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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 26th February 2019, 02:32 PM   #321
Hungry81
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And when top tier runners start chopping their legs off and "transitioning" to cloned bio-mechanical titanium velociraptor legs or whatever we can worry about it.



The Paralympics exist because we all get to accept that "disabled" means what it does. We cushion it in a lot of metaphor and euphemism but all get that it means "less abled."



When a person's self identity is defined as belonging to a certain group creating a third group for them is not going to be a viable option.



To (many) transgender people being told to go off and form a third group to keep everything "fair" is going to be like telling a slow runner that he'd be better off competing in the wheelchair division.
Or telling a slow runner that unfortunately he doesn't have what it takes and is cut from the team.

If the slow runner then starts whinging about being oppressed by his genetics and society and demanding to be able to compete against woman and children while taking performance enhacing medicine to become the record breaking sprinter he knows he is inside, and that he is going to be incredibly sad and depressed if no one accepts him in this manner, what do you say to him? especially as phil/phyllis runs past training for the womans division.

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Old 26th February 2019, 02:35 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
For me, the biggest problem with trans gender related discussions is the lack of concern by advocates that people who wish to pursue a transgender life and are encouraged to do so are not as well off as people who wish to pursue a transgender life that are counseled that there is no medical method to accomplish what they wish and they should seriously consider that what they want is impossible.
But there is - at least as much as breast enlargement, hair transplants, and many other attempts to change human anatomy. Even heart transplants are 'impossible' without the body being constantly pumped with drugs to prevent it from rejecting the foreign organ - yet for some reason we don't think of the recipients as being Frankenstein-like monsters.

As medical technology improves your complaint will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:41 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But there is - at least as much as breast enlargement, hair transplants, and many other attempts to change human anatomy. Even heart transplants are 'impossible' without the body being constantly pumped with drugs to prevent it from rejecting the foreign organ - yet for some reason we don't think of the recipients as being Frankenstein-like monsters.

As medical technology improves your complaint will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.
Breast enlargements, hair transplants etc do accomplish what the recipient wishes because their wishes are entirely superficial. Heart transplants accomplish what the recipient wishes because they keep them alive.


There is no medical way to turn a man into a woman or vice versa. If medical technology ever does advance to the stage where that becomes possible we can then revisit the issue of transwomen in sports, but for now they shouldn't be allowed to compete with the girls.
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:06 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Men are far, far stronger than women on average. In the bench press, for example, an untrained man can be almost three times as strong as a woman of similar body weight, with advanced male athletes being around 60% stronger than females. The same is broadly true for all strength measures.
And?

Sport
Quote:
Sport includes all forms of competitive physical activity or games which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing enjoyment to participants, and in some cases, entertainment for spectators.

In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment. But whether it is important or not for a particular sport is up to those who compete in and organize it.
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:15 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Breast enlargements, hair transplants etc do accomplish what the recipient wishes because their wishes are entirely superficial...There is no medical way to turn a man into a woman or vice versa.
But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

Quote:
but for now they shouldn't be allowed to compete with the girls.
Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:15 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And?

Sport


In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment. But whether it is important or not for a particular sport is up to those who compete in and organize it.
You're the one who brought it up:

"Men may be stronger than women on average, but people come in all sizes and physiques, both male and female."

I'm saying that it's pretty much moot what sizes and physiques we're talking about, a man is almost always stronger than a woman. Men are also faster than women and outperform women in almost every sporting metric you care to mention. That's why we have women's sport and men's sport. If we had just sports, women would be restricted to dressage and gymnastics.
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:17 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?
Biologically they are not women, and changing the superficials does not make them so.

Girls are in many cases not happy competing against trans girls, and in some sports they are not safe doing so either.
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:41 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change
Your skeletal structure is not a superficial feature, and you cannot change it from male to female via surgery.
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Old 26th February 2019, 03:44 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment.
In almost every sport, physical strength is an advantage, even if just a small one. In no sport is physical strength a disadvantage.

