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Tags anti-semitism charges , Ilhan Omar , Kevin McCarthy , Minnesota politics , Twitter incidents

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Old 11th February 2019, 11:49 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're still avoiding the actual issue here. Being against some of Israel's policies does not equal BDS. Being opposed to BDS does not equal being in favor of all of Israel's policies. And most importantly, being against this anti-BDS legislation because of free speech concerns doesn't equal accusing supporters of the legislation as being bought off by the Jews.
There is no issue. This call of anti-semitism is merely a red herring. I want peace in the Middle East as much as anyone. The parties of God won't allow it. And the roughshod way Israel handles the Palestinian problem doesn't help any more than the disgusting and anti-democratic methods of the Muslims. You can argue that the Congresswoman's views are anti-israel. That is totally fair. But that doesn't make them anti-semitic.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
To be honest I see it more as anti-politicians who support Israel. Does anybody really believe that a lot of members of congress only support Israel because AIPAC fills their coffers? Isn't it much more likely that they support Israel, and therefore the support from AIPAC comes?
I think both are likely to be true to an extent.

Regardless, calling that out isn't anti-semitic.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
She wasn't simply pointing out that lobbying exists.
Ya, she was speculating on a motive McCarthy might have for prioritizing legislation that in no way benefits the American public and in fact, may violate the First Amendment. That motive being continued support from the lobbying group that vocally supports this legislation.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #164
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Most people in both parties who support Israel do so not so much becuath they are bought, but because it just smart politics;that gets you votes, being critical of Israel ,outside a few heavily left leaning districts on the East and West coasts does not.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:53 AM   #165
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Pelosi just condemned Omar's statement as Anti Semitic. Now the fat will be in the fire.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:55 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
To be honest I see it more as anti-politicians who support Israel. Does anybody really believe that a lot of members of congress only support Israel because AIPAC fills their coffers? Isn't it much more likely that they support Israel, and therefore the support from AIPAC comes?
Thats the argument. But it's hard to ignore the huge sums of money AIPAC spends lobbying American politicians. It's probably a bit of both. I'm much more sympathetic towards the Jewish people because of their mostly democratic government. But we also shouldn't ignore their effect on our own democracy.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:56 AM   #167
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The Anti BDS bill is stupid..and I strongly oppose the BDS movement.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:56 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
To be honest I see it more as anti-politicians who support Israel. Does anybody really believe that a lot of members of congress only support Israel because AIPAC fills their coffers? Isn't it much more likely that they support Israel, and therefore the support from AIPAC comes?
I don't think it hurts. I mean, the arms manufactures' support probably does just as much.

Yes, Israel is an important strategic and political ally, but how does the legislation in question benefit Americans or our relationship with Israel?
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:57 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I don't think it hurts. I mean, the arms manufactures' support probably does just as much.

I mean, Israel is an important strategic and political ally, but how does the legislation in question benefit Americans or our relationship with Israel?
Oh please, not the "Merchants of Death" nonsense again.
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Old 11th February 2019, 11:58 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh please, not the "Merchants of Death" nonsense again.
Someone rang?
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Most people in both parties who support Israel do so not so much becuath they are bought, but because it just smart politics;that gets you votes, being critical of Israel ,outside a few heavily left leaning districts on the East and West coasts does not.
But this isn't being critical of Israel itself. This is being critical of a bill that for no apparent reason was highly prioritized despite all of the 1A issues.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:01 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Oh please, not the "Merchants of Death" nonsense again.
Ya, its not like our allies in the area are huge customers or anything.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:02 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Anti BDS bill is stupid..and I strongly oppose the BDS movement.
I'm not for it either. But that doesn't make it antisemitic.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But this isn't being critical of Israel itself. This is being critical of a bill that for no apparent reason was highly prioritized despite all of the 1A issues.
I know. But Omar would have better off without the "all about the Benjy's " remark. Now the Anti BDS bill..which I am opposed to...has been forgotten in the uproar.
WIth that little remark, she, probably unitetionally, handed her opponents a victory.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:04 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is no issue. This call of anti-semitism is merely a red herring.
You can't declare the conclusion in order to prove the conclusion. That's not how argumentation works.

