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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:15 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think it's baffling at all, given that most polling stations are manned by volunteers. If a country is full of people who think only of "me, me, me", as evidenced by theprestige's interminable repetition of that priniciple, and who apparently hold civic responsibility in contempt (again, the evidence comes from the prestige), then how on earth would you find enough volunteers to man polling stations?

Oh, and voter suppression (in the western world), is only a thing in the USA. Literally nowhere else has the problem. Americans commenting in this thread might see compulsory voting as a possible answer to that issue were it to apply to the USA, but that is not a reason you can ascribe to the Australian situation.
Pedantic point. Workers at polling stations are paid by the AEC, and paid well. You can earn a couple of hundred dollars or more on the day. The volunteers are those handing out “how to vote” phamplets.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:17 AM   #202
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Question

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think it's baffling at all, given that most polling stations are manned by volunteers.

Back in the "old days" I would spend a lot of the day handing out how to vote cards, then often hang around until the booth closed and scrutineer for two or three more hours. For a couple of elections I just attended our headquarters and would go to peoples homes and drive the voters to their closest booth when they phoned and said they had no way of getting there.


There were hundreds of us from every party doing exactly the same thing all over the electorate at every booth and presumably every electorate in the Country.


The upshot was of course that after you got back, the free beer was flowing, uuummm... rather freely.




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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:17 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Pedantic point. Workers at polling stations are paid by the AEC, and paid well. You can earn a couple of hundred dollars or more on the day. The volunteers are those handing out “how to vote” phamplets.
Even if paid, that isn't their full time job. They've had to take time out from their normal lives to do this for the community, whether they are paid (as in Oz) or unpaid (as here in the UK). And it's not just time on election day they've given up, because there is training beforehand.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:20 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Even if paid, that isn't their full time job. They've had to take time out from their normal lives to do this for the community, whether they are paid (as in Oz) or unpaid (as here in the UK). And it's not just time on election day they've given up, because there is training beforehand.
All true, but not a bad part-time job. I’d do it for beer money.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:39 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think it's baffling at all, given that most polling stations are manned by volunteers. If a country is full of people who think only of "me, me, me", as evidenced by theprestige's interminable repetition of that priniciple, and who apparently hold civic responsibility in contempt (again, the evidence comes from the prestige), then how on earth would you find enough volunteers to man polling stations?

Oh, and voter suppression (in the western world), is only a thing in the USA. Literally nowhere else has the problem. Americans commenting in this thread might see compulsory voting as a possible answer to that issue were it to apply to the USA, but that is not something you can ascribe to the Australian situation.
Actually MikeG, it also explains what seems baffling about things like cyclones (or urricanes as I keep hearing them called on US tv broadcasts lol, they seem to drop the H for some reason)
Here, when a town gets hit hard- everyone pulls together and helps each other out. When a town I was living in got flattened by a rather bad one, we had people with gennys running cords over the fence to supply their neighbours as well, a communal cookout in the carports with a gas bbq and a microwave as well as internet via the mobile network and several tv's, one for the on air stuff and a couple of smaller ones with video games to keep the kids entertained, as well as quite a few laptops doing the same- one guy dragged a huge chest freezer out and everyone could chuck their frozens into it...
We had no power for five days, and it was actually a bit of a shame when it came back on, there was a great sense of camaraderie, with people voluntarily working in groups to do cleanups, secure roofs etc etc

Compare this with New Orleans etc


eta did anyone else just have the forum freeze on them?
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Last edited by Dabop; 2nd November 2018 at 12:43 AM. Reason: eta did anyone else just have the forum freeze on them?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 12:52 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post


eta did anyone else just have the forum freeze on them?
Yes I did. I thought it might have been the stormy weather, so I re-booted the Internet, and the forum worked. I’ve been congratulating myself, but you’ve just burst my bubble...
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Old 2nd November 2018, 03:36 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If the Aussie Sausage is just the British "Banger"they are available in the US at the fancy gourmet Grocery stores and British themed Restaurants.