In some sports, factors such as increased body weight which are associated with increased strength can be a disadvantage, but it is not the strength itself which is disadvantageous.
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:08 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?
"A lot of "girls" aren't happy having to compete with 'trans-girls"
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:38 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?
That's not the case, though, women are not happy about it at all.

Here are just a couple of examples:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/fe...ir-competition

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-...onwealth-games

And when an organisation does step up to protect its women athletes, they're bigots: https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports...0a66cce80b3dd5

This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...es-and-results
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:46 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's not the case, though, women are not happy about it at all.

Here are just a couple of examples:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/fe...ir-competition

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-...onwealth-games

And when an organisation does step up to protect its women athletes, they're bigots: https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports...0a66cce80b3dd5

This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...es-and-results
Why did you throw Caster Semenya in there at the end? She is not a "trans woman", she was born that way and it says "female" on her birth certificate. She may have a rare genetic condition, but she's not a bloke who decided at some point to "transition", she just is how she was born and what her genes make her.
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:56 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...es-and-results
Caster Semenya is a different issue. She isn't transgender. Her exact medical condition isn't public, and she may have some intersex traits, but she's not a transgender athlete. Whatever any sporting body decides to do about her status, it likely won't have very wide spread effect, because she's a far, far more unusual case, one that can't be replicated by choice.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:24 PM   #334
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Replace men and women categories with Strong and Weak.

You try out and then get placed where you belong. That way men can enjoy beating the crap out of women in MMA all they want, because that's what will happen. It already is.

Or maybe these people who don't fit in can make their own categories instead of trying to destroy all sports? Kinda like the PGA Senior tour, or the Special Olympics, or amateur sports, or everyone else in the gawdamn world who isn't a top athlete.

No, everyone is special! I believed Mister Rogers when he told me I was special when I was 4, and I still think I am. I do not expect anyone else to though and I live my life accordingly.

So !!!
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:14 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
...

As medical technology improves your complaint [that it is not now possible to medically change a man into a woman]will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.

It is plausible that it will never be possible to change a man into a woman. It is certainly not possible today which is what I meant in the post that you responded to.


A few comments on this issue:
1. I don't know what it is like to form a belief that one is mentally a different sex than they are. I identified as male early and I always assumed I identified as a male because I was a male and not because I wanted to be a male. This doesn't mean I reject the feelings of people who believe that they aren't mentally the sex they were born, but it is difficult to understand when I can't understand this mental drive to be a particular sex. I think I could be happy as a woman if I happened to be a woman.


2. I worry in these kind of threads that something I say might upset somebody that has seriously gone down the path of living life as a different sex than the one they were born. I would like to make clear that I don't know that there is any value in my thoughts about this kind of thing and regardless I wish somebody that has decided to transition their sex a good and happy life.


3. As I mentioned above it seems to me that men that decide to live much of their lives as women are making a reasoned decision to follow a particular life style . Men can wear women's clothes and behave in ways they see as feminine. If it makes them happy great for them. What I am unsure of is whether the decision to go further and get highly invasive surgery that will not succeed in making the person going through this into the opposite sex is good for the person having it done. In a world where people are falling over themselves to be politically correct on this issue, are the people seeking operations to change their sex missing a coldly candid assessment of the impossibility of what they desire so strongly?
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Old 27th February 2019, 04:25 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Or telling a slow runner that unfortunately he doesn't have what it takes and is cut from the team.
Seems to be an argument for doing away with women's sports completely. I mean if they aren't capable of competing with the best in the field then that's just their genetics and tough luck. Right?
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Old 27th February 2019, 04:40 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think they missed an obvious 4th option

Just have another category

Men, women, trans
And of course cis women who fail the medical gender tests.
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Old 27th February 2019, 05:42 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody said anything about attaching a stigma.

Being a woman isn't a disability. But maybe suffering from gender dysphoria is a disability.

