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Old 22nd August 2018, 10:29 AM   #2041
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You haven't yet shown this to be true.

As I mentioned above, the relevant historical commission is still taking petitions and considering them. What law or regulation bars the university system from submitting one?
And again you're believing the "We're not technically banning it, we're just adding more and more steps to the process" game.

The United States Historical Commission hasn't granted permission to take down a statue once. It's a farce. It's a puppet theater. It's a de-facto ban on removing them and you know it.

It's laughably transparent.

State: What are you doing?
School: Taking down this statue.
State: What? Wait you can't do that... because... of a law! Yeah that's it a law!
School: You're saying it's illegal to take down a statue on our own property?
State: What? No that's crazy we're not saying that at all. We're just saying you have to ask our permission.
School: Okay. Can we have your permission?
State: No.
School: Okay. We're just gonna go ahead and take down the statue anyway...
State: You can't do that! You're not following the process!
School: The process didn't work. The process never works. You haven't granted permission to take down a statue since you made the law about asking permission to take down the statue.
State: Well then you have to follow the process to change the process.
School: So the state says we have to follow a process to do something even though never does the process actually lead to us getting to do the thing we want to do?
State: Correct.
School: And your solution to that is to ask the same state to change the process they already doesn't matter?
State: Correct.
School: Do you have any intention of actually changing the process?
State: *Laughs* No... not even a little.
School: That's it I'm taking down the statue...
State: How can you be so unreasonable? Why didn't you follow the process?
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Old 22nd August 2018, 11:04 AM   #2042
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The statue was an act of state-approved intimidation.

In some ways it's a pity it wasn't a bit more overt, like a bronze noose, or a graffiti swastika.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 11:08 AM   #2043
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I would suggest that if the university doesn't want it on show they erect barriers or something similar around it, perhaps use it as an information board about the history of slavery?
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Old 22nd August 2018, 11:41 AM   #2044
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Due process of law.

That's nothing but window dressing when the majority makes the laws.

The majority makes the laws to benefit themselves, they enforce the laws to benefit themselves. And the minority has no recourse to amend the law since they're not the majority.

That is not a fundamental difference, that's just a procedural difference. I'm still not seeing a fundamental difference between majority rule and mob rule; and neither did any of the modern political philosophers whose work forms the foundation for most modern quasi-democratic forms of government. de Toqueville referred to it as the "Tyranny of the Majority", a view that was echoed by Adam Smith and nearly all of the creators of the US government. It also forms a good deal of the basis of the political philosophy on which many European governments are founded as well -- the UK, France, Germany, and so on. Only Switzerland maintains anything like your fetishized majority rule, and even then it has a check in place with the canton system to help reign in potential abuses.

If we were stuck with Majority Rule in this country, we would still have slavery, homosexuality would still be illegal, and any religion other than reactionary, fundamentalist Christianity would be outlawed.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 02:42 PM   #2045
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
<snip>

If we were stuck with Majority Rule in this country, we would still have slavery, homosexuality would still be illegal, and any religion other than reactionary, fundamentalist Christianity would be outlawed.

Those who are old enough might remember that the Southern Baptist Convention was among the leaders of the fight against school mandated prayer when that battle was being fought in the 60s, and remained against it until the takeover of the SBC by fundamentalists decades later.

Also, another reminder that majority rule isn't the issue as far as the statue in Durham was concerned. It was a statue owned by the City of Durham, and the City of Durham was prevented from relocating it by a conservative Republican dominated General Assembly. The majority of the the community which owned the statue had no problem with having it relocated.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 07:45 PM   #2046
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why didn't you follow the process?
What law or regulation bars the university system from submitting a petition to the historical commission?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 03:01 AM   #2047
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What law or regulation bars the university system from submitting a petition to the historical commission?
Jesus Christ, are you just intentionally not reading the thread for effect at this point?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 07:49 AM   #2048
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What law or regulation bars the university system from submitting a petition to the historical commission?
No law or regulation prevents that. Logic however, does prevent wasting time and effort making a submission to a commission that has no legal authority allow the removal of the statues anyway.

The commission has no authority to allow the removal of the statues, even if the Governor himself asks:

Confederate monuments will stay in place at NC capitol after new vote

Quote:
North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper asked for the three monuments -- the monument to the Confederate Dead of North Carolina, to Henry Lawson Wyatt who was the first Confederate soldier killed during the Civil War, and to the North Carolina Women of the Confederacy -- to be removed from the capitol and moved to a Civil War battlefield, but the commission today said such a move cannot happen.