BTW I am betting that Aussies visitng the United States get a few laughs out of the "Outback Steakhouse" restaurant chain....
Just a note a banger is not a sausage, it is sausage like. Seriously a product labeled banger will have less than about 30% meat and can't by law be called a sausage.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 03:49 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just a note a banger is not a sausage, it is sausage like. Seriously a product labeled banger will have less than about 30% meat and can't by law be called a sausage.
30% meat? Luxury.....
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Old 2nd November 2018, 04:11 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
30% meat? Luxury.....
And guaranteed best quality pig bum hole meat at that.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 04:38 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm guessing "social cooperators" was more in reference to social insects and other similar organisms. Look at the total biomass of ants compared to beetles.
There are a lot more species of beetles than there are of ants. Beetles have succeeded through achieving enormous diversity, whereas ants are limited to being merely numerous in the same few forms. They're at much greater risk of being wiped out by a single disease than the beetles are. Beetles are so successful it would take a Yoko-level event to exterminate them all.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 04:39 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think it's baffling at all, given that most polling stations are manned by volunteers. If a country is full of people who think only of "me, me, me", as evidenced by theprestige's interminable repetition of that priniciple, and who apparently hold civic responsibility in contempt (again, the evidence comes from the prestige), then how on earth would you find enough volunteers to man polling stations?
Do you think your sample size of one is sufficient to draw broad conclusions on three hundred and twenty five million people?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 04:45 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you think your sample size of one is sufficient to draw broad conclusions on three hundred and twenty five million people?
If I were drawing broad conclusions on 300+ million, you'd be absolutely right. What I am in fact doing is drawing a very tight conclusion about one person, and I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear. One has to step carefully around these things.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:01 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Do you think the US populace is uniquely stupid or that the Australians are uniquely intelligent?
Yes
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:14 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Yes
We've seen Kath and Kim.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:35 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Here is the full text for the non voting Law.






It looks like you would have to try very, very hard to go to Jail without passing go.


Norm
Actually, it looks like you wouldn't have to try very hard at all. Simply ignore all the summonses, and go about your business. Sooner or later, the state will come knocking.

The crime of not voting is a crime of inaction. Doing nothing is easy.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:38 AM   #216
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It does seem like the argument is slowly turning into "Mandatory voting works great because we don't actually enforce it."

Either the law gets people to vote or it doesn't. It can't magically get people to vote without punishing the people who don't. That's not what "The Law" is.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:43 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It does seem like the argument is slowly turning int "Mandatory voting works great because we don't actually enforce it."

Either the law gets people to vote or it doesn't. It can't magically get people to vote without punishing the people who don't. That's not what "The Law" is.
Sorry, are you arguing that compliance with a law is not down to it being the law, but only happens because of the sanctions that come with breaking the law? If so, this isn't something I recognise. Maybe you are from a culture where the law is seen as the enemy, or something.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 07:32 AM   #218
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Kath and Kim? Jeez I watched that as a kid!- it's like watching Miami Vice for what the current police forces in the US are like LOL
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Old 2nd November 2018, 07:42 AM   #219
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The thing is that they DO enforce it, most people will simply pay the $20 fine and walk away- who in their right .... mind would take it to court and rsk losing (which they would) and cop thousands of dollars on legal fees as well as STILL ending up paying the $20 fine?

