[Continuation] Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan - Page 12

p0lka · 3rd July 2019, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions.

There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?
Eg:
"I'm female but I like females. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?"
or
"I'm male but I like males. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?".

There's a possible rabbit hole via the internet if you feel like that, it's reassurance all the way down.

The Atheist · 3rd July 2019, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

That's why it's now LGBTQIA+

I wish I were joking.

Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals.

qayak · 3rd July 2019, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals.

Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole.

Steve · 3rd July 2019, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole.

Some just matter more than others

Puppycow · 3rd July 2019, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation:

https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945

Summaries are nice.

Headline: How employers are preparing for a gender non-binary world

Quote:

Last week, Quartz reported that financial services giant TIAA had rolled out guidelines in late May suggesting client-facing employees share their pronouns in introductions. Netflix now has recruiters do the same, as well as ask candidates about theirs in initial phone calls, one of several practices to accommodate non-binary employees or applicants. A new program from MasterCard will allow cardholders to swap out birth names that conflict with gender identity with the name they actually use.

I see some really great opportunities for trolling here. I have never in my life been asked what my preferred pronouns are. I'm (now) a middle-aged balding man with a beard and an unmistakably male voice, so I wouldn't normally expect to be asked that.

Here's some options:

https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/

ETA: besides pronouns, what is the proper way to address a non-binary person? Sir and Ma'am are out, I assume, so what is it?

Francesca R · 3rd July 2019, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial?

There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody

Rolfe · 4th July 2019, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.

IsThisTheLife · 4th July 2019, 10:37 AM

I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.

8enotto · 4th July 2019, 10:51 AM

Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.

Lithrael · 4th July 2019, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT?

The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.'

The T bit is all about conforming,
'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl',
or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy',

or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role',

Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions?
LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want..
T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m.

Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.

Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.

It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.

TragicMonkey · 4th July 2019, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by 8enotto

Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have?

Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.

Depending on what state one lives in, one can be fired, evicted, or denied adoption for not being straight. So if you don't mind the risk of being unemployed, homeless, and losing your kids then sure, everything's great!

The Atheist · 4th July 2019, 11:30 AM

Toilet problem solved: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...festival-crowd

Darat · 4th July 2019, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.

Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.

Darat · 4th July 2019, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.

Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to.

It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.

Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!

p0lka · 4th July 2019, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Francesca R

There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole

#parody

Yeah, i suggested some As might be bs,

Then you came along suggesting that some Cs might be Ds which leads to some CS not wanting to be Ds and Fs are As and Bs are Es and then you mentioned misogyny.

Right, **** the alphabet.... where are you getting the misogyny from?

Meadmaker · 4th July 2019, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.

The first time I saw the "Q" I was told it stood for "questioning", as in people who were kind of gender neutral or really weren't sure about their gender or sexuality. I can't remember how long ago that was, but it was a while back. I think it was even LGBQ when I first saw it.

I've since seen it said that it refers to "queer" instead.

I suppose there isn't any "official" acronym.

Meadmaker · 4th July 2019, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!

So do I, but I would like to go back to when it had no inherent sexual connotations. Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.

The Atheist · 4th July 2019, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.

Tom Sawyer's still mighty gay, too.

You could check in the Mind Your Language thread as well.

People just have to learn to read contextually.

d4m10n · 4th July 2019, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.

Originally Posted by Darat

Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.

Seeing you two argue is confusing to those of us who go off avatars.

Anyhow, given that "GLBT" goes back to the early 90s (e.g. this book) it seems fairly counterfactual to claim the "T" was tacked on after gays & lesbians had already "achieved all their legislative goals."

p0lka · 4th July 2019, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Lithrael

Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time.

Yeah, i agree which is why I said some.

I'm interested in this other example you gave, the highlighted.
What's happening there? Why do they want to go on hormone therapy, quit having breasts and get called Frank?
Seems to me they are aiming for a gender role.

Some people I have met, have taken hormone treatment with the goal to average out themselves so they aren't one gender or the other, so I couldn't accuse them of trying to conform to a gender role, they're a mixture of both.

