ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , Kim Jong-un , US-North Korea relations

Reply
Old 3rd March 2019, 06:29 PM   #2161
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,762
They don't need to be right up against the border.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2019, 06:55 PM   #2162
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,671
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The reason I do not want military drills with South Korea is to save hundreds of millions of dollars for the U.S. for which we are not reimbursed. That was my position long before I became President. Also, reducing tensions with North Korea at this time is a good thing!
BWA HA HA HA!!

He wants a refund for the "military exercises" he apparently paid for in advance but did not use.

Come on, America! How much more of this do you have to put up with before you accept this guy is is off with the pixies.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2019, 07:10 PM   #2163
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 72,159
Bolton's disgusting self surfaced today: The summit was a success because Trump walked away. And he claims Trump saying he takes Kim at his word re not knowing about Otto W doesn't mean Trump believes Kim.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2019, 09:53 PM   #2164
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bolton's disgusting self surfaced today: The summit was a success because Trump walked away.
I'm sure you have more context than I do (Sunday shows?) but actually I think Trump's walking away may be a good development - as long as it's not just some stunt. It could indicate Trump is getting a clue about the true situation.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And he claims Trump saying he takes Kim at his word re not knowing about Otto W doesn't mean Trump believes Kim.
That's a reach and I don't know if Bolton really believes that. I missed what exactly Trump said about Kim's response to the Otto W situation, but I do see small signs that he's not quite as besotted with Kim as he has been in recent months.

It confuses me, because it may indicate that in this one area, Trump is growing slightly less delusional. Not what I would expect.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2019, 10:06 PM   #2165
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 72,159
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm sure you have more context than I do (Sunday shows?) ....
C-SPAN, I didn't pay attention to where he was speaking. Could have been related to CPAC, they've had a lot of that on this weekend. But it was only a couple soundbites, not a whole speech.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2019, 11:00 PM   #2166
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,002
Trump's right: we could save trillions if we stopped wasting money on national defense.
I say we sell it all to China, Russia and Europe, and lease it back when we need some.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 12:48 AM   #2167
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,867
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

I never like being misinterpreted, but especially when it comes to Otto Warmbier and his great family. Remember, I got Otto out along with three others. The previous Administration did nothing, and he was taken on their watch. Of course I hold North Korea responsible....

....for Otto’s mistreatment and death. Most important, Otto Warmbier will not have died in vain. Otto and his family have become a tremendous symbol of strong passion and strength, which will last for many years into the future. I love Otto and think of him often!
What a hot steaming pile of male bovine feces!
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 03:22 AM   #2168
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,390
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What a hot steaming pile of male bovine feces!
It's OK. You can say "********" now since the President did it in his speech on TV. At least twice.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 08:11 AM   #2169
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,869
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
They don't need to be right up against the border.
Is it right up against the border?

My understanding is the majority of Key Resolve/Foal Eagle tends to take place south of Seoul.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 10:13 AM   #2170
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,438
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Yeah, it's just about exactly that. One of the problems they're having is, the Palestinians are really pissed off that the US has moved their embassy to Jerusalem, and acknowledged it as the capital of Israel. The US did that to pander to the right wind religious whackos who are all about Israel's role in the End Times, and just ignored everyone else who has been saying for decades that doing just this will piss off everybody but the Israelis and the whackos.

But, hey, short term gain! WooHoo!
Look that was just the accepting that the two state solution is totally unworkable anymore and so a single apartheid state is the only way to go forward.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #2171
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,438
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is it a good policy?
the only way the military stays effective is to exercise.
If you have two different military forces that are expected to fight together then exercises are even more important.
Sitting in the barracks waiting for a war is a guarantee of defeat.
It is effective at capitulating to such a great leader, one who's greatness Trump and hence the republicans have always admired.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 10:47 AM   #2172
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 20,321
Who knew "Fire and Fury'" would look like we gave up!
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 12:00 PM   #2173
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,956
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How is it a good policy?
the only way the military stays effective is to exercise.
If you have two different military forces that are expected to fight together then exercises are even more important.
Sitting in the barracks waiting for a war is a guarantee of defeat.
He doesn't believe that exercise is good for the human body. Why would the military be any different?
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 12:36 PM   #2174
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,694
Trump:

Quote:
Otto and his family have become a tremendous symbol of strong passion and strength,
Parsing: Otto has become a symbol of strong strength.

Maybe Trump should get Grammarly.

