[Continuation] Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan - Page 11

p0lka · 29th June 2019, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

You seem to be trying to pick out the thread of gender roles in society, but the problem is that you can't really do this without unraveling the whole tapestry.

My view is that gender roles in society can cause a conflict with the self perception of gender.
Societal pressure to conform to the boy/girl gender roles, can cause problems with the people who just dont feel as if they are a part of that.
Gender, hard to define or something.

The moment you start to change your body to conform though, I dont think thats a gender issue anymore.

qayak · 29th June 2019, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society.

So a trans-woman is just a cis-male who wants to stay home with the kids? Whodathunk!

The Atheist · 29th June 2019, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Nope.

Everything else is just figuring out what that means and whether it's actually true.

I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.

That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus.

d4m10n · 30th June 2019, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out.

The Atheist · 30th June 2019, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out.

I didn't claim to be surprised what happened happened, but the fact is the thread is simply about trans women not being women. I'm not even bothered about the drift into irrelevancy - it displays perfectly why there will never be an answer to the "problem" of where trans people sit* in society. We have two sides implacably opposed to the other's position. Instead of trying to reach a happy compromise, both sides have become more and more entrenched.

It's a beautiful mirror for politics.

And for the record, yes, I think Jesus would be shocked at what's done and said in his name. That's why he let himself be nailed to a tree, according to the script I read.

He just wasn't a very good psychic and didn't see what Saul of Tarsus was going to do.

*Yes, I did use it deliberately.

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 12:44 PM

And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.

https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824

Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs.

d4m10n · 1st July 2019, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.

Neither does my mother-in-law.

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Neither does my mother-in-law.

What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless.

Exactly unlike a trans woman's opinion.

d4m10n · 1st July 2019, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless.

I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans?

BrooklynBaby · 1st July 2019, 02:53 PM

The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.

p0lka · 1st July 2019, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate.

https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824

Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs.

Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex.

I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex.

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans?

Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No.

If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.

Have you been asleep for a few years, mate? There are numerous examples in the thread and elsewhere of feminists not being at all silent on the subject, then being labelled TERFS for not playing along with the trans agenda.

Originally Posted by p0lka

Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex.

I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex.

And I feel the attempt to make the two different is absurd. The myth is that biology is interchangeable.

A Dutch bloke recently went to court to change his age from 60 to 40, because he identifies as a 40-year-old.

The court rightly threw it out.

It's an identical situation. Or, you could go ask Rachel Dolezal how things worked out for her.

The more this whole sorry saga goes on, the more it looks like a squeaky wheel syndrome that could, and should, be safely ignored.

I think I'm going to take my emotional support flamethrower and insist that I be referred to as a teapot from now on. I'm full of tea, virtually never put any liquid not tea into me, and I can make a jolly fine teapot shape with my arms. I'm pretty sure I have a tea strainer that won't look too much like a yarmulke if I wear it on my head - I don't identify as Jewish, even with more of it that Liz Warren has Native American.

I will be Mr Teapot - my gender/sex/cisness is not an issue.

d4m10n · 1st July 2019, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.

If what you're trying to say is that there were no transwomen in the cross-sectional survey of 32,748 women discussed in the article you linked, well, yeah. Obviously. If you're trying to say that transwomen are different from ciswomen in the sense that one group is at risk of menstrual cycles and pregnancy, again, you're simply stating the obvious. When transwomen activists demand access to women's spaces so they can properly dispose of feminine hygiene products, we will return to this point.

theprestige · 1st July 2019, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.

Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that?

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that?

Damn right - and get the **** off my lawn while you're at it.

I'm actually more amused than annoyed.

But do try to explain to me how any trans woman wanting to be classed as an actual woman is in any way different to Rachel Dolezal and her blackness.

I've said an enormous number of times that if anyone wants to progress the issue instead of arguing the toss over bloody toilets, or some mythical idea of how biology and four billion years of evolution works, take a leaf out of the Pasifika handbook and just have a third gender.

Not a perfect answer for everyone? Write a sternly-worded letter to your local newspaper. Or even better, Tweet endlessly about it.

Robin · 1st July 2019, 06:49 PM

Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.

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d4m10n · 1st July 2019, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.

It's worse than that.

Speaking only for myself, I intend to convey a different meaning (using the exact same word) when I say "women's reproductive health," "women's clothes," and "women's sports."

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person.

Only three choices? Bit limiting.

BrooklynBaby · 1st July 2019, 08:36 PM

I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women

The Atheist · 1st July 2019, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women

Perfect.