Anyway, I thought everyone had family members that were L,g,b or T.
I have cousins/uncles/cousins kids/aunties etc and I thought it was common until I checked with other people and apparently it's not, so what do I know

Robin · 4th July 2019, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

You are not up on your modern lexicon.

A male bodied T would be someone with a male body, but a female gender identity, i.e. a transwoman. According to the modern notions, then that person is really and truly a woman, despite having a penis. So, if that person is attracted to men, then that makes the male-bodied T a heterosexual woman, and therefore certainly not G, nor even L. If "she" is also attracted to women, she could be a B, but that would be true regardless of T status.

There will be a quiz on this, possibly in the HR office, or at a hate speech trial if you live in Britain.

Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.

qayak · 4th July 2019, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Toilet problem solved: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...festival-crowd

I love this:

Quote:

“We wanted to create the female version of a product which exists all over the world,” she [the creator] explained.

“I don’t think it’s that complicated to make a urinal for women. I just think it was something which was designed by men and they only thought about themselves.”

So it's men's fault that women couldn't figure out the urinal problem until 2019? Is she saying women really are that dumb?

I showed this new urinal to my wife. The issues are many. Aiming would be a problem for her so wet shoes and all that. Touching the sides of the urinal just doesn't work for her. The fact that anyone walking by has the opportunity to see her, and the woman using it can look down into the next urinal when standing, means she would never use it.

This isn't going to catch on. It doesn't address the problems of urination the way a urinal for men solves them. I guess it's back to the drawing board.

JihadJane · 5th July 2019, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.

Were these heterosexual men calling themselves lesbians calling actual lesbians who disagreed and/or didn't want to have sex with them transphobes 35 years ago?

Belz... · 5th July 2019, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.

Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them.

Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks.

Darat · 5th July 2019, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them.

Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks.

It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.

qayak · 5th July 2019, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.

By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?

Belz... · 7th July 2019, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.

That's odd because I heard the exact opposite.

Matthew Best · 7th July 2019, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That's odd because I heard the exact opposite.

You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.

Robin · 7th July 2019, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?

Sorry, when????

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

Robin · 7th July 2019, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by qayak

By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?

Let me be more specific, there was no time pre 1980's when the gay, lesbian or transexual community were able to live the life we chose.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

Darat · 7th July 2019, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.

Yeah, seems very unlikely to me. But perhaps my experience in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and even little old Bolton was atypical and the LGs in other areas used to threaten the Ts with violence.

p0lka · 7th July 2019, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.

Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body.

Robin · 7th July 2019, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body.

No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

theprestige · 7th July 2019, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

Evidence?

Also, who ******* cares about your device?

Robin · 7th July 2019, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Evidence?

Also, who ******* cares about your device?

Perhaps you could try a few seconds of concentrated thought on both those counts. Unfortunately I cannot do that for you.

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk

Robin · 7th July 2019, 04:45 PM

Switched it off as it seems to bother people.

d4m10n · 7th July 2019, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Switched it off as it seems to bother people.

Eh, don't sweat it.

Sent from my AGM-86C/D using Tapatalk

Robin · 8th July 2019, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Eh, don't sweat it.

Sent from my AGM-86C/D using Tapatalk

I know it well. A big competitor in the Samsung Galaxy Note 9 market space I understand.

Belz... · 8th July 2019, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.

Ok maybe not the literal opposite, but I heard they weren't treated well by them at all. Don't have a source for that, though.

Darat · 8th July 2019, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Ok maybe not the literal opposite, but I heard they weren't treated well by them at all. Don't have a source for that, though.

Depends what you mean. For example in the 80s in Manchester many of the Ts would go to the New Union (not the most trendy of the few gay pubs around the area) and they certainly didn't face violence and threats in such a pub. Yes there were some issues in that some of the Gs and Ls were not that friendly or supportive but in the end the commonality of persecution brought the activists together.

3rd July 2019, 06:46 PM	#441
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,169	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby Every T is G, as far as I can tell. But, there are probably exceptions. There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial? Eg: "I'm female but I like females. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?" or "I'm male but I like males. I'm not gay maybe i'm just in the wrong body?". There's a possible rabbit hole via the internet if you feel like that, it's reassurance all the way down.
	Last edited by p0lka; 3rd July 2019 at 06:59 PM.