Anyone that stupid DESERVES to be in jail- to protect the general public from their stupidity....
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Old 2nd November 2018, 10:09 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
No there is BBQ sauce on them- ketchup is practically unheard of here
(some degenerates will put tomato sauce on them, some actually put mustard on them- these people should immediately be banned from voting for life!!!!!)

eta
a perfect sausage sizzle sanga
https://i.postimg.cc/YCHz7m87/sausage-sizzle.png
sausage,bbq sauce and onion
Ah, well then, you are free to rejoin the civilized world. We apologize for any misunderstanding.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:22 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There are a lot more species of beetles than there are of ants. Beetles have succeeded through achieving enormous diversity, whereas ants are limited to being merely numerous in the same few forms. They're at much greater risk of being wiped out by a single disease than the beetles are. Beetles are so successful it would take a Yoko-level event to exterminate them all.
There's certainly plenty of room for defining success, but ants have been around for a very long time, I doubt any disease is going to wipe them out, and it seems to me that the most straightforward way of looking at the success of an adaptation is the competitive advantage that it gives those organisms which adopt it at making use of available energy. Biomass is a pretty good proxy for that.

I agree with you that this is much more subtle than I am presenting it, however, and is probably worth taking to another thread if we actually wanted to discuss it, as I don't think it's particularly relevant to this one. I'm just a fan of social insects.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 06:37 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm just a fan of social insects.
Social, or socialist? A hive full of fellow-travellers, eh, comrade? The People's Formic Soviet Socialist Republic of Australia will not bury us!
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Old 2nd November 2018, 07:08 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Social, or socialist? A hive full of fellow-travellers, eh, comrade? The People's Formic Soviet Socialist Republic of Australia will not bury us!
Hold my beer for me.

“RELEASE THE EMUS! ALL THE EMUS!”
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Old 2nd November 2018, 07:11 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Hold my beer for me.

“RELEASE THE EMUS! ALL THE EMUS!”
With God as my witness, I thought emus could fly!
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Old 2nd November 2018, 08:15 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Actually, it looks like you wouldn't have to try very hard at all. Simply ignore all the summonses, and go about your business. Sooner or later, the state will come knocking.

The crime of not voting is a crime of inaction. Doing nothing is easy.
You are aware that if you don't want to vote in Australia, then you just don't register to vote, right?
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Old 2nd November 2018, 09:51 PM   #226
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Mandatory voting might seem intrusive to some Americans but a couple of points made here have impressed me. One, there doesn't seem to be any efforts at voter suppression which IMO is a growing stain on American democracy. Two, it is bound to result in more buy-in - you have to vote, might as well make the most of it. This seems a reasonable trade-off to me. When one political party in the U.S. is taking measures to make voting harder, I welcome the idea that other jurisdictions take pains to increase turnout. It might not fly here, partly because one bloc goes to great lengths to suppress voter turnout and put obstacles in the way of those who do want to make it to the polls despite those obstacles.

Young people I spoke to today had already voted, so I'm hoping efforts here are succeeding in getting out the vote, especially among young people. The younger folks will live with the results much longer than I will but they might not fully realize that yet.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 10:45 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This seems a reasonable trade-off to me. When one political party in the U.S. is taking measures to make voting harder, I welcome the idea that other jurisdictions take pains to increase turnout.

I don't think that this has been mentioned yet, but there is no identity checks here either. You go to the Polling Clerk, give your name and address, your name is crossed off and you are given a Ballot. That's it.


I suppose some would consider this curiously naive, but again, it works and there does not appear to be any coordinated attempts to fix outcomes in this manner.



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Old 2nd November 2018, 10:58 PM   #228
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I've also scrutineered in a few Australian elections and would like to add the following...

Often a seat will change hands over a margin which is less than the informal vote.

I've only seen a drawing once and it was a "cock and balls".

I've seen many votes disqualified, because the voter wrote their name on the ballot and or signed the ballot after voting. Those ones made me sad, because the people involved probably felt that their vote was so important, that it should be signed.

One election, there was a larger than normal "write in candidate" effect. Many people had written in the name of a popular football coach. So many, I assume that some idiot had promoted this idea. (Australia does not have write -in candidates.)

The mandatory attendance thing is, as someone else pointed out, not even that. You can have your name checked off by returning a postal vote. The vote itself is secret, so you don't even have to mark the ballot inside the voting envelope. The outer flap is removed to record that you have participated, and the ballot paper (inside the sealed envelope) goes into the pool to be opened and counted after the election.