You can close the thread now - nobody's going to improve on that.

Roboramma · 2nd July 2019, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women.

That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women.

That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus.

There's a thread in science about how rockets don't work in the vacuum of space. But it's also about conservation of momentum, fluid dynamics, rocket science in general, and some other issues.

You started a conversation. That doesn't mean you define it.

JihadJane · 2nd July 2019, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.

Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this.

Robin · 2nd July 2019, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

I think I've got it:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Men are Women

Hmmm... the desperate resort to the Orwell reference. That is just about the level for this thread.

Belz... · 2nd July 2019, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No.

If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid.

Rubbish. One of the unique characteristics of humans is that we can draw experience from others. Obviously that means we can then discuss it.

Francesca R · 2nd July 2019, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by JihadJane

Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this.

I imagine that the post may have been trying to say that: "feminists" have been completely ineffective and durr hurr serves the bleating wretches right yar boo what they need is a darn good **** anyway right? Dunno though.

d4m10n · 2nd July 2019, 07:00 AM

WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation:

https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945

caveman1917 · 2nd July 2019, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation:

https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945

All hail the progressive bourgeoisie!

d4m10n · 2nd July 2019, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

All hail the progressive bourgeoisie!

Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular?

Ron_Tomkins · 2nd July 2019, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Hope springs eternal.

If we explain it just one more time, the other side will get it, surely.

Exactly.

caveman1917 · 2nd July 2019, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular?

Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following:

Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!"
Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!"

Robin · 2nd July 2019, 08:55 AM

Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

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Robin · 2nd July 2019, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

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Or, alternately, is it just possible to suggest that in common language usage the word 'man' might be used in more than one way (even within the same sentence) without someone invoking 1984?

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Lithrael · 2nd July 2019, 10:48 AM

Since the thread is stupid anyway, I’ll use the space to pontificate a little.

Though I hella support 90% of the transgender stuff I see, I have to admit I have a hard time really imagining it cause I don’t identify very strongly with my gender. If I woke up tomorrow and the world started misgendering me I’d pretty much just be a little baffled. Would people make fun of me for looking feminine? That would be pretty ironic! But I can’t imagine I’d really try to put my foot down on the issue of my real gender. It’d be so much easier to play along. I could get a shorter haircut. I already have a unisex name, which is handy. I’d probably feel a little more self conscious about being short and quick to cry. I’d need the exact same amount of help from acquaintances in picking out clothes other people would find reasonable on me. And knowing everyone sees me as a dude would probably be a confidence boost. I’d love knowing straight guys who hang out with me definitely aren’t holding out any romantic hopes.

In private I’d probably tell people I was close to that I was really a woman. I don’t think it’d bother me if they scoffed or thought I was being weird or lying to them. It’d just be what’s true anyway. I’m incapable of doubting it so I don’t think I’d be knocked off base or anything. It’d just be weird. Relationships would be a little harder but I like unusual people anyway so I’m sure I could work with it.

But what I CAN imagine is what a pain in the ass all that would be if I really cared, if I loved makeup and dresses, or if I just really loved being female as part of my identity. For me, there’s... really nothing to give up. But if there was? I can’t feel it myself but I can imagine it. It’s got to be ridiculous. Like the world just doesn’t believe you about something so ridiculously true. Like what the **** do you care that much what my gender is that you’re gonna contradict me on it? THAT part I can sympathise with.

Robin · 2nd July 2019, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men."

So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder.

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Also wonder where that spare "La" came from in Paglia's name...

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qayak · 2nd July 2019, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by caveman1917

Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following:

Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!"
Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!"

Ultra-Conservative: "Women are **** when compared to men!"

SJW: "The best woman is a washed up, white, former male, and decathlete, who once appeared on a reality show!"

Me: "Not really seeing the difference at this point."

JihadJane · 3rd July 2019, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

Since the thread is stupid anyway, I’ll use the space to pontificate a little.

Though I hella support 90% of the transgender stuff I see, I have to admit I have a hard time really imagining it cause I don’t identify very strongly with my gender. If I woke up tomorrow and the world started misgendering me I’d pretty much just be a little baffled. Would people make fun of me for looking feminine? That would be pretty ironic! But I can’t imagine I’d really try to put my foot down on the issue of my real gender. It’d be so much easier to play along. I could get a shorter haircut. I already have a unisex name, which is handy. I’d probably feel a little more self conscious about being short and quick to cry. I’d need the exact same amount of help from acquaintances in picking out clothes other people would find reasonable on me. And knowing everyone sees me as a dude would probably be a confidence boost. I’d love knowing straight guys who hang out with me definitely aren’t holding out any romantic hopes.

