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Old 6th November 2018, 05:57 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The biggest objection is voting (and choosing not to vote) is an act of expression. Forced voting is compelled speech by government and a restriction on expression. I generally don't think the government should do that.
There are almost always cost benefit tradeoffs in decisions. Be flogging a dead horse to go over these again for mine. You seem to be leaving us hanging with your final sentence - “I dont generally dont think the government should because...”
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:01 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
There are almost always cost benefit tradeoffs in decisions. Be flogging a dead horse to go over these again for mine. You seem to be leaving us hanging with your final sentence - “I dont generally dont think the government should because...”
My views are deontological. There would be no cost or benefit that would make it acceptable. Just as there is no amount of benefit that could justify a policy of comfort women.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:25 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Australia: You should do mandatory voting like we do!..........!
From the OP:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...........The headline is a little misleading, since no-one here is telling America how to fix its voting system.......
Not sure why you quoted me to make that point. I'm a Brit. I've never voted in Oz.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:47 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Not sure why you quoted me to make that point. I'm a Brit. I've never voted in Oz.
That's even worse, you're berating Americans for not doing as the Australians do when you don't do it that way either!
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:23 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's even worse, you're berating Americans for not doing as the Australians do when you don't do it that way either!
I thought that MikeG was berating theprestige for saying that this is not the American way.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:34 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's even worse, you're berating Americans for not doing as the Australians do when you don't do it that way either!
You've made this mistake before: thinking I am making a general point, when my post was directed extremely specifically.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:41 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I don't think it's baffling at all, given that most polling stations are manned by volunteers. If a country is full of people who think only of "me, me, me", as evidenced by theprestige's interminable repetition of that priniciple, and who apparently hold civic responsibility in contempt (again, the evidence comes from the prestige), then how on earth would you find enough volunteers to man polling stations?
Yes, the report I referenced earlier said that the US authorities had an uphill struggle getting volunteers to man polling places. However, given that it seems that they're open for the better part of a week, that's hardly surprising. America really seems to have made some terrible choices that have probably made the whole voting process worse, rather than better.

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Old 6th November 2018, 11:29 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Australia: You should do mandatory voting like we do!
America: No thanks, we don't want to.
Australia: You arrogant bastards, stop telling us how to run our country! MOM! America's being imperialist!
That seems like a complete inversion of how this debate has actually gone.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:01 PM   #289
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:22 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My views are deontological. There would be no cost or benefit that would make it acceptable. Just as there is no amount of benefit that could justify a policy of comfort women.
That’s nice. If you feel like it, go ahead and frame your freedomz vs compulsory voting in the contemporary Australian comtext argument in deontological terms.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:31 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
That’s nice. If you feel like it, go ahead and frame your freedomz vs compulsory voting in the contemporary Australian comtext argument in deontological terms.
The problem with deontological arguments is simple: who decides? Deontological arguments are by definition arbitrary. And they are therefore worthless and without practical value.

Bob's deontological argument takes the form "mandatory voting is inherently wrong because I say it's wrong." You can't discuss or argue against that. It's like arguing with a solipsist.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:37 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Australia: You should do mandatory voting like we do!
America: No thanks, we don't want to.
Australia: You arrogant bastards, stop telling us how to run our country! MOM! America's being imperialist!
Trump’s America is clearly in no position to lecture on democracy or how to run elections. Being told we are doing it wrong by Americans is laughable.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:40 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The problem with deontological arguments is simple: who decides? Deontological arguments are by definition arbitrary. And they are therefore worthless and without practical value.

Bob's deontological argument takes the form "mandatory voting is inherently wrong because I say it's wrong." You can't discuss or argue against that. It's like arguing with a solipsist.
Meanwhile a lot of our arguments have been ones based on a shared feeling of duty that overides, or even bonds with, a minor imposition/duty and compulsion.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:42 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Trump’s America is clearly in no position to lecture on democracy or how to run elections. Being told we are doing it wrong by Americans is laughable.
Yeah, because

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
is America telling Australia it's doing it wrong.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:55 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, because



is America telling Australia it's doing it wrong.
Right, when the article was really, “America has a look at how Australians do things [while fishing for solutions to our broken system].” Arth trolled.
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Old 6th November 2018, 05:57 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, because



is America telling Australia it's doing it wrong.
As I explained in the OP, the NYT's headline is misleading. That's why I didn't use the NYT headline as the title of the thread. There is nothing in the article that consists of either country telling either that they're doing it wrong.