I'm still baffled by Trump's seeming ability to discern that North Korea was not negotiating in good faith during the most recent round of talks. It sounds like Trump actually listened to Bolton, or whoever it was that convinced him to walk away. I wouldn't expect Trump to come up with it on his own, since he seemed so all-in with Kim previously. It comes close to being an acknowledgment that maybe he was giving away too much in return for nothing. It's weird to see him becoming slightly less delusional - it does not fit with my understanding of his personality.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 01:23 PM   #2175
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,373
Trump Tweets

The military drills, or war games as I call them, were never even discussed in my mtg w/ Kim Jong Un of NK—FAKE NEWS! I made that decision long ago because it costs the U.S. far too much money to have those “games”, especially since we are not reimbursed for the tremendous cost!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #2176
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,002
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The military drills, or war games as I call them, were never even discussed in my mtg w/ Kim Jong Un of NK—FAKE NEWS! I made that decision long ago because it costs the U.S. far too much money to have those “games”, especially since we are not reimbursed for the tremendous cost!
So he threw away one of his most valuable cards because he didn't want to hold it anymore?
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 02:00 PM   #2177
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,438
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The military drills, or war games as I call them, were never even discussed in my mtg w/ Kim Jong Un of NK—FAKE NEWS! I made that decision long ago because it costs the U.S. far too much money to have those “games”, especially since we are not reimbursed for the tremendous cost!
Hmm does he actually think these are for fun? Well so much for republicans caring about the military and military preparedness.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th March 2019, 02:29 PM   #2178
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,373
Remember he knows more than the Generals. He is C in C after all.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 03:59 PM   #2179
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,373
South Korean intelligence officials have reported seeing new activity at North Korea's Tongchang-ri nuclear launch site.

Quote:
Less than a week after President Donald Trump’s second summit with Kim Jong Un in Vietnam, South Korean intelligence officials report they have seen indications that North Korea is actively working at nuclear sites the country agreed to dismantle.
https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...02FS3m5GNcUnA/
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 04:12 PM   #2180
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,390
Quote:
North Korea is actively working at nuclear sites the country agreed to dismantle.
Trump: Kim said they are "actively working to dismantle the sites". I see no reason not to take him at his word!
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 06:04 PM   #2181
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,238
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Trump:



Parsing: Otto has become a symbol of strong strength.

Maybe Trump should get Grammarly.

I'm still baffled by Trump's seeming ability to discern that North Korea was not negotiating in good faith during the most recent round of talks. It sounds like Trump actually listened to Bolton, or whoever it was that convinced him to walk away. I wouldn't expect Trump to come up with it on his own, since he seemed so all-in with Kim previously. It comes close to being an acknowledgment that maybe he was giving away too much in return for nothing. It's weird to see him becoming slightly less delusional - it does not fit with my understanding of his personality.
Perhaps it was Kim’s laughter when reporters asked about the hearings back in Washington. He is more likely to do something in a fit of pique than to come to a sudden realization and take action because of having a better understanding.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 06:30 PM   #2182
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,245
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The military drills, or war games as I call them, were never even discussed in my mtg w/ Kim Jong Un of NK—FAKE NEWS! I made that decision long ago because it costs the U.S. far too much money to have those “games”, especially since we are not reimbursed for the tremendous cost!
I think South Korea had better be prepared to be stabbed in the back.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 06:31 PM   #2183
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,867
The laugh of the week was watching Trumplicans try and twist this latest summit failure into a 'victory' because it didn't result in a "bad" deal. Guffaw.

The operation was a great success because, although we didn't cure the patient of lung cancer, we didn't amputate both his legs!
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 07:32 PM   #2184
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,907
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The laugh of the week was watching Trumplicans try and twist this latest summit failure into a 'victory' because it didn't result in a "bad" deal. Guffaw.

The operation was a great success because, although we didn't cure the patient of lung cancer, we didn't amputate both his legs!


Considering that the labeled the Iran deal as one of the worst in history, I have to imagine what they would consider to be a "good" deal.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 09:37 PM   #2185
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,066
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The laugh of the week was watching Trumplicans try and twist this latest summit failure into a 'victory' because it didn't result in a "bad" deal. Guffaw.
In other words, even his fanbois expected him to screw up.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2019, 09:55 PM   #2186
8enotto
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 376
Every nuclear nation is dismantling old nukes and rockets all the time. But obviously discretion is important. You would not want the not friendly neighbors knowing you had no deterrent in place.

Those things are full of barely stable chemicals and compounds. They have a certain shelf life.
Then they make new improved versions to take the place of the old so the deterrent factor stays active.

The pact with the USSR in the SALT treaties so long ago allowed both nations to dismantle a lot of older weapons and not show weakness, by then new nukes were on subs by both sides and less vulnerable than a fixed location.

Good faith? Nah. Just buying time to regroup and rearm better.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2019, 01:11 AM   #2187
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,883
Quelle surprise, North Korea rebuilding Sohae rocket launch site, say observers
Quote:
The images were taken two days after talks between the leaders of the US and North Korea ended without them reaching a deal on denuclearisation.

The Tongchang-ri site has been used for satellite launches and engine testing, never for ballistic missile launches.

Work to dismantle it began last year but stopped as the US talks stalled.

The pledge to dismantle it had been seen as a confidence-building measure between Pyongyang and Washington.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2019, 08:43 AM   #2188
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 13,066
Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
I'm sure Kim would have told Trump if he knew about it.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2019, 05:50 AM   #2189
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,373
Satellite images of a facility near Pyongyang suggest that North Korea may be preparing to launch a missile or a satellite.