In private I’d probably tell people I was close to that I was really a woman. I don’t think it’d bother me if they scoffed or thought I was being weird or lying to them. It’d just be what’s true anyway. I’m incapable of doubting it so I don’t think I’d be knocked off base or anything. It’d just be weird. Relationships would be a little harder but I like unusual people anyway so I’m sure I could work with it.

But what I CAN imagine is what a pain in the ass all that would be if I really cared, if I loved makeup and dresses, or if I just really loved being female as part of my identity. For me, there’s... really nothing to give up. But if there was? I can’t feel it myself but I can imagine it. It’s got to be ridiculous. Like the world just doesn’t believe you about something so ridiculously true. Like what the **** do you care that much what my gender is that you’re gonna contradict me on it? THAT part I can sympathise with.

Please define the following words:

Gender
Female
Transgender

p0lka · 3rd July 2019, 05:39 PM

I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

BrooklynBaby · 3rd July 2019, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.

JihadJane · 3rd July 2019, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.

Such as transmen, perhaps!

Meadmaker · 3rd July 2019, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.

You are not up on your modern lexicon.

A male bodied T would be someone with a male body, but a female gender identity, i.e. a transwoman. According to the modern notions, then that person is really and truly a woman, despite having a penis. So, if that person is attracted to men, then that makes the male-bodied T a heterosexual woman, and therefore certainly not G, nor even L. If "she" is also attracted to women, she could be a B, but that would be true regardless of T status.

There will be a quiz on this, possibly in the HR office, or at a hate speech trial if you live in Britain.

29th June 2019, 08:56 PM	#402
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,745	Originally Posted by theprestige This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society. So a trans-woman is just a cis-male who wants to stay home with the kids? Whodathunk!
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

29th June 2019, 10:16 PM	#403
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by theprestige Nope. Everything else is just figuring out what that means and whether it's actually true. I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women. That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women. That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

30th June 2019, 06:04 AM	#404
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by The Atheist I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women. Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

30th June 2019, 01:28 PM	#405
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by d4m10n Much like how Jesus would be totally unsurprised at how Christianity turned out. I didn't claim to be surprised what happened happened, but the fact is the thread is simply about trans women not being women. I'm not even bothered about the drift into irrelevancy - it displays perfectly why there will never be an answer to the "problem" of where trans people sit* in society. We have two sides implacably opposed to the other's position. Instead of trying to reach a happy compromise, both sides have become more and more entrenched. It's a beautiful mirror for politics. And for the record, yes, I think Jesus would be shocked at what's done and said in his name. That's why he let himself be nailed to a tree, according to the script I read. He just wasn't a very good psychic and didn't see what Saul of Tarsus was going to do. *Yes, I did use it deliberately.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

1st July 2019, 12:44 PM	#406
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate. https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824 Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

29th June 2019, 04:10 PM	#401
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,170	Originally Posted by theprestige This thread is about the intersection of physical attributes, self-perception of gender, and gender roles in society. You seem to be trying to pick out the thread of gender roles in society, but the problem is that you can't really do this without unraveling the whole tapestry. My view is that gender roles in society can cause a conflict with the self perception of gender. Societal pressure to conform to the boy/girl gender roles, can cause problems with the people who just dont feel as if they are a part of that. Gender, hard to define or something. The moment you start to change your body to conform though, I dont think thats a gender issue anymore.

1st July 2019, 01:00 PM	#407
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by The Atheist And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate. Neither does my mother-in-law.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

1st July 2019, 01:20 PM	#408
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by d4m10n Neither does my mother-in-law. What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless. Exactly unlike a trans woman's opinion.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

1st July 2019, 01:44 PM	#409
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by The Atheist What an idiotic reply - she obviously used to. The fact that she's post-menopausal doesn't mean her input is either invalid or useless. I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

1st July 2019, 02:53 PM	#410
BrooklynBaby Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 1,106	The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious.

1st July 2019, 03:25 PM	#411
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,170	Originally Posted by The Atheist And another very good reason why trans women can't be women - they do not menstruate. https://theconversation.com/period-p...bout-it-118824 Trans women will never need to try to figure out which product to use, will never pay the sales tax on them, will never enrich the corporations behind menstrual products, and will never be able to claim they need time to deal with period pain or have to rush to the shops to buy new panties when an accidental overflow occurs. Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex. I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex.

