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Old 12th March 2019, 05:21 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
In the UK broadband is invariably bundled with a landline, and for certain calls they're cheaper than using a mobile, anyway.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I do. Cell service is very poor here owing to geography. We have no cable and no wireless. For TV it's either broadcast or satellite, and for internet, though I suppose there might be satellite connections somewhere, land line DSL is the only real option. 20 years is a way off still. We still had dialup and pulse dialing until well into the 2000's.
Yes I know I know I know! I still use a landline as well. The point of my question wasn't actually whether they're still in use at all but rather to point out to Bob how ridiculous his suggestion is.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:39 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes I know I know I know! I still use a landline as well. The point of my question wasn't actually whether they're still in use at all but rather to point out to Bob how ridiculous his suggestion is.
You never demonstrated it was ridiculous. You never linked your points together.

ETA: also, my suggestion is the current state with no legal right to repair. If it is ridiculous, it is still describing reality.

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Old 12th March 2019, 05:58 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You never demonstrated it was ridiculous.
You don't think something that would never happen is a ridiculous solution?
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:05 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You don't think something that would never happen is a ridiculous solution?
A) genernally, no.

B) There isn't a current right to repair. I described the current reality. If every vendor of a product you want chooses to not grant ability to repair it, you need to use obsolete technology.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:42 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) genernally, no.
- "I suggest that the solution to global warming is that everyone go back to a pre-industrial living condition."
- "That's ridiculous, because it's an unreasonable expectation. No one's going to do that."

See?
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:50 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes I know I know I know! I still use a landline as well. The point of my question wasn't actually whether they're still in use at all but rather to point out to Bob how ridiculous his suggestion is.
Thinking about it though landlines are an interesting example of something very like what's being talked about here. It isn't that long ago that the telephone company successfully forbade the use of any equipment but their own, which they leased, requiring permission to use such things as answering machines, and it took a fair amount of legal work for consumers to gain the right to own and use their own equipment. Historically speaking, at least, land lines are hardly a poster child for consumer rights.
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Old 12th March 2019, 06:56 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
- "I suggest that the solution to global warming is that everyone go back to a pre-industrial living condition."
- "That's ridiculous, because it's an unreasonable expectation. No one's going to do that."

See?
Disagree. Now please go back and address point B.
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Old 12th March 2019, 12:35 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I do. Cell service is very poor here owing to geography. We have no cable and no wireless. For TV it's either broadcast or satellite, and for internet, though I suppose there might be satellite connections somewhere, land line DSL is the only real option. 20 years is a way off still. We still had dialup and pulse dialing until well into the 2000's.

Same as my sister.

And lest someone mistakenly think that she is in the depths of the Yukon wilderness or something, she lives less than ten miles (as the crow flies) from a city of over thirty thousand with a university of as many full-time students, and less than seventy five miles from Pittsburgh.

No cable. POTS only. Internet by DSL.

If someone were to want to bet on cable getting to where she is within twenty years I wouldn't know which way to tell them to jump. I certainly wouldn't put my own money on it.

This is fairly common for that whole area.

Much of the state, for that matter.

Cell phone coverage is worse. Much worse.
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Old 12th March 2019, 12:46 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Thinking about it though landlines are an interesting example of something very like what's being talked about here. It isn't that long ago that the telephone company successfully forbade the use of any equipment but their own, which they leased, requiring permission to use such things as answering machines, and it took a fair amount of legal work for consumers to gain the right to own and use their own equipment. Historically speaking, at least, land lines are hardly a poster child for consumer rights.

I'm not certain, but I think you are still supposed to report the REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) of any third party device you connect to a landline system to the provider, and that the total combined REN load is often limited by them to 5. (Not five devices, but a value of five See wiki.)
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Old 12th March 2019, 12:58 PM   #210
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As of a couple of years ago 2.1 million people still used dial-up and it was the only option for large chunks of rural America.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:14 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not certain, but I think you are still supposed to report the REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) of any third party device you connect to a landline system to the provider...
I tried telling my phone company that information in 1988 and they laughed at me then.