3rd July 2019, 08:56 PM	#442
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,870	Originally Posted by p0lka I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT? That's why it's now LGBTQIA+ I wish I were joking. Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

3rd July 2019, 09:08 PM	#443
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,745	Originally Posted by The Atheist Maybe we could just throw an "H" on the end of it and include heterosexuals. Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

3rd July 2019, 10:10 PM	#444
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,011	Originally Posted by qayak Careful. Your heading down the "all lives matter" rabbit hole. Some just matter more than others
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

3rd July 2019, 10:40 PM	#445
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,584	Originally Posted by d4m10n WaPo article relevant to the broader conversation: https://twitter.com/tmamone/status/1146054398663122945 Summaries are nice. Headline: How employers are preparing for a gender non-binary world Quote: Last week, Quartz reported that financial services giant TIAA had rolled out guidelines in late May suggesting client-facing employees share their pronouns in introductions. Netflix now has recruiters do the same, as well as ask candidates about theirs in initial phone calls, one of several practices to accommodate non-binary employees or applicants. A new program from MasterCard will allow cardholders to swap out birth names that conflict with gender identity with the name they actually use. I see some really great opportunities for trolling here. I have never in my life been asked what my preferred pronouns are. I'm (now) a middle-aged balding man with a beard and an unmistakably male voice, so I wouldn't normally expect to be asked that. Here's some options: https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/ ETA: besides pronouns, what is the proper way to address a non-binary person? Sir and Ma'am are out, I assume, so what is it?
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare Last edited by Puppycow; 3rd July 2019 at 10:44 PM.

3rd July 2019, 11:27 PM	#446
Francesca R Girl Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London EC1 Posts: 18,600	Originally Posted by p0lka There's a possible debate about whether some Ts are just Gs in denial? There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole #parody
	Last edited by Francesca R; 3rd July 2019 at 11:29 PM.

4th July 2019, 08:00 AM	#447
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 46,328	Originally Posted by p0lka I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT? The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.' The T bit is all about conforming, 'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl', or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy', or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role', Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions? LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want.. T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m. The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

4th July 2019, 10:37 AM	#448
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made.
IsThisTheLife Muse Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 590	__________________ "There is no sin except stupidity."

4th July 2019, 10:51 AM	#449
8enotto Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 1,857	Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have? Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike.

4th July 2019, 11:16 AM	#450
Lithrael Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,992	Originally Posted by p0lka I don't really understand why the T is part of the LGBT? The LGB part are fighting against conformity, in the sense of 'Don't tell me who I should be attracted to, I'm gonna be who i want and not conform.' The T bit is all about conforming, 'ooh I feel like a girl so I have to look like a girl', or, 'I feel like a boy so i have to look like a boy', or more generally, 'I want to conform to a gender role, so I need to fit in with that gender role', Why is the T treated the same as the LGB? They're coming from completely different positions? LGB ... don't care I'll do what I want.. T... I need to conform..I need to conform...form...m. Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time. Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to. It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not.

4th July 2019, 11:25 AM	#451
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,871	Originally Posted by 8enotto Other than marriage and "family" related financial benefits what rights were they being denied any other citizens would have? Acceptance and respect CANNOT be legislated into the public mind for anyone. Race, ability/disability or preferences alike. Depending on what state one lives in, one can be fired, evicted, or denied adoption for not being straight. So if you don't mind the risk of being unemployed, homeless, and losing your kids then sure, everything's great!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

4th July 2019, 11:30 AM	#452
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,870	Toilet problem solved: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...festival-crowd
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