If you're cismale, and an athlete, and competing in the men's division causes you psychological suffering, is that a disability? If the only thing that mitigates your suffering is being allowed to compete as a woman in the women's division, is that a disability?

And if that's the only way to treat your condition, does it really make sense to deny you that option? Does it really help you in any way to have a non-cisgendered division for you to compete in?
Sport isn't therapy for trans people, it's sport, you don't get to take it over because life sucks.
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Old 27th February 2019, 05:57 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Seems to be an argument for doing away with women's sports completely. I mean if they aren't capable of competing with the best in the field then that's just their genetics and tough luck. Right?
Right.

Women are smaller, weaker and slower than men so we should do what exactly? Cease to exist?

Good luck with the childbirth and breastfeeding boys.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:08 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is one thing me and you seem to (mostly) be on the same wavelength on.

Like you I do completely accept that... what Transpeople are trying to get across to society is a legit thing that exists. Stepping back from the labels some form of gender disparage is a thing that people can have.

I just think that, probably through no ill will or bad intention, the concept there were trying to get across solidifying into "identifying as the other gender" took the discussion and the movement (for lack of a better term) to... a less than ideal place. And now that's become the "standard" way of looking at it and as evidenced here it doesn't really... work.

These people absolutely deserve our respect and support and love. But we aren't beholden to conceptualizing it exactly as they do in order to achieve that.
According to some posters here, that means you want trans people to be subjected to bullying until they commit suicide.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:11 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Maybe I should because the rest of you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole of lady brains and men trapped in women's bodies.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, end of.
Well, yes, but so what? If they want to transition, medical technology allows the to do that. If that allows them to live their live more comfortably, more power to them. And if they go through that effort and expenditure, I think it's fair to call them "she", in this instance. However, they are still not biological females.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:13 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nasty conundrum on that.

From a physical - and presumably psychological - perspective, transitioning is much more effective if started before puberty.
Maybe, however before puberty I don't think the child's gender identity can be properly pinpointed. Children, and teens, are often confused about that or are often hard to fit into neat categories. That doesn't mean that once they're adults they won't fit right in. I think transitioning a kid amounts to child abuse.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:15 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In almost every sport, physical strength is an advantage, even if just a small one.
Hell, as I mentioned in the past, even in video game competitions, men have an advantage in clicking and typing because of their body structure. Life's just not fair.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:17 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, yes, but so what? If they want to transition, medical technology allows the to do that. If that allows them to live their live more comfortably, more power to them. And if they go through that effort and expenditure, I think it's fair to call them "she", in this instance. However, they are still not biological females.
No they're not. And actual biological females are getting increasingly sick of it.

Why is it always the women who have to move over and cede space to people who have a politically correct mental illness? How comes men aren't being asked to cede bathroom space or changing room space? Why aren't male athletes being expected to grin and bear it when someone with twice their body weight and skeletal structure wins every gold medal?

Women should go on strike from being female. If you lot think transwomen are really women then let them do the hard bit and bring your babies into the world.


Oh, what they can't? How surprising.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:24 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
No they're not. And actual biological females are getting increasingly sick of it.
Do they? Aside from anecdotes, can you support that? Or are you projecting your own opinion onto other people?

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Why is it always the women who have to move over and cede space to people who have a politically correct mental illness? How comes men aren't being asked to cede bathroom space or changing room space?
Er... they are, actually. By trans men.

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Why aren't male athletes being expected to grin and bear it when someone with twice their body weight and skeletal structure wins every gold medal?
Well, they are. By other men.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:31 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do they? Aside from anecdotes, can you support that? Or are you projecting your own opinion onto other people?



Er... they are, actually. By trans men.



Well, they are. By other men.
My own opinion, as a woman, is that I'm sick of it.

Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Gender dysphoria is basically being used as a trojan horse to drive women back into the kitchen.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:39 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
My own opinion, as a woman, is that I'm sick of it.
See? Why didn't say it like that to begin with, rather than drag all women with you?

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Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
I presume you're talking about giving birth. How about barren women or childless ones? Do they have a right to compete in women's sports? That is such a bizarre argument.