The commission resolved that because of a state law that was put in place in 2015 barring the removal of such statues, they were "unable to recommend the removal or relocation of the three Confederate monuments because removal or relocation is not required to preserve these three monuments."
Quote:
"The commisison's decision essentially was that the 2015 law really does not give them the flexibility to move those monuments," Walker said.
The commission has very little authority to do anything. It is faux due process, for appearance only.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 08:22 AM   #2049
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The creep who dedicated the statue was pro-lynching.

Mobs are a suthe'n tradition. Old times there are not forgotten.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 08:23 AM   #2050
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Civil disobedience is part of the process. By intention.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 08:28 AM   #2051
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Basically we've created a passive-aggressive version of totalitarianism.

Demand people use "the process."
Ensure the process never actually works in their favor.
When the people say the process doesn't work, tell them to use the process to fix the process.
If at anypoint the people go outside the process, claim moral superiority.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:00 PM   #2052
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
No law or regulation prevents that. Logic however, does prevent wasting time and effort making a submission to a commission that has no legal authority allow the removal of the statues anyway.
Thanks for the link to the results of the commission meeting yesterday. It was disappointing to see the commission members take such a narrow view of their role and responsibility in such cases as these, when literally no one else has been legally empowered to say whether "a site of similar prominence, honor, visibility, availability, and access" has been chosen for the permanent home of state-owned memorials to be moved. I suppose the students really have run out of options, now, aside from voting for better legislators or moving to a better state. Time to tear it all down.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:31 PM   #2053
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If we were stuck with Majority Rule in this country, we would still have slavery, homosexuality would still be illegal, and any religion other than reactionary, fundamentalist Christianity would be outlawed.
Wait, what? I thought Lincoln won most of the popular vote.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:36 PM   #2054
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Christ, are you just intentionally not reading the thread for effect at this point?
Did you actually look up the relevant law at some point?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:48 PM   #2055
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Wait, what? I thought Lincoln won most of the popular vote.
In 1860,Lincoln got the more of the popular vote then his opponents,but came nowhere near getting most of the popular vote
The 186o election was a mess, with the Democrats split right into two parties igh down the middle between Northern and Southern wings, The Republicans, and a independent party called the Constituioal Union party (which seems to say just ignore the whole slavery issue and everything will be fine).
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:51 PM   #2056
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The creep who dedicated the statue was pro-lynching.

Mobs are a suthe'n tradition. Old times there are not forgotten.
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Put my White Sheet on again
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Old 23rd August 2018, 04:52 PM   #2057
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did you actually look up the relevant law at some point?
Did ever read enough American History to get some context?
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Old 23rd August 2018, 06:21 PM   #2058
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Wait, what? I thought Lincoln won most of the popular vote.
Lincoln showed no interest in outlawing slavery - only in restricting which states it could be practiced in. The Civil War was not started to end slavery, it was begun to expand it throughout the Americas.

(I'll note than, by it's nature, chattel slavery in the US made the popular vote a gross distortion of popular *opinion*, however, in that the people most likely to object to slavery were barred from voting, as they were the slaves.)
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Old 23rd August 2018, 06:30 PM   #2059
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
(I'll note than, by it's nature, chattel slavery in the US made the popular vote a gross distortion of popular *opinion*, however, in that the people most likely to object to slavery were barred from voting, as they were the slaves.)
Sure, but 3/5ths of them were represented in Congress!
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Old 24th August 2018, 08:31 AM   #2060
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Lincoln showed no interest in outlawing slavery - only in restricting which states it could be practiced in. The Civil War was not started to end slavery, it was begun to expand it throughout the Americas.

The British comedian Mark Steel has a very funny lecture about that.

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Old 24th August 2018, 08:55 AM   #2061
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Lincoln showed no interest in outlawing slavery - only in restricting which states it could be practiced in. The Civil War was not started to end slavery, it was begun to expand it throughout the Americas.

(I'll note than, by it's nature, chattel slavery in the US made the popular vote a gross distortion of popular *opinion*, however, in that the people most likely to object to slavery were barred from voting, as they were the slaves.)
Oh, he was certainly interested in ending slavery, as can be seen in his private correspondence, ie: http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/...ches/speed.htm

Now ,whether his proclamations that he'd rather the Union continue on with slavery than dissolve, was a political lie, or the truth, is debatable.
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Old 24th August 2018, 09:12 AM   #2062
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The British comedian Mark Steel has a very funny lecture about that.

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I like the Mark Steel lectures,

And his take on the French Revolution too.

From your link, I like 13:30 in
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Old 24th August 2018, 10:20 AM   #2063
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Oh, he was certainly interested in ending slavery, as can be seen in his private correspondence, ie: http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/...ches/speed.htm

Now ,whether his proclamations that he'd rather the Union continue on with slavery than dissolve, was a political lie, or the truth, is debatable.