Most of the "you're doing it wrong" rhetoric has come from theprestige, who has expended a great deal of effort making sure we understand that it's important to him that he is able to express the fact that he doesn't give a ****.
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:45 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Meanwhile a lot of our arguments have been ones based on a shared feeling of duty that overides, or even bonds with, a minor imposition/duty and compulsion.

When I was handing out cards and as a scrutineer, during quiet times (in smaller booths, this would be quite often after the early morning rush especially in the days when the booths did not close till 8:00PM), all of us from every party would get together and just chat for a while, find out about each others interests and lives, and discuss just about any subject that we could think of. No animosity, just people with a common purpose having a good time doing something we enjoyed.


Some people seem innocent of this sort of attitude.



Norm
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Old 6th November 2018, 06:56 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I explained in the OP, the NYT's headline is misleading.
The title of the article is "How Compulsory Voting Works: Australians Explain" which seems less misleading than "Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System".
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Old 6th November 2018, 07:11 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The title of the article is "How Compulsory Voting Works: Australians Explain" which seems less misleading than "Australia Tells America: Here’s How to Fix Your Voting System".
I notice that the article now bears a banner that reads This story was updated on Nov. 5, 2018. This is after I made the OP in this thread. The headline has been changed since I posted it, probably because it was pretty darn misleading.
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Old 6th November 2018, 09:51 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The biggest objection is voting (and choosing not to vote) is an act of expression. Forced voting is compelled speech by government and a restriction on expression. I generally don't think the government should do that.
You forget that nobody is forced to cast a valid vote. You don't even have to fill out the ballot paper (just put it in the box) so there is no restriction on expression.

It is a minor inconvenience having to trudge to the polling booth every year or so and it certainly is a limitation on freedom of choice. However, (especially compared to other ways the government attacks our liberty) it is not a serious enough issue to warrant any chest beating over.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:01 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You forget that nobody is forced to cast a valid vote. You don't even have to fill out the ballot paper (just put it in the box) so there is no restriction on expression.

It is a minor inconvenience having to trudge to the polling booth every year or so and it certainly is a limitation on freedom of choice. However, (especially compared to other ways the government attacks our liberty) it is not a serious enough issue to warrant any chest beating over.
Especially since, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, it really does work very well indeed.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:01 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You forget that nobody is forced to cast a valid vote. You don't even have to fill out the ballot paper (just put it in the box) so there is no restriction on expression.

It is a minor inconvenience having to trudge to the polling booth every year or so and it certainly is a limitation on freedom of choice. However, (especially compared to other ways the government attacks our liberty) it is not a serious enough issue to warrant any chest beating over.
Not putting something in the box is an act of expression.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:06 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not putting something in the box is an act of expression.
It's literally not. It's not an act at all, of expression or anything else.

Why should anyone pay attention to someone who chooses not to express an opinion?
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not putting something in the box is an act of expression.
What does it express? Your disgust or disdain with the range and/or policies of candidates? Your laziness? Missed the bus? Forgot? How does not voting carry that expression you wish to convey to the government?
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:10 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Especially since, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, it really does work very well indeed.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What does it express? Your disgust or disdain with the range and/or policies of candidates? Your laziness? Missed the bus? Forgot? How does not voting carry that expression you wish to convey to the government?
It can express all those things. There isnt a requirement that the target of the message has to receive to be expression. I can paint as many paintings and never release them. I'm still engaged in an act of expression.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:16 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It can express all those things. There isnt a requirement that the target of the message has to receive to be expression. I can paint as many paintings and never release them. I'm still engaged in an act of expression.
If a vote is never cast in a forest and nobody hears it fall, is it still a vote?

