ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags ISIS issues

Reply
Old 14th February 2019, 04:58 PM   #81
lobosrul5
Graduate Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,560
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seems one of the three teenage schoolgirls then budding sixth form pupils who thought it would be a great idea to join the ISIS movement in Syria, now wants to return to the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47229181


What does the panel think?

My initial thought was let her rot, but then callow youth does do stupid things - the Icarus syndrome - and I thought perhaps she deserves to be given a chance. However, her attitude irritates me and I can't help wondering if she is some kind of psychopath.
She left at the age of 15 or 16 if my math is right. Give her a second chance. Don't get me wrong, she deserves some time in prison first, but everyone deserves to be forgiven for crimes committed before they were 18 eventually.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 06:54 PM   #82
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
What? Look at the map I posted earlier. The remaining people in that 1 km≤ will soon surrender or die in the creation of a nice parking lot at the Euphrates shores. There is no returning, as there is no Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham anymore.
They paved paradise?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 10:15 PM   #83
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
She left at the age of 15 or 16 if my math is right. Give her a second chance. Don't get me wrong, she deserves some time in prison first, but everyone deserves to be forgiven for crimes committed before they were 18 eventually.
Doubt they can give her prison.

What I think she needs is time detained in an institution where they can evaluate her mental state and when it is safe to let her out.

Heard an interview with a UK journalist today who said from her attitude, she only wanted to come back because of the kid, as she had already lost two over there.

They need to understand what risk she is after it is born and it's in a safe place.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 10:24 PM   #84
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 39,885
From what she is saying she is still high risk.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 11:05 PM   #85
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Doubt they can give her prison.

What I think she needs is time detained in an institution where they can evaluate her mental state and when it is safe to let her out.

Heard an interview with a UK journalist today who said from her attitude, she only wanted to come back because of the kid, as she had already lost two over there.

They need to understand what risk she is after it is born and it's in a safe place.
Why do you doubt they can give her prison? Did she commit illegal acts for which she can be imprisoned? Answer: yes. Thereís no doubt that she could be given prison time is if she even makes it back.

And why do you assume she has mental health problems? Is there some mental problem you suspect her of having?

No, she is pretty clear that she is attracted to a particularly brutal form of Islam and thatís why she went there in the first place and why she is unrepentant.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 11:09 PM   #86
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why do you doubt they can give her prison? Did she commit illegal acts for which she can be imprisoned? Answer: yes. Thereís no doubt that she could be given prison time is if she even makes it back.

And why do you assume she has mental health problems? Is there some mental problem you suspect her of having?

No, she is pretty clear that she is attracted to a particularly brutal form of Islam and thatís why she went there in the first place and why she is unrepentant.
What will they charge her with? Bearing in mind she was a minor.

I never said she had mental health problems, but they have have to decide whether she will go rogue and do something harmful to people when the kid is in a safe place, and she is released.

That is what they need to ascertain, no?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 11:57 PM   #87
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What will they charge her with? Bearing in mind she was a minor.

I never said she had mental health problems, but they have have to decide whether she will go rogue and do something harmful to people when the kid is in a safe place, and she is released.

That is what they need to ascertain, no?
When she left she was 15. She is now 19 and she has been affiliated with a terorrist organization. The descriptions of what she could be charged with are described in the BBC article.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2019, 11:57 PM   #88
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 72,236
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What will they charge her with? Bearing in mind she was a minor....
The charges don't matter she was a minor. The sentence, but not the charges.

Surely this is, at a minimum, aiding and abetting an enemy of the state.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 12:14 AM   #89
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
When she left she was 15. She is now 19 and she has been affiliated with a terorrist organization. The descriptions of what she could be charged with are described in the BBC article.
Good luck with getting jail with that.

Her lawyers will have a field day
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 12:23 AM   #90
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Good luck with getting jail with that.

Her lawyers will have a field day
Did Tareena Shakilís lawyers have a field day?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-35457...-islamic-state
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 12:45 AM   #91
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Did Tareena Shakilís lawyers have a field day?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-35457...-islamic-state
She was an adult and not

"Your honour. What we have is a terrible story of a vulnerable, troubled teenager, with issues at home, in the lowest of emotional states.

Groomed by terrorists, and encouraged by two friends to run off on a foolish journey, which to such a young and easily manipulated mind seemed like a fairy tale.