The actual argument is that trans-women have an unfair advantage. That's it. It's the only relevant argument, and since it's convincing, I see no reason to use another, weaker one.

Quote:
Gender dysphoria is basically being used as a trojan horse to drive women back into the kitchen.
Sheer nonsense. What's you basis for this? And how would that work?

Trans people represent 0.3% of the population at best. How are they going to destroy women's rights? You're talking crazy.
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Old 27th February 2019, 06:51 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
According to some posters here, that means you want trans people to be subjected to bullying until they commit suicide.
I've had to achieve an almost Zen like level of acceptance with the fact that I'm always going to be the villain in somebody's story.
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Old 27th February 2019, 08:14 AM   #349
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While weíre on the subject I do completely agree that brutal honesty about what will and wonít turn out great for any particular aspect and degree of transitioning is very important. Being able to reconstruct something lost to accident or disease, and being able to construct something from scratch, are IMO great goals for medicine. But the people involved need to understand the depth of the risks and exactly how much reward is likely or even possible. Most of the trans community seems to think so too. Some of the worst anti-trans sentiment seems to come from people who got involved with early experimental quacks, people who were so eager that they saw only what they wanted to see, and misled one another into awful messes.

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
To the current topic, what I'd advocate is some kind of handicap system. It would take some maths and fine tuning but I don't think it'd be that hard to find the right spot where trans athletes can still win on occasion but don't obliterate the competition. Something like, say the cis male record time is one minute and the cis female record time is one minute ten seconds, let all the women race together but put a (10-x) second handicap on the trans women competitors. It would still hurt some feelings but at a level I think everyone could deal with. You do have to balance 'treat me like x' with 'give everyone a fair shot.' That is, if you want to formally compete in women's sport, yeah, you'd have to be out as trans and get the special rules. It's not ideal but neither is the world.
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Old 27th February 2019, 08:35 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
I approve of this grammatical vehicle.
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Old 27th February 2019, 08:47 AM   #351
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Toot
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Old 27th February 2019, 01:05 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Caster Semenya is a different issue. She isn't transgender.
Now, if you'd taken the extra 20 seconds to read all of my post instead of lazily reaching for the keyboard while still completely ignorant of what I'd typed, you'd have saved me needing to repeat myself.

I typed this:

Quote:
Easy fix - have a "non-binary gender" third grade that allow MtF and FtM trans to compete against each other, along with those of indeterminate/intersex gender, like Caster Semenya and the other two medal winners at the Rio 800m for women.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
... because she's a far, far more unusual case...
So unusual that all three medal winners at the Rio Olympics Women's 800m were intersex.

Not as unusual as you might think, I expect.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Why did you throw Caster Semenya in there at the end? She is not a "trans woman", she was born that way...
Another one who doesn't read an entire post before typing nonsense.

The reason Semenya can go in the "non-binary" gender class is because she is not a biological female.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:23 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by davefoc View Post
Perhaps you would like Farsi? I was having a conversation with my friend that was born in Iran a few days ago and I was amazed to learn that Farsi doesn't have masculine and feminine pronouns. He mentioned to me that this was a part of English that he still has trouble with because in Farsi he didn't need to identify the sex of the individual to use a pronoun.


He ran home and she ran home in Farsi (Persian) from Google translate:



او به خانه زد
او به خانه زد

This brings up an interesting if not particularly on-topic observation.

In view of the historical record of women's rights and entrenched misogyny in Persia/Iran, it would appear that the existence or absence of gender specific pronouns has little to do with the treatment of women within a culture.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:58 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe, however before puberty I don't think the child's gender identity can be properly pinpointed. Children, and teens, are often confused about that or are often hard to fit into neat categories. That doesn't mean that once they're adults they won't fit right in. I think transitioning a kid amounts to child abuse.

Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?

Because that is what is done by any reputable therapists and endocrinologists in the field. They are prescribed androgen blockers which delay a change which all evidence shows that they do not want. And even that is not done casually.