The increase in activity is around a site known as Sanumdong, where North Korea assembled most of its ballistic missiles and rockets.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47504723
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 04:49 AM   #2190
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,907
And Today's Latest Progress:

Quote:
SEOUL, March 15 (Reuters) - North Korea is considering suspending nuclear talks with the United States, Vice Foreign Minister Choe Son Hui said on Friday, according to Russia's TASS news agency.

North Korea has no intention to yield to U.S. demands or engage in negotiations of this kind, Choe told a press conference in the North Korean capital Pyongyang, TASS reported.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 06:06 AM   #2191
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19,373
BBC report

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47578451

Quote:
North Korean leader Kim Jong-un may break off denuclearisation talks with the US and resume missile and nuclear testing, a senior official says.

Vice Foreign Minister Choe Sun-hui told foreign diplomats the US threw away "a golden opportunity" at a recent summit between President Trump and Mr Kim.

North Korea had offered to dismantle its main Yongbyon nuclear complex.

But talks collapsed after Mr Trump refused to lift sanctions unless North Korea destroyed all its nuclear sites.

Quote:

Ms Choe said in Pyongyang.

"We have no intention to yield to the US demands in any form, nor are we willing to engage in negotiations of this kind,".

She accused the US of taking a "gangster-like" stance but added that "personal relations between the two supreme leaders are still good and the chemistry is mysteriously wonderful".

"What is clear is that the US has thrown away a golden opportunity this time, I'm not sure why the US came out with this different description. We never asked for the removal of sanctions in their entirety."
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 06:52 AM   #2192
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,907
"the chemistry is mysteriously wonderful"


Jebus, even the North Koreans are confused by this!
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 06:57 AM   #2193
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 26,907
Quote:
North Korea had offered to dismantle its main Yongbyon nuclear complex.

But talks collapsed after Mr Trump refused to lift sanctions unless North Korea destroyed all its nuclear sites.
Quote:
"What is clear is that the US has thrown away a golden opportunity this time, I'm not sure why the US came out with this different description. We never asked for the removal of sanctions in their entirety."


It's just like I've been saying: Mr. "Art of the Deal" has no conception of subtlety or nuance, and simply can't conceive of a series of back-and-forth concessions that gradually move us towards the goals we seek. For him, it's all-or-nothing on the first take, and if he doesn't get it all, you get nothing. This is exactly why he trashed the Iran Deal: because it was a mature, measured, limited policy that advanced everyone's interests, at least a little bit. It wasn't perfect, but it was a **** of a lot better than nothing.

But Trump simply can't grasp that level of complexity.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 08:15 AM   #2194
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,762
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Mr. "Art of the Deal" has no conception of subtlety or nuance, and simply can't conceive of a series of back-and-forth concessions that gradually move us towards the goals we seek. For him, it's all-or-nothing on the first take
I'm sure he believed that simply leaving was nothing but a tactic for part of a negotiation, not the actual end of negotiation. I'm sure of that because it wouldn't even be a weird Trumpism. It's a version of a pretty common standard bit of advice on negotiation in the USA.

The original version I heard was that you must be willing to just leave, which might have started out sensibly enough as a reminder that you don't need to agree to something bad just for the sake of agreeing to something (and the person you're negotiating with might suddenly improve their offer to stop you from leaving). But that got spread around so much over the years that it came to be just expected in some circles, and evolved into another version: that leaving is not just something to be willing to do, but something you need to just do at some point during a negotiation.

For example, a description of how a normal car purchase is supposed to go will include the step where you start walking out of the car dealership and the staff either stops you before you're gone or calls you a day or two later, to tell you about a new better offer they can make now that they couldn't before. That's depicted as not just a last-ditch option for when the salesman just isn't being reasonable, but a part of the expected routine for most-to-all car sales. And that comes from a car salesman, so he's telling everybody that he goes into his negotiations expecting to be walked-out on, and even giving people the impression that salesmen might even think less of customers who don't do the walk-out act.

And because that advice is not just common & simpleminded, but common, simpleminded, and aimed particularly at people who want to project a "toughguy" image, it's exactly the kind of thing Trump would buy into (and probably claim he invented).

He didn't think he was ending the negotiation. He was expecting the car salesman to catch up with him at the dealership door and beg him to stay & buy a car.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 08:58 AM   #2195
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,245
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
It's just like I've been saying: Mr. "Art of the Deal" has no conception of subtlety or nuance, and simply can't conceive of a series of back-and-forth concessions that gradually move us towards the goals we seek. For him, it's all-or-nothing on the first take, and if he doesn't get it all, you get nothing. This is exactly why he trashed the Iran Deal: because it was a mature, measured, limited policy that advanced everyone's interests, at least a little bit. It wasn't perfect, but it was a **** of a lot better than nothing.

But Trump simply can't grasp that level of complexity.
Trump simply does not believe in deals where both sides benefit. Everything is a zero sum game to him.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2019, 04:21 PM   #2196
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 6,867
Looks like the love affair may be over...


Where is the love,
You said was mine all mine, till the end of time
Was it just a lie
Where is the love

If you had had a sudden change of heart
I wish that you would tell me so
Don't leave me hangin' on the promises
You've got to let me know
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.