The whining about how bad this all is sounds utterly bizarre to me.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 11:37 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's the thing, though. Individuals aren't freely acting together. If they were, they wouldn't need a law, and a threat, to compel it. Again, if Australians are so enthusiastic about voting, why do they need a law?
This is beside the point. When voting is voluntary candidates not only have to advertise for votes but they have to persuade their voters to actually go to the polls. I'm not sure of the original motivation for compulsory voting but that would be a factor.

Low voter turnouts tend to favour the conservative side of politics (hence the Republican attempts to make voting difficult in the US). I'm sure that the Libs/Nats would must love to remove compulsion from voting but Australians have lived with compulsory voting all of their lives and they are not about to go along with any "reform" that favours one party over another.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 11:48 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Britain has always had a default sausage for as long as I can remember (in the interests of specificity, that would be since 1962). It's only ever been called a British Sausage in Yes, Minister.

Dave


What is the exact recipe for the making of the default sausage in Britain?

Can I depend on getting exactly that whenever I order a sausage in Britain, or do I have to specify "default" sausage?

You should consider yourself fortunate, I think. Any typical U.S. supermarket of average or better size offers a generally bewildering array of sausages, including something approximating a zillion variations on the so-called 'traditional' hot dog, and continuing through a nearly equal number of variations (of significantly diverse authenticity and success) of sausages of just about every ethnic and national provenance.

Anything which might be consider a 'default' changes radically depending on region and/or venue.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:02 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that if you don't want to vote in Australia, then you just don't register to vote, right?
I mentioned it.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:08 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
.......there is no identity checks here either. You go to the Polling Clerk, give your name and address, your name is crossed off and you are given a Ballot........
Exactly the same here. Except you don't give your address.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:15 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Exactly the same here. Except you don't give your address.
All works pretty well when politics is not a war of dirty tricks between two hyper-polarised groups.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:26 AM   #234
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Our polling booth is at our local school. Usually there’s a sausage sizzle and a couple of stalls selling homemade cakes for school fundraising, which is good if there’s a bit of a queue.

Standing in the queue we generally chat with whoever else is there, and it’s always about what else they’re going to do with the rest of the day. Oh, and we usually have a giggle at the size of the ballot paper.

It’s a very relaxed and friendly, really.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 01:30 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Our polling booth is at our local school. Usually there’s a sausage sizzle and a couple of stalls selling homemade cakes for school fundraising, which is good if there’s a bit of a queue.

Standing in the queue we generally chat with whoever else is there, and it’s always about what else they’re going to do with the rest of the day. Oh, and we usually have a giggle at the size of the ballot paper.

It’s a very relaxed and friendly, really.
Agreed.

I will be in Perth on Victoria’s polling day in a few weeks. I will have to pre-poll. I will miss the normal routine.
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Old 3rd November 2018, 03:44 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Agreed.

I will be in Perth on Victoria’s polling day in a few weeks. I will have to pre-poll. I will miss the normal routine.
I'm with you on that one. I'd really miss it if I had to skip a polling day.

I often catch up with neighbours from adjacent streets that I haven't seen since the last polling day. Of course it helps that I was a candidate once. (That plus the cute dogs, everybody likes cute dogs)
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Old 4th November 2018, 08:15 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We've seen Kath and Kim.
And made a terrible copy. QED.
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Old 4th November 2018, 05:17 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It does seem like the argument is slowly turning into "Mandatory voting works great because we don't actually enforce it."
Kind of. It's more like "Mandatory voting works great because we don't have to actually enforce it".
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Old 4th November 2018, 05:28 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
The whining about how bad this all is sounds utterly bizarre to me.
What's bizarre to me is how vociferously people will defend their right to not care.
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Old 4th November 2018, 05:58 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Kind of. It's more like "Mandatory voting works great because we don't have to actually enforce it".

and because...





Norm
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