1st July 2019, 05:01 PM	#412
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by d4m10n I have no idea why you'd assume someone's input is invalid or useless just b/c they've never personally suffered from the subject under discussion. Do we tell pacifists to shut up unless they happen to be combat veterans? Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No. If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid. Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious. Have you been asleep for a few years, mate? There are numerous examples in the thread and elsewhere of feminists not being at all silent on the subject, then being labelled TERFS for not playing along with the trans agenda. Originally Posted by p0lka Transwomen aren't women, Transmen arent men, thats arguing about sex. I feel gender is the complicated topic, not sex. And I feel the attempt to make the two different is absurd. The myth is that biology is interchangeable. A Dutch bloke recently went to court to change his age from 60 to 40, because he identifies as a 40-year-old. The court rightly threw it out. It's an identical situation. Or, you could go ask Rachel Dolezal how things worked out for her. The more this whole sorry saga goes on, the more it looks like a squeaky wheel syndrome that could, and should, be safely ignored. I think I'm going to take my emotional support flamethrower and insist that I be referred to as a teapot from now on. I'm full of tea, virtually never put any liquid not tea into me, and I can make a jolly fine teapot shape with my arms. I'm pretty sure I have a tea strainer that won't look too much like a yarmulke if I wear it on my head - I don't identify as Jewish, even with more of it that Liz Warren has Native American. I will be Mr Teapot - my gender/sex/cisness is not an issue.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

1st July 2019, 05:26 PM	#413
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by The Atheist If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid. If what you're trying to say is that there were no transwomen in the cross-sectional survey of 32,748 women discussed in the article you linked, well, yeah. Obviously. If you're trying to say that transwomen are different from ciswomen in the sense that one group is at risk of menstrual cycles and pregnancy, again, you're simply stating the obvious. When transwomen activists demand access to women's spaces so they can properly dispose of feminine hygiene products, we will return to this point.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 1st July 2019 at 05:31 PM.

1st July 2019, 05:41 PM	#414
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,591	Originally Posted by The Atheist I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women. That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women. Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that?

1st July 2019, 05:56 PM	#415
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by theprestige Seriously? You started a thread just to say that transwomen don't have vaginas? And now you're back to yell at us for not leaving it at that? Damn right - and get the **** off my lawn while you're at it. I'm actually more amused than annoyed. But do try to explain to me how any trans woman wanting to be classed as an actual woman is in any way different to Rachel Dolezal and her blackness. I've said an enormous number of times that if anyone wants to progress the issue instead of arguing the toss over bloody toilets, or some mythical idea of how biology and four billion years of evolution works, take a leaf out of the Pasifika handbook and just have a third gender. Not a perfect answer for everyone? Write a sternly-worded letter to your local newspaper. Or even better, Tweet endlessly about it.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

1st July 2019, 06:49 PM	#416
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

1st July 2019, 07:01 PM	#417
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by Robin Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person. It's worse than that. Speaking only for myself, I intend to convey a different meaning (using the exact same word) when I say "women's reproductive health," "women's clothes," and "women's sports."
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

1st July 2019, 08:33 PM	#418
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by Robin Basically this thread is "When I use the word 'woman' I mean by it X Y and Z" only with a different X.Y and Z for each person. Only three choices? Bit limiting.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

1st July 2019, 08:36 PM	#419
BrooklynBaby Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 1,106	I think I've got it: War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength Men are Women

1st July 2019, 08:38 PM	#420
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,896	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby I think I've got it: War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength Men are Women Perfect. You can close the thread now - nobody's going to improve on that.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

2nd July 2019, 12:33 AM	#421
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,146	Originally Posted by The Atheist I know what the thread's about because I started it, and the only purpose of the thread was to state that trans women are not women. That's unchallengeable - they don't have a uterus or ovaries and they are not, and will never be, women. That's it. The thread's drifted into all sorts of bollocks, which is fairly demonstrable by the fact that the same arguments have been going on for 50-something pages with no sign of consensus. There's a thread in science about how rockets don't work in the vacuum of space. But it's also about conservation of momentum, fluid dynamics, rocket science in general, and some other issues. You started a conversation. That doesn't mean you define it.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

2nd July 2019, 01:25 AM	#422
JihadJane not a camel Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 76,681	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby The silence of the "feminists" while men are winning women's sporting events is hilarious. Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this.
JihadJane not a camel Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 76,681	__________________ empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes

