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Tags anti-semitism charges , Ilhan Omar , Kevin McCarthy , Minnesota politics , Twitter incidents

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Old 11th February 2019, 02:27 PM   #241
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm asking you because you strike me as more reasonable than some of the other posters here. Don't prove me wrong.

What I've been told, so far, is that she brought up the idea that the Jews are funneling money to politicians to promote Israel's agenda. That's not anti-semitic, in addition to not being controversial that political interest groups would do that, so no joy. Also apparently the Benjamins refers to Netanyahu. Again, not anti-semitic.

What else am I missing? So far there is nothing antisemitic, except the notion that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
OK, I will try:
THat the Jews are using money to take over the world is an old,old, anti semitic trope. I can see how Omar's statement could easily be interpreted as playing up to that trope, whether she intended it that way or not.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:29 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What else you're missing is the idea that money is the only reason politicians are doing that. It can't be because they think it's the right thing to do, it can't be because that's what their voters want. It can only be because of the money.
Not that it changes the overall landscape that much, but I still argue that the weird strain of end of the world fantasy that infects so much of American religious dogma is a not small factor in all that.

When I say American foreign policy toward Israel is largely controlled by the idea that Israel has to exist so it can play the Alderaan role in the American Religious Right's Left Behind self insert fan fiction I'm not really kidding.

"We have to support Israel so it's still there to be destroyed when Jesus returns" is... like a thing.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:30 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What else you're missing is the idea that money is the only reason politicians are doing that. It can't be because they think it's the right thing to do, it can't be because that's what their voters want. It can only be because of the money.
I would say "it's because they think it what their voters want" is the main reason.
Irony is I think if AIPAC and company did not spend one cent, political support for Israel would be about the same level.
I repeat, being hostile to Israel is politically stupid outside a very few electorial districts. THis is why a great many people who otherwise pretty much subscribe to the standard progressive dogma get off thst bus where Israel is concerned.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:33 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not that it changes the overall landscape that much, but I still argue that the weird strain of end of the world fantasy that infects so much of American religious dogma is a not small factor in all that.

When I say American foreign policy toward Israel is largely controlled by the idea that Israel has to exist so it can play the Alderaan role in the American Religious Right's Left Behind self insert fan fiction I'm not really kidding.

"We have to support Israel so it's still there to be destroyed when Jesus returns" is... like a thing.
I hate to sound like a hack for Deborah Lisstadt, but her new book "Anti Semitism" she goes, in detail into what she calls the "Love Israel, but Hate Jews" mentality where some virulent anti semites support Israel on some levels.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:36 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not that it changes the overall landscape that much, but I still argue that the weird strain of end of the world fantasy that infects so much of American religious dogma is a not small factor in all that.

When I say American foreign policy toward Israel is largely controlled by the idea that Israel has to exist so it can play the Alderaan role in the American Religious Right's Left Behind self insert fan fiction I'm not really kidding.

"We have to support Israel so it's still there to be destroyed when Jesus returns" is... like a thing.
Yeah, it's a thing, but I'm pretty sure it's a fringe thing. I don't think it comes close to forming the majority of support for Israel. Even in regards to religious support for Israel, it's probably more "Jews are a lot like Christians, but Muslims aren't".

But you're also right that this doesn't really change things, because either way it doesn't support Omar's hot take.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:36 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
OK, I will try:
THat the Jews are using money to take over the world is an old,old, anti semitic trope. I can see how Omar's statement could easily be interpreted as playing up to that trope, whether she intended it that way or not.

Someone in her position really should be more careful. And it's triply true being a Somali Muslim that a lot of people are just waiting to pounce on. I hope her apology is heartfelt and this was a lone mistake.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:39 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the, um, what lobby?

Hmm, I think I am getting a hint why you "think it's absurd to call it ant-semitic (sic)"
Really? What do you call AIPAC?
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:41 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And why is it so powerful? Because of all that Jew gold? Or because voters actually support Israel?

Hint:
The real reason is the latter, but Omar is claiming it's the former.
Both.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:41 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? What do you call AIPAC?

An Israeli lobby. You should know why the distinction is important.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:53 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Someone in her position really should be more careful. And it's triply true being a Somali Muslim that a lot of people are just waiting to pounce on. I hope her apology is heartfelt and this was a lone mistake.
She also backtracked on a "Not One Dollar for DHS" tweet. Not she says she meant she wanted to freeze DHS spening at he current level,not increase it,not defund DHA completely.
Politicians who get themselves in Trouble with stupid, badly though out tweets come in all flavors, I get.
She is going to have to learn that once you are in Congress. every thing you say is going to closely scrutinized. You have to very careful about how you word things.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:55 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm asking you because you strike me as more reasonable than some of the other posters here. Don't prove me wrong.