Quote:
You can argue that the Congresswoman's views are anti-israel. That is totally fair. But that doesn't make them anti-semitic.
That isn't the basis for the claim.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Anti BDS bill is stupid..and I strongly oppose the BDS movement.
PICK A SIDE!!
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Most people in both parties who support Israel do so not so much becuath they are bought, but because it just smart politics;that gets you votes, being critical of Israel ,outside a few heavily left leaning districts on the East and West coasts does not.

Yea they managed to capture much better optics than their former military and nuclear partner South Africa did in the 80's. When SA dressed up their ghettos as separate nations you didn't have anyone buying into it.

You can't exactlty have a two state solution when there simply can not be a real border anymore(no way are they going to forcibly relocate 10% of their population never going to happen) and preventing the state from getting the resources to even begin to function. There really is no solution and that clearly works for many major powers there. But do you see anyone accepting that that dream of the 80's is dead and they need to give up on it and come up with a single state solution? Of course not the optics are all wrong.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:07 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Now the Anti BDS bill..which I am opposed to...has been forgotten in the uproar.
Do you honestly think a rational discussion of American foreign policy in relation to Israel is on anybody having this discussion's priority list?

Here this article sums it up just in its title alone and wraps it up with it's final line.

https://splinternews.com/everyone-is-dumb-1832517641
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I know. But Omar would have better off without the "all about the Benjy's " remark.
Someone rang?
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:12 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Someone rang?
It's the Historian in me coming out.
After the First World there was a widespread conspiracy theory that Arms Mrechants were a major cause of the First World War. It Turned out to be totally baseless,and no Histoiran takes it seriously nowdays.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:20 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
PICK A SIDE!!
"I disagree strongly with what you say,but will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire.

I can't recommend Deborah Lipstadt's New Book "Anti Semitism" strongly enough. In her preface she hopes that people on both the left and the right will be forced to look at themselves by what she says.
She is very critical of the BDS movement..she does not think it's automatically Anti Semitic, but she does fell it has embraced a number of Anti Semites. But she strongly opposed Anti BDS legislatation as a free speech violation.
BTW, she is very cirtical of Bibi and current Israeli policy.but thinks the BDS movement might be backfiring on itself.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:25 PM   #182
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Say, the freshman Congressman who is excited that her anti-Israeli comments are inciting a debate is likewise equally excited to appear in a fund raiser with a pro-terrorism fanatic Yousef Abdallah

cool cool
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:27 PM   #183
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Hey,TBD, you going to be critical of Trump over his buddying up to the Right Wing Anti Semites in "alt right"?.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:27 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW, she is very cirtical of Bibi and current Israeli policy.but thinks the BDS movement might be backfiring on itself.
It often happens with movements; they attract all sorts of people who may damage their brand.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:32 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
That has not been the case on this forum.
Given that I don't think the vast majority of Americans are even aware that it is suppose to be an insult or even notice the difference, I'm unconvinced.

So, who on the forum is still using Democrat Party out of spite rather than ignorance and laziness? Where have they offered a different reason? How do you know they are lying?
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:32 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's the Historian in me coming out.
After the First World there was a widespread conspiracy theory that Arms Mrechants were a major cause of the First World War. It Turned out to be totally baseless,and no Histoiran takes it seriously nowdays.
I know. I was just playing on my custom title.

But really, I sell Doom, not Death. Although closely related, you'd be surprised at the differences which may not be apparent to laypersons.

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Old 11th February 2019, 12:32 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It often happens with movements; they attract all sorts of people who may damage their brand.
The problem is that the BDS movement boycott extends to anybody who is a Israeli Citizen. It's not just a case of boycotting the Israeli government;anybody from Israel should be ostricised.
This kind of crap actually probably strengthens the hard liners in Israel;they are doing Bibi a favor.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, who on the forum is still using Democrat Party out of spite rather than ignorance and laziness? Where have they offered a different reason? How do you know they are lying?
Just use DP.

"Are you in the DP?"

"Oh, yeah, I love to be in the middle of DP!"

"I do DP all the time!"

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Old 11th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Get used to it. As we continue importing Muslims into the country and allowing the ones who are here to breed, they're going to gain political power. Pretty soon saying that lobbyists influence politicians through campaign contributions won't even be considered antisemitic.
How should we be preventing Muslims from breeding? Do you favor sterilization, or should we just kill them?
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:37 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Hey,TBD, you going to be critical of Trump over his buddying up to the Right Wing Anti Semites in "alt right"?.
hey dudalb, y'all gonna learn what an tu quoque fallacy is and stop derailing every single thread with bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-but-TRUMPIES.