As I recall from my reading, his statement was the truth, but in such a context as to indicate that he was more concerned with preventing secession at that time, and preferred a gradualist approach to ending slavery, which included repatriation of slaves to Africa. It was clear that a flat prohibition on slavery, and the subsequent freeing of slaves, would have triggered the southern states to secede, which was something he and most of the government wanted to avoid.

He was right about that, but wrong in the belief that a mass secession and civil war was avoidable; since the blanket prohibition on slavery in any new states created by the western expansion had already made it inevitable. The southern states could see the writing on the wall by that time, and there was nothing short of full-on pandering to the slaveholders and removal of the prohibition that would have prevented the Confederacy from splitting off.

The war forced him out of the gradualist approach, and made the complete prohibition of slavery and freeing of slaves a necessary part of prosecuting the war, and ensuring that he retained the favour and votes of the growing Abolitionist movement.
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Old 12th March 2019, 07:23 AM   #2064
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Another monument taken down.

http://www.fox29.com/news/confederat...north-carolina

This one was effectively on private property, so permission was easier. The ancestor worshippers still squealing like pigs though.
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:56 AM   #2065
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Another monument taken down.

http://www.fox29.com/news/confederat...north-carolina

This one was effectively on private property, so permission was easier. The ancestor worshippers still squealing like pigs though.
From the description, it sounds like this was one of the "mail-order" confederate soldier statues that were mass-produced and distributed in the 1920s. You know, a real personal memorial.
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:22 AM   #2066
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Another monument taken down.

http://www.fox29.com/news/confederat...north-carolina

This one was effectively on private property, so permission was easier. The ancestor worshippers still squealing like pigs though.
City leaders played that well. They could have claimed ownership and likely meet no resistance. But, by accepting claims that proper paperwork was never completed, they could sidestep the mess and let the private owner take care of things. And... the dumbass Daughters were given plenty of opportunity to have the statue relocated to a site of their choosing, but they chose instead to throw a tantrum and insist it stay where it is. Almost as it they don't really care about the statue as a bit of history that needs preserving...
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Old 12th March 2019, 09:58 AM   #2067
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
City leaders played that well. They could have claimed ownership and likely meet no resistance. But, by accepting claims that proper paperwork was never completed, they could sidestep the mess and let the private owner take care of things. And... the dumbass Daughters were given plenty of opportunity to have the statue relocated to a site of their choosing, but they chose instead to throw a tantrum and insist it stay where it is. Almost as it they don't really care about the statue as a bit of history that needs preserving...
The DotC are playing the same game the Confederacy itself played: Instead of accepting that the world may not give them everything they want they hold their breath and stomp their feet until they end up losing it all.
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Old 12th March 2019, 12:59 PM   #2068
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
From the description, it sounds like this was one of the "mail-order" confederate soldier statues that were mass-produced and distributed in the 1920s. You know, a real personal memorial.

From the article;
"The approximately 30-foot (9-meter) high monument includes a granite statue atop a base and column and was dedicated in 1905."

I think the wave of Confederate "memorial" statues that swept the country in the Twenties were generally smaller and less ambitious. The ones standing in front of fifty or so county court houses here in NC mostly are, and they tend to have come from that era.

But the sources and the sentiment behind it's installation remain the same.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:08 PM   #2069
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Still amazed that the North Carolina Legislature has made it hard for a city to tear down a state the the city owns.....

Some people just won't accept Appotamatox. Or in the case of North Carolina perhaps Johnston surrendering to Sherman is a better example.
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Old 12th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #2070
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still amazed that the North Carolina Legislature has made it hard nearly impossible for a city to tear down so much as even move a state the the city owns.....

FTFY

Quote:
Some people just won't accept Appotamatox. Or in the case of North Carolina perhaps Johnston surrendering to Sherman is a better example.

Fun Fact; Johnston had to surrender there twice. The big brass didn't like the terms of the first surrender (the same as the ones between Grant and Lee a couple of weeks earlier, so they had to do it all over again a week later, with few significant changes to the first agreement.

The site, Bennett Place, is only a few miles from here. It's been kept up well as a state historic site, restored in 1960 after the farm had been abandoned for the best part of a century. A reenactment is held every year.

Not all that popular with the 'good ol' boy' crowd, though.

And oddly enough, no statues of Confederate soldiers, although a "Unity" monument was put up there in the Twenties.
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:52 PM   #2071
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
FTFY




Fun Fact; Johnston had to surrender there twice. The big brass didn't like the terms of the first surrender (the same as the ones between Grant and Lee a couple of weeks earlier, so they had to do it all over again a week later, with few significant changes to the first agreement.

