
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