Seriously, at some point while you are typing that you had to have realized that it has nothing to do with the thread and absolutely nothing at all to do with my post.

Terminal Trump Derangement Syndrome.

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Old 11th February 2019, 12:40 PM   #191
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Hell, even Pelosi calls her statements anti-Semitic:

https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/st...26564503343104
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:45 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hell, even Pelosi calls her statements anti-Semitic:

https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/st...26564503343104
"See! See! Someone from your side says it! You have to agree with it!"

The Democrats and Republicans are not (or at least shouldn't be) monolithic Borg entities. Honest disagreement within their ranks should be celebrated, not thrown back in their face to score points.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:47 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"See! See! Someone from your side says it! You have to agree with it!"

The Democrats and Republicans are not (or at least shouldn't be) monolithic Borg entities. Honest disagreement within their ranks should be celebrated, not thrown back in their face to score points.
"Ha ha ha! Look, the other side is not completely in agreement on anything! That's a weakness. Our side agrees on everything. That's a strength!"

That sure explains why some posters here ALWAYS side with the same party.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:49 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Ha ha ha! Look, the other side is not completely in agreement on anything! That's a weakness. Our side agrees on everything. That's a strength!"

That sure explains why some posters here ALWAYS side with the same party.
Slavish devotion to the definition of an ideal, consistency being a higher value then being right, total inability to think outside the context of the labels and the boxes.

In politics most people are a Bob.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:52 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can't declare the conclusion in order to prove the conclusion. That's not how argumentation works.
It's NOT anti-semitic PERIOD. This is about standing against Israeli policies. Being anti-semitic is promoting racism against people that are Jewish. It's NOT synonymous.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:54 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"See! See! Someone from your side says it! You have to agree with it!"

The Democrats and Republicans are not (or at least shouldn't be) monolithic Borg entities. Honest disagreement within their ranks should be celebrated, not thrown back in their face to score points.
I am fascinated with the incessant concern that you show about the arguments the folks make around here lately. For example, that "response" is totally lacking in substance whatsoever. In fact, what I showed (had you bothered to look) that in fact this is NOT a partisan issue, but rather the comments made are objectively improper.

Quote:
The tone argument (also tone policing) is a logical fallacy that occurs when an argument is dismissed or accepted on its presentation: typically perceived crassness, hysteria or anger. Tone arguments are generally used by tone trolls (esp. concern trolls) as a method of positioning oneself as a Very Serious Person.

The fallacy relies on style over substance. It is an ad hominem attack, and thus an informal fallacy.
Content free whining about other people's arguments is not really an argument at all

Thanks, tho, for your Very Serious Response, tho.

hoo boy, so much concern, so much judging....

Last edited by The Big Dog; 11th February 2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:55 PM   #197
dudalb
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's NOT anti-semitic PERIOD. This is about standing against Israeli policies. Being anti-semitic is promoting racism against people that are Jewish. It's NOT synonymous.
But she worded in a way where it could be easily interpreted as Anti Semitic.
You simply don't want to give your opponents a club like that.
Now her original point has been totally lost in the fuss over her statement.
The older I get, the more I relize how accurate that old saying that it's not what you say, but how you say it, that makes or breaks a case is.
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:56 PM   #198
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's NOT anti-semitic PERIOD.
Saying something louder doesn't make it more true.

Quote:
This is about standing against Israeli policies. Being anti-semitic is promoting racism against people that are Jewish. It's NOT synonymous.
Again, that's not the basis for the claim that it was antisemitic. Why do I have to keep pointing out what should be obvious, that her tweets in question have nothing to do with Israeli policies?
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Old 11th February 2019, 12:57 PM   #199
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am fascinated with the incessant concern that you show about the arguments the folks make around here lately..
Well then you shouldn't be concerned, because you've never actually made an argument.
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Old 11th February 2019, 01:00 PM   #200
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But she worded in a way where it could be easily interpreted as Anti Semitic.
You simply don't want to give your opponents a club like that.
Now her original point has been totally lost in the fuss over her statement.
The older I get, the more I relize how accurate that old saying that it's not what you say, but how you say it, that makes or breaks a case is.
Another reason Twitter shouldn't be a thing for anybody, and that goes triple for politicians.
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