The site, Bennett Place, is only a few miles from here. It's been kept up well as a state historic site, restored in 1960 after the farm had been abandoned for the best part of a century. A reenactment is held every year.

Not all that popular with the 'good ol' boy' crowd, though.

And oddly enough, no statues of Confederate soldiers, although a "Unity" monument was put up there in the Twenties.

I did know about the "false surrender" of Johnston.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:00 PM   #2072
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still amazed that the North Carolina Legislature has made it hard for a city to tear down a statue the the city owns.....

Some people just won't accept Appotamatox. Or in the case of North Carolina perhaps Johnston surrendering to Sherman is a better example.
This is kind of par for the course with the NC legislature, I think. The whole bathroom fiasco that has resulted in many entities steering clear of NC was a legislative end run around Charlotte's attempt to legislate for the 21st century. The legislature insures that no city or region is permitted to be more progressive than the State itself. It doesn't surprise me if they've also pre-empted the towns' right to control their own Confederate statuary. God forbid that any town should be less Confederate than the good old boys at the Capital.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #2073
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
And some say there's never anything good on the news these days.
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Old 13th March 2019, 04:50 PM   #2074
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
This is kind of par for the course with the NC legislature, I think. The whole bathroom fiasco that has resulted in many entities steering clear of NC was a legislative end run around Charlotte's attempt to legislate for the 21st century. The legislature insures that no city or region is permitted to be more progressive than the State itself. It doesn't surprise me if they've also pre-empted the towns' right to control their own Confederate statuary. God forbid that any town should be less Confederate than the good old boys at the Capital.
Yep. There was also the voter suppression efforts that had the federal judge saying "Oh, come on!". They're *also* one of the states that rushed to strip the governorship of any power once the dems took it over again. Their drivers' license renewal process is absurd and expensive as well, according to my mother who lives down there. They're one of those states where the GOP has tried out the "burn everything to the ground" style of governing (Kansas being another example).
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Old 13th March 2019, 06:24 PM   #2075
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still amazed that the North Carolina Legislature has made it hard for a city to tear down a state the the city owns.....

Some people just won't accept Appotamatox. Or in the case of North Carolina perhaps Johnston surrendering to Sherman is a better example.
The same legislature that passed a voter ID law described as intentionally designed to discriminate against black people by the courts. It a mystery why they'd want those anchors of racism in public spaces.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:24 AM   #2076
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DeKalb County in Georgia, forbidden by state law from removing a Confederate monument in its town center, has decided to install a marker in front of it, adding factual context:

Quote:
“In 1908, this monument was erected at the DeKalb County Courthouse to glorify the ‘lost cause’ of the Confederacy and the Confederate soldiers who fought for it. It was privately funded by the A. Evans Camp of Confederate Veterans and the Agnes Lee Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Located in a prominent public space, its presence bolstered white supremacy and faulty history, suggesting that the cause for the Civil War rested on southern Honor and States Rights rhetoric—instead of its real catalyst—American slavery. This monument and similar ones also were created to intimidate African Americans and limit their full participation in social and political life of their communities. It fostered a culture of segregation by implying that public spaces and public memory belonged to Whites. Since State law prohibited local governments from removing Confederate statues, DeKalb County contextualized this monument in 2019. DeKalb County officials and citizens believe that public history can be of service when it challenges us to broaden our sense of boundaries and includes community discussions of the victories and shortcomings of our shared histories.”
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:57 AM   #2077
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Best can be done by the authorities under the circumstances. Wanna bet the next iteration of this law tries to limit this kind of thing?
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Old 16th March 2019, 11:34 AM   #2078
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Best can be done by the authorities under the circumstances. Wanna bet the next iteration of this law tries to limit this kind of thing?

It/they might try, but would have a hard time standing up to First Amendment challenge.

The text for the new marker is well written. My compliments to that community.

I'm thinking the new marker's message could be augmented by a generous planting of decorative greenery around the base of the original monument. Specifically, kudzu.
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Old 16th March 2019, 11:45 AM   #2079
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Personally, this is the course of action I'd like be taken in all existing cases. Force it into it's true historical perspective and turn the tables on those who erected it, and those who continue to support it's placement. Far more effective than all the hubbub that goes into removing and storing it elsewhere. You want it as a historical marker, include it's real history and it becomes one, like it or not.
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Old 16th March 2019, 12:35 PM   #2080
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Personally, this is the course of action I'd like be taken in all existing cases. Force it into it's true historical perspective and turn the tables on those who erected it, and those who continue to support it's placement. Far more effective than all the hubbub that goes into removing and storing it elsewhere. You want it as a historical marker, include it's real history and it becomes one, like it or not.

I also like the kudzu idea to go with it.
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