Once trapped in a foreign country, with no escape, all she could do was follow the instructions of her elders......Well the few who spoke English.

And then the true horror of it all started. From grooming to brain washing.

To the point that even the horror of decapitation became just another part of the horrendous life this young teen unwittingly and naively entered.............."


Yadda yadda yadda
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 12:58 AM   #92
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
She was an adult and not

"Your honour. What we have is a terrible story of a vulnerable, troubled teenager, with issues at home, in the lowest of emotional states.

Groomed by terrorists, and encouraged by two friends to run off on a foolish journey, which to such a young and easily manipulated mind seemed like a fairy tale.

Once trapped in a foreign country, with no escape, all she could do was follow the instructions of her elders......Well the few who spoke English.

And then the true horror of it all started. From grooming to brain washing.

To the point that even the horror of decapitation became just another part of the horrendous life this young teen unwittingly and naively entered.............."


Yadda yadda yadda
Yeah, well hopefully once they have heard that nonsense, the prosecution can point out that even after entering a refugee camp she was still singing ISISís praises, and then they can throw the book at her.

And absolutely, she should have he child taken away and put into care.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 01:13 AM   #93
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, well hopefully once they have heard that nonsense, the prosecution can point out that even after entering a refugee camp she was still singing ISISís praises, and then they can throw the book at her.

And absolutely, she should have he child taken away and put into care.
The kid will probably be taken care of by her parents and hopefully the chick will be kept locked in care to see if she can or is even willing to be de-programmed, and take it from there.

At the end of the day, my hyperbolic lawyers words actually might have a slight bit of truth to them....Slight
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 02:34 AM   #94
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,076
It's not about the girl or the kid.
It's about fighting terrorism with more than just weapons.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 02:55 AM   #95
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not about the girl or the kid.
It's about fighting terrorism with more than just weapons.
I really don't mean to sound nasty, but frankly yes it is.

Which is why the thread title is "ISIS teenager wants to come home"
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:05 AM   #96
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,979
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but did she have her citizenship revoked?
No, as she isn't a dual-national, she can't be stripped of British citizenship.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:08 AM   #97
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,979
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, those high viscosity groups are dreadful, oil of them.
They're certainly a slippery bunch.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:08 AM   #98
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, as she isn't a dual-national, she can't be stripped of British citizenship.
A slight correction; an action to strip her of her citizenship would almost certainly not be legal under international (and EU) law. That doesn't mean it can't be done. The government might decide to do it anyway, they have before, and there's nothing anybody else can do about that aside from protest, "Look, this is not lawful!"
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:14 AM   #99
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,076
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I really don't mean to sound nasty, but frankly yes it is.

Which is why the thread title is "ISIS teenager wants to come home"
but that isn't the UK consideration here.
What is at stake is the signal that we are sending to Western fighters and supporters in the region: do you or don't you have a way back?
If we tell them that all the bridges are burned, we leave them little choice but to continue the conflict.

Not the smart move.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isnít.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:18 AM   #100
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by baron View Post
A slight correction; an action to strip her of her citizenship would almost certainly not be legal under international (and EU) law. That doesn't mean it can't be done. The government might decide to do it anyway, they have before, and there's nothing anybody else can do about that aside from protest, "Look, this is not lawful!"
Can't help thinking that wouldn't go down to well in this case.

Too much global attention now.

Even NZers know about it on our National News.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:23 AM   #101
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
but that isn't the UK consideration here.
What is at stake is the signal that we are sending to Western fighters and supporters in the region: do you or don't you have a way back?
If we tell them that all the bridges are burned, we leave them little choice but to continue the conflict.

Not the smart move.
Sorry, but I'm giving up on the niceties.

Which bit of my multiple posts saying keeping her institutionalised till she can prove she isn't a danger did you miss?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:28 AM   #102
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't help thinking that wouldn't go down to well in this case.

Too much global attention now.

Even NZers know about it on our National News.
It wouldn't go down well with foreign governments, it would go down very well with the majority populations of probably every Western country. I think the Sky News poll showed 4 in 5 people believe this woman should not be allowed back into the country. Bear in mind, foreign governments won't vote our government back into power, the people will (or might).
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:38 AM   #103
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by baron View Post
It wouldn't go down well with foreign governments, it would go down very well with the majority populations of probably every Western country. I think the Sky News poll showed 4 in 5 people believe this woman should not be allowed back into the country. Bear in mind, foreign governments won't vote our government back into power, the people will (or might).
I really really doubt that in this case

And I think people should think about it individually to this case.