4th July 2019, 11:53 AM	#453
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,053	Originally Posted by Rolfe The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause. Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th July 2019, 11:55 AM	#454
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,053	Originally Posted by Lithrael Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time. Like the ‘isn’t queer just gay’ question, the school of thought with people who like queer as an umbrella identifier is that they want a community that includes absolutely everyone who is not just plain “straight, and happy with the gender they came with” because there’s so much shared experience and empathy across everyone who just didn’t/doesn’t feel included in any of the mainstream, gendered, heterosexual common experiences that most people can relate to. It’s fine if you were different and you didn’t care, but a lot of people feel bad about that stuff and want to belong somewhere and a lot of people want to belong to just the big club of ‘everybody else,’ and yes it gets awkward when you’re trying to name each segment of everybody else. And it gets awkward again when a lot of people wants to gatekeep exactly what kind of ‘everybody else’ counts and whether this particular person over here counts or not. Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th July 2019, 03:16 PM	#455
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,169	Originally Posted by Francesca R There's a possible debate about whether some HMs (=hetero males) who consume lesbian-theme pornography are in fact sexually aroused about being female and want to be a girl really and because they can't be they end up hating women so one gets all the trappings of misogyny writ large from these folks. Some think all of them are. Bit of a rabbit hole #parody Yeah, i suggested some As might be bs, Then you came along suggesting that some Cs might be Ds which leads to some CS not wanting to be Ds and Fs are As and Bs are Es and then you mentioned misogyny. Right, **** the alphabet.... where are you getting the misogyny from?

4th July 2019, 03:19 PM	#456
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,741	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made. The first time I saw the "Q" I was told it stood for "questioning", as in people who were kind of gender neutral or really weren't sure about their gender or sexuality. I can't remember how long ago that was, but it was a while back. I think it was even LGBQ when I first saw it. I've since seen it said that it refers to "queer" instead. I suppose there isn't any "official" acronym.

4th July 2019, 03:22 PM	#457
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,741	Originally Posted by Darat Well I object the re-re-purposing of queer! So do I, but I would like to go back to when it had no inherent sexual connotations. Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such.

4th July 2019, 03:42 PM	#458
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,870	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Sometimes it is a bit jarring to read Tolkien, with his references to "queer folk" or some such. Tom Sawyer's still mighty gay, too. You could check in the Mind Your Language thread as well. People just have to learn to read contextually.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

4th July 2019, 03:56 PM	#459
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,059	Originally Posted by Rolfe The answer, quite seriously, seems to be that gay-rights activist groups such as Stonewall were facing huge downsizing and loss of funding and status because they had achieved all their legislative goals. Rather than be out of a job, management decided to adopt the trans-rights cause. Originally Posted by Darat Rubbish. It was because it was only in the LGB "community" that many people who would now be called trans were accepted and felt free from fear and threats so could be who they wanted to. So "they" joined up with the other groupings in terms of activism. Seeing you two argue is confusing to those of us who go off avatars. Anyhow, given that "GLBT" goes back to the early 90s (e.g. this book) it seems fairly counterfactual to claim the "T" was tacked on after gays & lesbians had already "achieved all their legislative goals."
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 4th July 2019 at 03:59 PM.

4th July 2019, 04:13 PM	#460
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,169	Originally Posted by Lithrael Cause there’s really WAY more than one school of thought on all this stuff, and the one you’re describing is only one of them. There’s a lot of trans folks who are NOT about conforming to current society gender roles. People born female-bodied who just want to go on hormone therapy, quit having female breasts, and get called Frank, but keep their personality and presentation pretty much how it was the whole time. Yeah, i agree which is why I said some. I'm interested in this other example you gave, the highlighted. What's happening there? Why do they want to go on hormone therapy, quit having breasts and get called Frank? Seems to me they are aiming for a gender role. Some people I have met, have taken hormone treatment with the goal to average out themselves so they aren't one gender or the other, so I couldn't accuse them of trying to conform to a gender role, they're a mixture of both. Anyway, I thought everyone had family members that were L,g,b or T. I have cousins/uncles/cousins kids/aunties etc and I thought it was common until I checked with other people and apparently it's not, so what do I know
	Last edited by p0lka; 4th July 2019 at 04:14 PM.