What I've been told, so far, is that she brought up the idea that the Jews are funneling money to politicians to promote Israel's agenda. That's not anti-semitic, in addition to not being controversial that political interest groups would do that, so no joy. Also apparently the Benjamins refers to Netanyahu. Again, not anti-semitic.

What else am I missing? So far there is nothing antisemitic, except the notion that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
Seriously, what do they think AIPAC does after all? I'm not saying Jewish people are the root of all evil. I don't believe that Jewish bankers controll the world either. I don't believe in the ridiculous conspiracy theories either. But to argue that AIPAC doesn't spend a lot of money getting politicians elected is obtuse ignorance.
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:57 PM   #252
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She's sorry..........(that she got called out for it)
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Old 11th February 2019, 02:58 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
An Israeli lobby. You should know why the distinction is important.
I do. But I think it's pretty clear what it does. A rose by any other name.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:00 PM   #254
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“I think every 2020 presidential contender will be asked how can they stand by Benjamin Netanyahu when he openly supports Trump’s border wall and compares it to his own draconian policies,” said Waleed Shahid, communications director for Justice Democrats, an assertive progressive group that calls for more criticism of Israel, which rose to prominence in 2018 with its early backing of Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:01 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Why do some Democrats hate Jews so much?
You would be well served if you digested ahhell's astute observations in post 56.

Short of that, you were better off posting emojis rather than foisting your impressions formed by viewing ink blots.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:02 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I do. But I think it's pretty clear what it does. A rose by any other name.
No wonder you don't think Omar's statements were anti-semetic. You're arguing for antisemitism yourself.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:07 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
You would be well served if you digested ahhell's astute observations in post 56.

Short of that, you were better off posting emojis rather than foisting your impressions formed by viewing ink blots.
Maybe applecord should a good look at some of Trump's supporters..like the ones in Charottesvile....
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:08 PM   #258
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:09 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe applecord should a good look at some of Trump's supporters..like the ones in Charottesvile....
Maybe you should stop personalizing the thread with your off topic posts. And learn to spell my name correctly


If you're capable that is. Maybe you'll be forced to apologize as well....
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:14 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No wonder you don't think Omar's statements were anti-semetic. You're arguing for antisemitism yourself.
NO! I am definitely NOT. People make distinctions when there is little difference. I get why they use them because there are plenty racist anti-semitic nuts out there. But AIPAC is a lobby of Jewish Americans trying to influence American policies toward Israel. Is it not?
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:18 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
NO! I am definitely NOT.
Say's the person who thinks "Jew gold" is the source of their influence.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:22 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
NO! I am definitely NOT. People make distinctions when there is little difference. I get why they use them because there are plenty racist anti-semitic nuts out there. But AIPAC is a lobby of Jewish Americans trying to influence American policies toward Israel. Is it not?
Ilhan says anti-Semitic stuff...

acbytesla: you call that anti-Semitic? Hold my beer....
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:24 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Say's the person who thinks "Jew gold" is the source of their influence.
Where did I say that? Because I didn't.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:24 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What else you're missing is the idea that money is the only reason politicians are doing that.
I'm not missing it because it's already been posted here. However, that does not translate into anti-semitism, especially since similar accusations are made re money in politics for other groups as well. It's not specific to the Joos.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
OK, I will try:
THat the Jews are using money to take over the world is an old,old, anti semitic trope. I can see how Omar's statement could easily be interpreted as playing up to that trope, whether she intended it that way or not.
I understand that. We don't seem to be really disagreeing much. My issue is not whether someone could interpret that as anti-semitic, but whether it is reasonable to interpret it that way.

And yes, it's an old and very enduring trope, unfortunately. But bringing it up does not make one an anti-semite just because anti-semites also use it. It doesn't follow.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't believe that Jewish bankers controll the world either.
And even if they would, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Or a good thing.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No wonder you don't think Omar's statements were anti-semetic. You're arguing for antisemitism yourself.
...what?
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:25 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Say's the person who thinks "Jew gold" is the source of their influence.
Oh, come on. You know what he meant. Is it necessary to score points on the wording, now? Goddamn it.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:26 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ilhan says anti-Semitic stuff...

acbytesla: you call that anti-Semitic? Hold my beer....
It wouldnt surprise me that she does. That said, i stand by my opinion on what she said today or was it yesterday?
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:26 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Where did I say that? Because I didn't.
The problem stems from this post:

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Both.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:27 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, come on. You know what he meant. Is it necessary to score points on the wording, now? Goddamn it.