What it would do is say to the rest of the world a 15 year old UK kid can stupidly leave the UK on a dumb whim without anyone stopping them or with much media crap, "caring", and after being indoctrined into ISIS, when they want to come home, their country takes away their citizenship and hangs them out to dry.

It's 2019. It is what it is.

It will happen. But go for your life
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 03:52 AM   #104
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 2,565
A friend of mine posted this on Facebook and I thought it was an interesting perspective. I post it here for reference - no point critiquing it for me - it's not my work. I just thought people might find it an interesting take:

Quote:
Take a deep breath, people. You're all getting outraged over a non-story.

This is about a girl from London who is now in a camp in Syria. A Times journalist bumped into her and realised who she was. When interviewed she expressed a desire to return to England for her baby to be born. That's it, that's the whole story, end of.

Still outraged? Let me explain further.

She has taken no steps to contact a consular official (not least because there are none in Syria, for safety reasons) and she is nine months pregnant so she certainly won’t be back in the UK for the birth. In all likelihood she won't be back in the UK for years, if ever.

If in a few years' time she somehow does manage to get to a consulate then unfortunately as a British citizen she has the right to come back. I don't like this any more than anyone else posting here, but it is international law that a country cannot leave anyone stateless. Whether we could or should allow it becomes an irrelevance as we have no choice in the matter here, like it or not she's our problem.

This sounds morally wrong I know but if it helps any, think about this the other way around: if we had say a French terrorist in the UK and wanted to deport them, and France said "non," how would we feel about that? We want unsavoury foreigners in the UK to go somewhere else yet also want unsavoury UK citizens in other countries to go somewhere else? We can't have it both ways.

Should she ever return to the UK then she will then be interviewed, probably charged, stand trial, and potentially be imprisoned for a very long time in accordance with English Law just like any other suspected criminal.

TL;DR - There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the UK flying her back tomorrow to give her a free council house and let her start up an ISIS cell in Bethnal Green, despite how many newspapers that story might sell.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:06 AM   #105
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
A friend of mine posted this on Facebook and I thought it was an interesting perspective. I post it here for reference - no point critiquing it for me - it's not my work. I just thought people might find it an interesting take:
Good post, but

"Should she ever return to the UK then she will then be interviewed, probably charged, stand trial, and potentially be imprisoned for a very long time in accordance with English Law just like any other suspected criminal."

What for as a 15 year old at the time, exactly?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:06 AM   #106
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I really really doubt that in this case

And I think people should think about it individually to this case.
They are. And the evidence shows they don't want her back.

Quote:
A Sky News poll asking if Shamima Begum should be allowed to return to the UK found that 76% think she should not, 16% believe she should and 8% did not know.
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
What it would do is say to the rest of the world a 15 year old UK kid can stupidly leave the UK on a dumb whim without anyone stopping them or with much media crap, "caring", and after being indoctrined into ISIS, when they want to come home, their country takes away their citizenship and hangs them out to dry.
They didn't leave on a whim. They spent months planning it and executed their plan with military precision. They knew exactly what they were doing.

She is not remorseful and has no regrets about joining ISIS. She wants to return to the UK because she is homeless and pregnant and wants free housing, free NHS care and benefits in the UK. There is no evidence her mindset has changed.

Who is the 'rest of the world' you are talking about? The US has openly stated the UK is too soft on returning terrorists and, tired of the UK government's lack of concrete action, wants to stick them all in Guantanamo. Not only is there no evidence the rest of the world cares about what happens to this particular terrorist, and certainly none that they support her right to return to the UK, it makes little difference because UK governments are not voted in on the basis of what foreigners think of them.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:13 AM   #107
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 24,657
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
but that isn't the UK consideration here.
What is at stake is the signal that we are sending to Western fighters and supporters in the region: do you or don't you have a way back?
If we tell them that all the bridges are burned, we leave them little choice but to continue the conflict.

Not the smart move.
I think that makes sense for those who were in areas overrun by ISIS who either had to throw their lot in with them or get decapitated, but not for enthusiastic followers. At the very least an expression of regret or of throwing off the illusions would be nice. But why build a bridge for unrepentant supporters who are potential if not actual terrorists?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:14 AM   #108
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
A friend of mine posted this on Facebook and I thought it was an interesting perspective. I post it here for reference - no point critiquing it for me - it's not my work. I just thought people might find it an interesting take:
Quote:
Take a deep breath, people. You're all getting outraged over a non-story.