4th July 2019, 07:50 PM	#461
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by Meadmaker You are not up on your modern lexicon. A male bodied T would be someone with a male body, but a female gender identity, i.e. a transwoman. According to the modern notions, then that person is really and truly a woman, despite having a penis. So, if that person is attracted to men, then that makes the male-bodied T a heterosexual woman, and therefore certainly not G, nor even L. If "she" is also attracted to women, she could be a B, but that would be true regardless of T status. There will be a quiz on this, possibly in the HR office, or at a hate speech trial if you live in Britain. Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians.
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

4th July 2019, 08:53 PM	#462
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,745	Originally Posted by The Atheist Toilet problem solved: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...festival-crowd I love this: Quote: “We wanted to create the female version of a product which exists all over the world,” she [the creator] explained. “I don’t think it’s that complicated to make a urinal for women. I just think it was something which was designed by men and they only thought about themselves.” So it's men's fault that women couldn't figure out the urinal problem until 2019? Is she saying women really are that dumb? I showed this new urinal to my wife. The issues are many. Aiming would be a problem for her so wet shoes and all that. Touching the sides of the urinal just doesn't work for her. The fact that anyone walking by has the opportunity to see her, and the woman using it can look down into the next urinal when standing, means she would never use it. This isn't going to catch on. It doesn't address the problems of urination the way a urinal for men solves them. I guess it's back to the drawing board.
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

5th July 2019, 01:40 AM	#463
JihadJane not a camel Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 76,646	Originally Posted by Robin Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians. Were these heterosexual men calling themselves lesbians calling actual lesbians who disagreed and/or didn't want to have sex with them transphobes 35 years ago?
JihadJane not a camel Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 76,646	__________________ empty void in space epic wasteland so dark you have no direction and die in sensory deprivation madness all your fault anyway jerk ~ Hlafordlaes

5th July 2019, 02:49 AM	#464
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife I realise that 'LGBT' has become the pert acronym favoured by the media (hence BBC News has a staff "LGBT correspondent"), but not long ago it was the more unwieldy 'LGBTQ' (+) - I still don't understand why the apparent distinction between G(ay) and Q(ueer) was made. Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them. Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

5th July 2019, 07:05 AM	#465
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,053	Originally Posted by Belz... Seems like the Q includes all of the above, so I don't know why they don't just use "queer" to emcompass all of them. Plus, the LGB part is about orientation. The T doesn't really fit there, methinks. It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

5th July 2019, 07:32 AM	#466
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,745	Originally Posted by Darat It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step. By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators?
	__________________ "How long you live, how high you fly The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry And all you touch, and all you see Is all your life will ever be."

7th July 2019, 02:32 AM	#467
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Darat It fitted in because as I may have mentioned the LGB (or in my early days G) "community" were the only ones that accepted trans folk, it was only in gay pubs that you would see trans people relaxing and being who they wanted to be, without fearing violence etc. That built a shared experience so the joining in with activism was a natural step. That's odd because I heard the exact opposite.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

7th July 2019, 03:14 AM	#468
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,076	Originally Posted by Belz... That's odd because I heard the exact opposite. You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely.

7th July 2019, 03:39 AM	#469
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by qayak By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators? Sorry, when???? Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

7th July 2019, 03:44 AM	#470
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by qayak By "early days" are you talking about pre-1980s when all these people had their own hang outs and were able to live the life they chose or the 1980s and nearer when they were set on by police and legislators? Let me be more specific, there was no time pre 1980's when the gay, lesbian or transexual community were able to live the life we chose. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

7th July 2019, 04:55 AM	#471
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,053	Originally Posted by Matthew Best You heard that the LGB community were the only ones that didn't accept Trans folk? That seems unlikely. Yeah, seems very unlikely to me. But perhaps my experience in London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool and even little old Bolton was atypical and the LGs in other areas used to threaten the Ts with violence.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

7th July 2019, 03:11 PM	#472
p0lka Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 2,169	Originally Posted by Robin Define "modern". I remember 35 years ago at least that trans women who were attracted to women called themselves lesbians. Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body.

7th July 2019, 04:03 PM	#473
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by p0lka Nowadays, they can realise that they were never lesbians after all, they were just in the wrong body. No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

7th July 2019, 04:04 PM	#474
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,539	Originally Posted by Robin No, trans women who are attracted to women still call themselves lesbians. Nothing has changed in that respect. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk Evidence? Also, who ******* cares about your device?

7th July 2019, 04:32 PM	#475
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 12,881	Originally Posted by theprestige Evidence? Also, who ******* cares about your device? Perhaps you could try a few seconds of concentrated thought on both those counts. Unfortunately I cannot do that for you. Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"