Are you kidding?
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not missing it because it's already been posted here. However, that does not translate into anti-semitism, especially since similar accusations are made re money in politics for other groups as well. It's not specific to the Joos.
Money is often used as an explanation for why policy can tilt away from voter preference.

But voters are strongly in favor of supporting Israel.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:31 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem stems from this post:

And a long series of excuses for other anti-Semitic remarks.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:33 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Huh, that is curious, that is the second content free post attacking me, yet not even trying to address the thread topic, the links I have cited or basically anything substantive at all.

Quite curious, indeed.

Did you read the article I posted yet? I gotta bunch more.

"Level 2: The tone argument

Make it not about what the author said but how he said it: too angry, too arrogant, etc. Again, this does not point out why the argument is wrong. Even an arrogantly stated argument can be right."
Well, I'll say something about your cites: You have a seriously bad habit of misrepresenting stuff that you're linking to. The alleged list of other anti-Semitic statements by Omar was no such thing, and she apologized that some people took her comment about McCarthy as an anti-Semitic trope, which is hardly an admission that she meant it as one. It's simply an acknowledgement that some people took it that way, which we already knew, and an apology. But in context, it was clearly a slam on McCarthy, who is not Jewish.

The right-wing propaganda mill is a tempest desperately looking for teapots. I wonder why?
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:34 PM   #272
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OK, so I am a middle class, suburban, white guy and I like to think I am up to date on all my code words and stereotypes ...for research of course... but, I have never heard "Benjamin" being a slur for Jews. Is that really a thing?

Because a 37 year old quoting Diddy really doesn't strike me as odd.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:37 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem stems from this post:
I get it.

My point was that politicians do things for two reasons. They believe in them, they are paid to support them or both. And it is impossible to know which is which.

Now if people want to eliminate money from politics then we could eliminate that consideration. But alas, money is Mother's milk in the political sphere.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:38 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When I say American foreign policy toward Israel is largely controlled by the idea that Israel has to exist so it can play the Alderaan role in the American Religious Right's Left Behind self insert fan fiction I'm not really kidding.
That may be true of some small segment of society. The rest of us are largely controlled by the idea that every country has a right to exist.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:38 PM   #275
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
OK, so I am a middle class, suburban, white guy and I like to think I am up to date on all my code words and stereotypes ...for research of course... but, I have never heard "Benjamin" being a slur for Jews. Is that really a thing?

Because a 37 year old quoting Diddy really doesn't strike me as odd.
No, it's slang for 100 dollar bills and a reference to the "Jews control the money" trope (so close to "tripe").


ETA: I think she actually said "Benjamins" but that doesn't really seem to be an important distinction here.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:39 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Money is often used as an explanation for why policy can tilt away from voter preference.

But voters are strongly in favor of supporting Israel.
They are. But it's not a Carte Blanche approval
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:41 PM   #277
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A few hours after "apologizing" for her anti-Semitic remarks she retweets a thread making the same anti-Semitic remarks.

Say, totally sorry about my anti-Semitic comments about how Jews control all the money.
Now that we have THAT settled, here is a retweet of a "courageous" guy explaining how Jews control the world with money.

https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1095084754272243714

wow, what a scumbag

Last edited by The Big Dog; 11th February 2019 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 11th February 2019, 03:50 PM   #278
Donal
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, it's slang for 100 dollar bills and a reference to the "Jews control the money" trope (so close to "tripe").


ETA: I think she actually said "Benjamins" but that doesn't really seem to be an important distinction here.
How exactly is it a reference to the "Jews control the money trope"? I read it as "lobbyists use money to influence policy". Just because the lobbyist group in question happens to represent a faction in the Israeli government makes this anti-Semitic?

If I say oil lobbyists use their money to suppress environmental protection laws, is that anti-Semitic?

If I say the NRA uses money to stop gun control legislation, is that anti-Semitic?

If I say Saudi Arabia uses money to get the US government to keep sending weapons and logistical support in its proxy war with Iran in Yemen, is that anti-Semitic?
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:06 PM   #279
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Say, more good news! Politicians from all stripes have rushed to her side.

Both David Duke and Linda Sarsour have rallied to her defense!

That is like having both Hitler and Stalin on her side.

Good job Ilhan!
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Old 11th February 2019, 04:08 PM   #280
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, more good news! Politicians from all stripes have rushed to her side.

Both David Duke and Linda Sarsour have rallied to her defense!

That is like having both Hitler and Stalin on her side.

Good job Ilhan!
Was that before or after their defense of Trump?
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