It won't break their end, so it's all your problem if you overload your line.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:31 PM   #212
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How about this?

The controlling agent of a network (phone, cellular, even power grid) has the right to set certain standards for devices that attach to that network.

They do not have the right to dictate how you achieve those standards.

"If you want to connect your widget to my network is has to operate in the frequency of this to that, have an impedance of no more then X, and not cause interference on frequency bla-bla-blah." but not "If you want to connect your widget to my network is has to be a WidgetCo authorized device."
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Old 12th March 2019, 02:48 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
I tried telling my phone company that information in 1988 and they laughed at me then.

Yeah. I know they don't really care, and I certainly haven't bothered with it, but I'd be very surprised if you don't find that requirement buried in the fine print of their contracts anyway.

It can give them a nice out if your service does happen to start going screwy.

Quote:
It won't break their end, so it's all your problem if you overload your line.

Anything that happens between the interface box and the inside of your house is usually all your problem. Not that they won't come and check it out for you, but except for whatever they installed or rent to you they will cheerfully bill you for their service.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not certain, but I think you are still supposed to report the REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) of any third party device you connect to a landline system to the provider, and that the total combined REN load is often limited by them to 5. (Not five devices, but a value of five See wiki.)
I don't think that holds any more. Partly probably because most electronic ringers are so much more efficient than electromechanical bells, but also because nowadays the interface is fused, so an overcurrent just blows the fuse.

e.t.a. I connect to the internet via land line DSL. Overall speed is a little less than 1/4 what is considered high speed internet according to federal standards, I think. 5.6 mbps download, .75 upload. There will never be cable here.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:25 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
How about this?

The controlling agent of a network (phone, cellular, even power grid) has the right to set certain standards for devices that attach to that network.

They do not have the right to dictate how you achieve those standards.

"If you want to connect your widget to my network is has to operate in the frequency of this to that, have an impedance of no more then X, and not cause interference on frequency bla-bla-blah." but not "If you want to connect your widget to my network is has to be a WidgetCo authorized device."
"My network succeeds because of proprietary methods unknown to my competitors, and fragile if not used responsibly. Therefore only trusted devices incorporating my trade secrets may connect. If you like my network, my rules will not be onerous. If you are trying to **** me, kindly go **** yourself instead. "
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:03 AM   #216
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Here's a new twist on the idea of restricting a right to repair: car dealerships are trying to prevent Tesla from repairing its own cars. Even if a customer wants Tesla to do the service, these dealers want to prohibit Tesla from being allowed to.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/16/tesla-service-ban-texas/
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:06 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Here's a new twist on the idea of restricting a right to repair: car dealerships are trying to prevent Tesla from repairing its own cars. Even if a customer wants Tesla to do the service, these dealers want to prohibit Tesla from being allowed to.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/16/tesla-service-ban-texas/
Makes sense dealers hate tesla for their dirrect sales and have tried to get their sales banned where ever they could.
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Old 18th March 2019, 02:08 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Here's a new twist on the idea of restricting a right to repair: car dealerships are trying to prevent Tesla from repairing its own cars. Even if a customer wants Tesla to do the service, these dealers want to prohibit Tesla from being allowed to.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/16/tesla-service-ban-texas/
I was a bit amazed when I came to Texas and found out how deep in the pocket dealers were. I thought we were open for business, but apparently, not fully. It's obscene how much power the dealers have when it comes to car sales in the great state of Texas.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:22 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I was a bit amazed when I came to Texas and found out how deep in the pocket dealers were. I thought we were open for business, but apparently, not fully. It's obscene how much power the dealers have when it comes to car sales in the great state of Texas.

Most of the US, actually. Say what you want about Tesla and Musk, but the dealers networks were working very hard to drive him out of the market when he started selling direct and refusing to go through established dealers and use their networks. Up to and including spending large amounts of money lobbying politicians to create anti-Tesla legislation.