This is about a girl from London who is now in a camp in Syria. A Times journalist bumped into her and realised who she was. When interviewed she expressed a desire to return to England for her baby to be born. That's it, that's the whole story, end of.

Still outraged? Let me explain further.

She has taken no steps to contact a consular official (not least because there are none in Syria, for safety reasons) and she is nine months pregnant so she certainly wonít be back in the UK for the birth. In all likelihood she won't be back in the UK for years, if ever.

If in a few years' time she somehow does manage to get to a consulate then unfortunately as a British citizen she has the right to come back. I don't like this any more than anyone else posting here, but it is international law that a country cannot leave anyone stateless. Whether we could or should allow it becomes an irrelevance as we have no choice in the matter here, like it or not she's our problem.

This sounds morally wrong I know but if it helps any, think about this the other way around: if we had say a French terrorist in the UK and wanted to deport them, and France said "non," how would we feel about that? We want unsavoury foreigners in the UK to go somewhere else yet also want unsavoury UK citizens in other countries to go somewhere else? We can't have it both ways.

Should she ever return to the UK then she will then be interviewed, probably charged, stand trial, and potentially be imprisoned for a very long time in accordance with English Law just like any other suspected criminal.

TL;DR - There is absolutely no chance whatsoever of the UK flying her back tomorrow to give her a free council house and let her start up an ISIS cell in Bethnal Green, despite how many newspapers that story might sell.
There are a few inaccuracies / issues here. As I pointed out, nothing can force the UK government to accept her back, lawful action or otherwise. If we decide not to accept her then that's an end to it. Countries breach international law all the time, it's not a big deal.

Now we know where she is there's a chance she will be targeted by 'refugee charities' as a priority case and guided through the system that prior to this she wouldn't have had much chance of negotiating.

She will not be imprisoned for a 'very long time' if she returns. I would place a bet with anybody that she wouldn't serve more than four years. She'd be out in her mid 20s ready to spit out another dozen terrorists-in-the-making funded by the British taxpayer.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:33 AM   #109
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by baron View Post

Who is the 'rest of the world' you are talking about? The US has openly stated the UK is too soft on returning terrorists and, tired of the UK government's lack of concrete action, wants to stick them all in Guantanamo. Not only is there no evidence the rest of the world cares about what happens to this particular terrorist, and certainly none that they support her right to return to the UK, it makes little difference because UK governments are not voted in on the basis of what foreigners think of them.
Personally think it is kind of weird your go to is what the US thinks.

Can't speak for Aus or Canada, but seems a tad silly

But it is all cool.

It has just become international news

And turfing her out after this would be extremely stupid
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:38 AM   #110
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think it is kind of weird your go to is what the US thinks.
Why is it weird? What 'rest of the world' were you referring to?

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't speak for Aus or Canada, but seems a tad silly

But it is all cool.

It has just become international news

And turfing her out after this would be extremely stupid
She wouldn't be being turfed out, she'd be prevented from returning. I don't see why it would be stupid and I can't see it having any repercussions whatsoever.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:48 AM   #111
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,886
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why is it weird? What 'rest of the world' were you referring to?


Well that answers the question really
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 04:52 AM   #112
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,279
Originally Posted by baron View Post

She wouldn't be being turfed out, she'd be prevented from returning. I don't see why it would be stupid and I can't see it having any repercussions whatsoever.
For starters, Caribbean nations (among others) could prevent the return of Windrush deportees from the UK.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 05:06 AM   #113
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well that answers the question really
If you can't answer a simple question then forget it.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
For starters, Caribbean nations (among others) could prevent the return of Windrush deportees from the UK.
They could, but they have that option now. They are not somehow emboldened to refuse entry to law-abiding citizens by a British precedent of not letting an ISIS terrorist return to the UK (not that it's a precedent in any case)
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 05:49 AM   #114
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,594
so many interestingpoints to consider ...

If the child were to be brought here and was brought up to be a decent, law-abiding member of society, then the high financial long-term costs might turn out to be well spent, If not, and Shamima Begum spent some years in prison, followed by long-term claims of a variety of benefits, then perhaps not.