Transgenderism isn't some new fad. It has existed and has largely been accepted by most non-Judaic cultures for all of history. The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender. It is a result of the social strictures forced on the transgendered by social systems which are intent on finding them somehow broken or even abominations.

Just because someone is a child does not mean that their evaluations of themselves are without merit and can be casually dismissed. There is a difference between 'tomboys' or 'sissies' and children who are transgendered.

Their input deserves consideration and review. Kids are not just given fistfuls of hormones because they say they want to try being a different gender. Years of counseling are involved. But their bodies don't operate on the same clock as society's legal definition of competence, and when puberty sets in there is no going back.

It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.

Especially when compared to the psychological costs implicit in refusing such treatment. If you are at all interested in the causes of high rates of suicide in transgender youth that's a good place to start looking. That and the social rejection that goes with being trans in the first place.

That ostracism isn't the sort of thing that a child would choose to be subjected to. There is no good reason to force them to deal with having their bodies against them as well.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:15 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?
I think puberty is part of what makes a child into an adult able to make those sorts of decisions. There is no perfect solution to this issue.

Quote:
Transgenderism isn't some new fad.
You don't need to tell me. There are surely a number of confused or pressured kids and teens who think picking a wacky gender is cool and all, but gender dysphoria is a real thing.

Quote:
The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender.
Er... yes, it is. That's the definition. Transgender people are those with gender dysphoria.

Quote:
It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.
My point is that it's too early to tell at that age.

Quote:
That ostracism isn't the sort of thing that a child would choose to be subjected to.
I hope you don't think I've ever claimed this.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:25 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
<snip>

My point is that it's too early to tell at that age.

<snip>

What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

What is the "child abuse" in allowing a child who has been determined through the treatment of clinicians to be very likely transgender to use reversible androgen blocking therapy to delay that puberty until society has deemed them 'old enough' to make the choice for themselves?
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:54 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.
Still too young for children to understand their sexuality and gender fully. Hell, before 25 it's often hard enough for them.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:00 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.
Depends how you look at it. As a point in a particular developmental process, it's pretty young. The major development into maturity is still ahead.

As a percentage of an average human lifespan it's... I dunno? Entirely subjective?
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:17 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

What is the "child abuse" in allowing a child who has been determined through the treatment of clinicians to be very likely transgender to use reversible androgen blocking therapy to delay that puberty until society has deemed them 'old enough' to make the choice for themselves?
And yet when the child assertion matches the societal mold we don't question their competence to make such a statement.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:26 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?

Because that is what is done by any reputable therapists and endocrinologists in the field. They are prescribed androgen blockers which delay a change which all evidence shows that they do not want. And even that is not done casually.
Prepubescent children do not know what the changes caused by puberty are like, and cannot know until they experience it. Their opinions about not wanting to go through those changes are uninformed. Delaying the choice through androgen blockers doesn't solve the problem, because while they may be older at a later date, they still won't be informed because the only way to truly get informed is to go through the process.

Quote:
Transgenderism isn't some new fad. It has existed and has largely been accepted by most non-Judaic cultures for all of history. The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender. It is a result of the social strictures forced on the transgendered by social systems which are intent on finding them somehow broken or even abominations.
Uh... no. Social systems can place additional stresses on those with gender dysphoria, but if you don't have gender dysphoria, the feeling that your body should be of a different sex than it actually is, then there's no drive to be transgender.

Quote:
Just because someone is a child does not mean that their evaluations of themselves are without merit and can be casually dismissed.
Casually dismissed? No, we should not casually dismiss it. But nor should we automatically defer to it. The fact that they are a child is absolutely relevant to how capable they are of making proper choices. We recognize this in most areas of life. It's not improper to recognize it here either.

Quote:
It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.

Especially when compared to the psychological costs implicit in refusing such treatment.
You say that like there's no psychological cost to the treatment. I don't think that's even remotely safe to assume.
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