There may be competition amongst car manufacturers for customers, but the dealer networks have had a near-monopoly on sales outlets for many, many decades.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:31 PM   #220
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Didn't the bookstores do that when Amazon started selling online?
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:42 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Here's a new twist on the idea of restricting a right to repair: car dealerships are trying to prevent Tesla from repairing its own cars. Even if a customer wants Tesla to do the service, these dealers want to prohibit Tesla from being allowed to.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/16/tesla-service-ban-texas/
The blatant corruption is really at insane levels here.
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Old 20th March 2019, 07:21 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Didn't the bookstores do that when Amazon started selling online?
For historically reasons, they never had the same political power as care dealers. Car dealers in most of the US have legal monopolies on regional sales of cars. The manufactures can't even drop a dealer, its one of the reasons car salesman have such a bad wrap. The shitteist dealer could have successful business because if you wanted a ford, you had to buy from him and Ford couldn't get rid of him if they wanted. They've rigged the system by buying of legislators for generations. Bookstores never had that clout and never got organized enough until there were only big chains that nobody cared about amazon killing them off. Car dealers suck but there all still locally owned so folks seem to think its worth protecting the local *******.

Its gotten better because the internet means I can pretty quickly find out if the dealership in the next county has my car and whether they are also jerks.
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Old 20th March 2019, 08:46 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The blatant corruption is really at insane levels here.
Welcome to regulatory capture.
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Old 20th March 2019, 08:48 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Welcome to regulatory capture.
But isn't it s good thing? Like how Apple bricks your phone if you replace a broken button because that is what the people want. Why is this so good when it is being expanded to new markets and suddenly not a great thing here?
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Old 20th March 2019, 10:06 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But isn't it s good thing? Like how Apple bricks your phone if you replace a broken button because that is what the people want. Why is this so good when it is being expanded to new markets and suddenly not a great thing here?
Who is arguing that it's ever a good thing? Certainly not me.

I will note, however, that there's a difference between a company putting technological controls on their own product without government enforcement, and a company using government to legally prevent repairs (by the consumer, the manufacturer, or a third party). I'm not in favor of either, but the latter is more troubling than the former.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:43 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For historically reasons, they never had the same political power as care dealers. Car dealers in most of the US have legal monopolies on regional sales of cars. The manufactures can't even drop a dealer, its one of the reasons car salesman have such a bad wrap. The shitteist dealer could have successful business because if you wanted a ford, you had to buy from him and Ford couldn't get rid of him if they wanted. They've rigged the system by buying of legislators for generations. Bookstores never had that clout and never got organized enough until there were only big chains that nobody cared about amazon killing them off. Car dealers suck but there all still locally owned so folks seem to think its worth protecting the local *******.

Its gotten better because the internet means I can pretty quickly find out if the dealership in the next county has my car and whether they are also jerks.
Holy ****, really? That sucks! And is ridiculous. How did anyone let that state of affairs happen?
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Old 20th March 2019, 06:09 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Holy ****, really? That sucks! And is ridiculous. How did anyone let that state of affairs happen?

They were well paid.
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Old 20th March 2019, 07:01 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
They were well paid.
That's true, but the general problem is more generic than that. Small groups which have a very large interest in something can win against much larger groups that have a small interest. Even if the larger group has more total interest in that thing, diffused interest is at a disadvantage against concentrated interest.
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:55 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's true, but the general problem is more generic than that. Small groups which have a very large interest in something can win against much larger groups that have a small interest. Even if the larger group has more total interest in that thing, diffused interest is at a disadvantage against concentrated interest.

Concentrated interest pays more.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:59 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Concentrated interest pays more.
Often, but that's not the only way they can exert political influence. Single issue voters can easily make a difference in an election even in the minority if their opponents on that issue are primarily voting on the basis of other issues.
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