I think it was Vixen who talked about showing what a Christian country is like- now that would really annoy me!
Decent people are so whether believers ore not.
Of course, this country needs to be far more secular, but at least it is moving in the right direction I think, albeit with two steps forward, one back.

Last edited by SusanB-M1; 15th February 2019 at 05:51 AM.
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 07:02 AM   #115
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,396
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
She left at the age of 15 or 16 if my math is right. Give her a second chance. Don't get me wrong, she deserves some time in prison first, but everyone deserves to be forgiven for crimes committed before they were 18 eventually.

The problem is that hundreds of previous cases in the UK have shown that we should have little confidence that many, if any, of these individuals actually change their belief in fundamentalist Islam and the need to form Islamic religious states by jihad.

There have now been hundreds of Islamist trials in the UK, and the evidence in those cases showed that wherever it has been possible to check on the subsequent views of people who had been convicted, few if any had genuinely abandoned their "jihad".

We are not dealing here with the typical sort of violent criminal behaviour that is so often associated with a very poor parental background, poor education and few job oppurtunites, drug and alcohol addiction etc. This is major criminal behavior (it's actually deliberate mass murder) that's resulting from fundemenatlist religious beliefs .. . it's almost impossible to change the mindset of people who are acting from such deeply held religious convictions.

Last edited by IanS; 15th February 2019 at 07:03 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 07:34 AM   #116
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
so many interestingpoints to consider ...

If the child were to be brought here and was brought up to be a decent, law-abiding member of society, then the high financial long-term costs might turn out to be well spent, If not, and Shamima Begum spent some years in prison, followed by long-term claims of a variety of benefits, then perhaps not.
The benefits and free housing costs, whilst they stick in the craw, are nothing compared to what it costs to monitor a suspected terrorist 24/7 - an eye watering £18m per person per year.

For every Maajid Nawaz there are 23,000 Islamists who cling to their beliefs and bide their time waiting for an opportunity to strike.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 09:35 AM   #117
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,083
Maybe this is a really dumb thing to think (I'm assuming it must be since no one else has really brought it up), or maybe I've just seen a bit too much Homeland, but wouldn't a real concern of taking these people back be that they could then become terrorists on UK soil? Unless they're jailed literally for life upon return, couldn't they be playing the long game?

I'm NOT saying they should or would be jailed for life. I'm just asking - is this a realistic concern?
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 09:38 AM   #118
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Maybe this is a really dumb thing to think (I'm assuming it must be since no one else has really brought it up), or maybe I've just seen a bit too much Homeland, but wouldn't a real concern of taking these people back be that they could then become terrorists on UK soil? Unless they're jailed literally for life upon return, couldn't they be playing the long game?
Of course, that's why the security services spend £18m monitoring them, per person per year.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 09:43 AM   #119
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,083
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course, that's why the security services spend £18m monitoring them, per person per year.
Okay, that's what I figured. So it seems like a perfect cover story for such an agent would be "I left as an innocent minor, I was manipulated, take me back, I'm a harmless little pregnant lady." Monitoring is great, but you can't catch everything unless you put multiple cameras in their residences and such.

That's my "on one hand" position, however. On the other, someone attempting that sort of deep cover would most likely not brag to a journalist about her indifference to baskets of severed heads.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2019, 09:51 AM   #120
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Okay, that's what I figured. So it seems like a perfect cover story for such an agent would be "I left as an innocent minor, I was manipulated, take me back, I'm a harmless little pregnant lady." Monitoring is great, but you can't catch everything unless you put multiple cameras in their residences and such.
That's right. The security services have resource to monitor about 50 suspects 24/7, and to keep general tabs on about 3000 more. That leaves over 20,000 essentially free to do what they like, and that's a conservative estimate. EDIT: And that's just the Islamist terrorists in the UK, before we even consider other forms of terrorism such as the far right.

Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
That's my "on one hand" position, however. On the other, someone attempting that sort of deep cover would most likely not brag to a journalist about her indifference to baskets of severed heads.
My own view is she's so committed to the cause she doesn't even recognise that her views are wrong. That's why I can easily see her strapped up with dynamite down the nearest tube station as soon as she's spawned her latest kid. Or even before if she can get back quick enough, I'm sure she doesn't mind, she's already let two starve to death.

Last edited by baron; 15th February 2019 at 09:53 AM.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.