Sure, you can sit at home and rage at the TV. That's expression, sure. But the TV doesn't (usually) make your laws and provide your services.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:42 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not putting something in the box is an act of expression.
So is not going to the polling booth.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:45 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So is not going to the polling booth.
Which I'm saying people shouldn't be forced to do.
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:58 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which I'm saying people shouldn't be forced to do.
I suspect your definition of "forced" and ours vary on this subject.
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Old 6th November 2018, 11:09 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which I'm saying people shouldn't be forced to do.
I have already dealt with that aspect (post #315). It's not a big enough issue in Australia to make a song and dance out of.
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Old 6th November 2018, 11:12 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have already dealt with that aspect (post #315). It's not a big enough issue in Australia to make a song and dance out of.
I don't find any inconvenience acceptable on this issue. You certainly didn't address me.

Forced inserting a blank ballot is forced expression.
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Old 6th November 2018, 11:47 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So is not going to the polling booth.
Which I'm saying people shouldn't be forced to do.
And your argument is that being forced to do so amounts to compelled speech, but if going to the polling booth and not voting is also compelled speech (as you say), then so does not being forced to do so: not going to the polling booth and not voting is as much a form of expression as going to the polling booth and not voting.

So, why don't you object to all democratic elections on the grounds that they amount to compelled speech?
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Old 6th November 2018, 11:49 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
can we start with the premise that it is reasonable to conclude that free speech is morally good? Because to get there takes an extremely long time.
Of course not. We might agree that free speech is usually a good thing, but to define is as axiomatically good is ridiculous.

If you have an argument that shows that free speech is always good, then make it.
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Old 7th November 2018, 01:00 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Instead of allowing Bob to direct this thread off in the direction he wants to take it, why don't you ask him if he has anything to say on the matter of Australia's voting system? This isn't a general thread about philosophy and free speech.
Well, to be fair I think everything that needed saying about Australia's voting system has been said. All the objections to it seem, to me, to have been addressed, so entertaining Bob's philosophical arguments isn't really going to distract us from more meaningful discussion.

Unless theprestige comes back and replies to the criticisms of his viewpoint, anyway.
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Old 7th November 2018, 02:24 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't find any inconvenience acceptable on this issue. You certainly didn't address me.

Forced inserting a blank ballot is forced expression.
You live in a society with many rules and obligations required for its smooth functioning, even in America that land of the free. Voting in Australia, as has been well described here, is a minor imposition for even the grumpiest curmudgeon.
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Old 7th November 2018, 05:17 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And your argument is that being forced to do so amounts to compelled speech, but if going to the polling booth and not voting is also compelled speech (as you say), then so does not being forced to do so: not going to the polling booth and not voting is as much a form of expression as going to the polling booth and not voting.

So, why don't you object to all democratic elections on the grounds that they amount to compelled speech?
I do object to that. I regularly come out against democracy here
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Old 7th November 2018, 05:20 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
You live in a society with many rules and obligations required for its smooth functioning, even in America that land of the free. Voting in Australia, as has been well described here, is a minor imposition for even the grumpiest curmudgeon.
I'm saying smooth functioning society is not sufficient justification for the imposition.
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Old 7th November 2018, 05:58 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, because



is America telling Australia it's doing it wrong.


Published in that popular mouthpiece of the Australian people, The New York Times.
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:01 AM   #319
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And your argument is that being forced to do so amounts to compelled speech, but if going to the polling booth and not voting is also compelled speech (as you say), then so does not being forced to do so: not going to the polling booth and not voting is as much a form of expression as going to the polling booth and not voting.

So, why don't you object to all democratic elections on the grounds that they amount to compelled speech?
You convinced me. Since we voting is expression, you are right that it is a right violation for the government to prevent people from casting more than one vote.


See, minds can be changed here.
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Old 7th November 2018, 09:37 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm saying smooth functioning society is not sufficient justification for the imposition.
Oh well. Most of us do. Maybe one day while muching on a sausage sanga on a Saturday after voting someone will put two and two together about this unjustifiable imposition on our freedomz. Might take a while though becuause your sentence above looks absolutely bizarre accross the cultural chasm.

And by the way. Your Kantian ethics seems to have fallen off and you have gone all Jeremy Bentham on us.
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