2nd July 2019, 02:11 AM	#423
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby I think I've got it: War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength Men are Women Hmmm... the desperate resort to the Orwell reference. That is just about the level for this thread.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

2nd July 2019, 03:14 AM	#424
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by The Atheist Terrible analogy. Can a non-combatant speak to the personal effect of war injuries? No. If you haven't been under fire, you have no idea what it's like, so therefore your input would be completely invalid. Rubbish. One of the unique characteristics of humans is that we can draw experience from others. Obviously that means we can then discuss it.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

2nd July 2019, 04:00 AM	#425
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 18,600	Originally Posted by JihadJane Silence? Maybe you need to get some hearing aids! There is a huge, transnational feminist campaign against this. I imagine that the post may have been trying to say that: "feminists" have been completely ineffective and durr hurr serves the bleating wretches right yar boo what they need is a darn good *** anyway right*? Dunno though.

2nd July 2019, 07:00 AM	#426
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation: https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

2nd July 2019, 08:00 AM	#427
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,675	Originally Posted by d4m10n WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation: https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945 All hail the progressive bourgeoisie!
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,675	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

2nd July 2019, 08:17 AM	#428
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,075	Originally Posted by caveman1917 All hail the progressive bourgeoisie! Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

2nd July 2019, 08:21 AM	#429
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 43,991	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Hope springs eternal. If we explain it just one more time, the other side will get it, surely. Exactly.
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

2nd July 2019, 08:46 AM	#430
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,675	Originally Posted by d4m10n Are you trying to make an argument against anything in particular? Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following: Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!" Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!"
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,675	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

2nd July 2019, 08:55 AM	#431
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men." So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

2nd July 2019, 09:24 AM	#432
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by Robin Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men." So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk Or, alternately, is it just possible to suggest that in common language usage the word 'man' might be used in more than one way (even within the same sentence) without someone invoking 1984? Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

2nd July 2019, 10:48 AM	#433
Lithrael Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,993	Since the thread is stupid anyway, I’ll use the space to pontificate a little. Though I hella support 90% of the transgender stuff I see, I have to admit I have a hard time really imagining it cause I don’t identify very strongly with my gender. If I woke up tomorrow and the world started misgendering me I’d pretty much just be a little baffled. Would people make fun of me for looking feminine? That would be pretty ironic! But I can’t imagine I’d really try to put my foot down on the issue of my real gender. It’d be so much easier to play along. I could get a shorter haircut. I already have a unisex name, which is handy. I’d probably feel a little more self conscious about being short and quick to cry. I’d need the exact same amount of help from acquaintances in picking out clothes other people would find reasonable on me. And knowing everyone sees me as a dude would probably be a confidence boost. I’d love knowing straight guys who hang out with me definitely aren’t holding out any romantic hopes. In private I’d probably tell people I was close to that I was really a woman. I don’t think it’d bother me if they scoffed or thought I was being weird or lying to them. It’d just be what’s true anyway. I’m incapable of doubting it so I don’t think I’d be knocked off base or anything. It’d just be weird. Relationships would be a little harder but I like unusual people anyway so I’m sure I could work with it. But what I CAN imagine is what a pain in the ass all that would be if I really cared, if I loved makeup and dresses, or if I just really loved being female as part of my identity. For me, there’s... really nothing to give up. But if there was? I can’t feel it myself but I can imagine it. It’s got to be ridiculous. Like the world just doesn’t believe you about something so ridiculously true. Like what the **** do you care that much what my gender is that you’re gonna contradict me on it? THAT part I can sympathise with.

2nd July 2019, 02:25 PM	#434
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by Robin Camille La Paglia, darling of the intellectual dork web (as I believe they like to term themselves) said "In Texas, unlike the urban Northeast, men are men." So if men in the Urban Northeast are not men, what are they, I wonder. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk Also wonder where that spare "La" came from in Paglia's name... Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

2nd July 2019, 07:01 PM	#435
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,745	Originally Posted by caveman1917 Not so much making an argument as expressing a certain sentiment against a certain aspect of the liberal worldview. An argument for which can certainly be defended but which I don't particularly have the intention of doing so, especially since it would take us too far off track for this thread. Perhaps the sentiment can best be expressed by the following: Conservatives: "Ten white men should own half the planet!" Liberals: "No! Five of them should be women, and maybe one of them should be black!" Ultra-Conservative: "Women are **** when compared to men!" SJW: "The best woman is a washed up, white, former male, and decathlete, who once appeared on a reality show!" Me: "Not really seeing the difference at this point."
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."