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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 16th February 2019, 06:11 AM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is Manafort's conviction proof of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia? No. But it is an indicator, given that it's a man who risked life imprisonment to cover up one channel of communication between the Trump campaign and Russia and that's something that the judge - who has seen lots of evidence that is not yet public - says is "at the undisputed core of" the investigation.

Similarly, there's no proof that Trump has laundered money for Russia. But looking at what is known of his financial history turns up evidence for which the best explanation is that he was laundering money for Russia.

These things are not smocking guns. But all the evidence there is is inculpatory, and none of it is exculpatory. To me the balance of probability points quite firmly in one direction.
What do you base any of this on? Take the money laundering theory. You are saying that it is the best explanation from the financial history. For it to be the best explanation, you would need something like formal observation of similar histories and rate of laundering.
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:11 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Best said in the voice of Admiral Ackbar, I think.
That's what I intended...too lazy to post an image file.
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump is doing the finest impersonation of a guilty man I've ever seen. I've never witnessed an innocent person doing so many things that scream "I'm guilty" as Trump. An innocent person would welcome an investigation knowing he has nothing to hide. An innocent person would want the integrity of the investigation to be above reproach so that, when found faultless, it cannot be questioned by critics. Instead, we have Trump who has attacked the investigation and those who involved in it from day one as a "witch hunt". No, he's scared ****less of what they are finding. It may not be direct conspiracy with Russia by Trump, but he is scared to death of what they will find or have found. Only those suffering from severe HISS (Head in Sand Syndrome) cannot, or more accurately, refuse to see it.
I don't think that in abstract someone needs to be guilty to fear investigation, if they have reason to believe the investigators to be dishonest and out to get them.

After all, the victims of the original witch hunts in Salem were innocent but had plenty to fear from investigators. You could say the same thing about people being investigated in Soviet Russia or during McCarthy here.

So to really capture how guilty Trump appears we do also need to note how unfounded, inconsistent and dishonest his attempted smearing of the Mueller investigation is.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:19 PM   #84
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Mueller’s office says they have Roger Stone’s communications with Wikileaks and Guccifer.

Roger Stone says he had no communications with Wikileaks or Guccifer.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:22 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Mueller’s office says they have Roger Stone’s communications with Wikileaks and Guccifer.

Roger Stone says he had no communications with Wikileaks or Guccifer.
Oh, so he stole that data from another guy who is also named Roger Stone?
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:26 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't think that in abstract someone needs to be guilty to fear investigation, if they have reason to believe the investigators to be dishonest and out to get them.

After all, the victims of the original witch hunts in Salem were innocent but had plenty to fear from investigators. You could say the same thing about people being investigated in Soviet Russia or during McCarthy here.

So to really capture how guilty Trump appears we do also need to note how unfounded, inconsistent and dishonest his attempted smearing of the Mueller investigation is.
What reason does anyone have to believe this?

Evidently, those who DO believe this have quite a double standard of what constitutes evidence when applied to this vs when applied to Trump/Russia.
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well played. But he has a point. Process crimes aren't proxies for the crimes actually being investigated.

You're trying to traduce other offenses into proof of the offense you're alleging.
Just so we're clear and starting from the same point, "process crimes" is defined as "anything a Republican gets convicted of," right? Because maybe it's just me, but stuff you could serve decades behind bars if you're convicted of it sure doesn't smell like "process crimes."
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:15 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Just so we're clear and starting from the same point, "process crimes" is defined as "anything a Republican gets convicted of," right? Because maybe it's just me, but stuff you could serve decades behind bars if you're convicted of it sure doesn't smell like "process crimes."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_crime

It is that
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:53 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
After all, the victims of the original witch hunts in Salem were innocent but had plenty to fear from investigators.
Are we still in 1692?

Quote:
You could say the same thing about people being investigated in Soviet Russia or during McCarthy here.
or 1950?

Quote:
So to really capture how guilty Trump appears we do also need to note how unfounded, inconsistent and dishonest his attempted smearing of the Mueller investigation is.
No, we just have look at how the FBI has been conducting itself recently. Can you think of a recent case where the FBI avoided bowing to pressure for a 'witch hunt' and the hostile IG admitted that they had conducted an even-handed investigation?

4 key takeaways from the inspector general’s report on the FBI, Comey, and Clinton emails
Quote:
1) The investigative decisions in the Clinton email case seemed to be made on the merits, the IG finds

When it comes to the overall handling of the Hillary Clinton email investigation, Horowitz retraced its progress from its opening in July 2015 to its seeming conclusion in the summer of 2016, to try to assess whether the investigative team’s decisions were skewed by political bias — and on the whole, he found little evidence that they were.

The context is that there’s been much criticism from the right because investigators often used voluntary processes to get evidence, that they granted certain witnesses immunity, that their interview of Clinton herself was only for show, and that Clinton wasn’t charged for political reasons.

Yet in all these cases, Horowitz concludes that investigators’ choices were “not unreasonable.” He says these choices on evidence “were supported by Department and FBI policy and practice,” and that the immunity agreements were given after considering department policy. He also writes that FBI agents “asked Clinton what appeared to be appropriate questions and made use of documents to challenge Clinton’s testimony and assess her credibility during her interview.”

And when it comes to the decision not to prosecute Clinton or anyone else in the case, Horowitz writes that he found this was based on prosecutors’ “assessment of the facts, the law, and past Department practice in cases involving these statutes.” He adds, “We did not identify evidence of bias or improper considerations.”
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Old 16th February 2019, 07:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Day is night, up is down, his entire senior staff didn't meet with Russian actors to get dirt on Hillary, if you watch enough TV courtroom dramas they issue you a law degree, and the fact-free bubble from where you post has a lovely sheen.
Not just a river in Egypt, is it?
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Old 16th February 2019, 07:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
So to really capture how guilty Trump appears we do also need to note how unfounded, inconsistent and dishonest his attempted smearing of the Mueller investigation is.
Indeed, and we should remember that this pissant smearing of Mueller isn't the best that Trump can come up with, it's the best that he can buy from peoiple who do this for a living.
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Old 16th February 2019, 07:42 PM   #92
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
What reason does anyone have to believe this?
There's lots of corrupt and nasty people out there. Some of whom are indeed investigators, law enforcement, and so on. That fact is pretty much indisputable, quite honestly. To go into why that's pointedly relevant here, though... I have friends and family who strongly favor Republicans. Being the kind of person I am, I give their claims a fair hearing, which means that I've also seen a fair chunk of where they're coming from and what is influencing them. One of the very common themes that I've noticed in right-wing propaganda (I would dare to say that it's notably more prevalent there than in current left wing propaganda) is that they seize upon frequently banally trivial truths (which are true!) and wildly overemphasize them to get to an easy answer rather than actually addressing the totality of the facts or making any attempt to apply critical thinking or quality control. Hence how, across the country, we had Republicans getting up in arms about how Democrats were stealing elections and backing up their claims with evidence that... votes were being counted and reported in proper fashion. And that riled up a lot more of them. Some of the better of them pointed to actual "problems" that occurred at places like Broward County and claimed, without reasonable evidence, that those problems equated to voter fraud and attempts to steal the election, even after the Republican person overseeing the elections in Florida pointedly said that there was no evidence of foul play there, despite the fact that there were indeed problems occuring (and might I add that the problems that occurred at Broward were very much compounded by the alarmism in play that led to bad behavior by right wingers).

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Evidently, those who DO believe this have quite a double standard of what constitutes evidence when applied to this vs when applied to Trump/Russia.
I'm somewhat at the point where I question whether "double standard" is even particularly appropriate. That would imply that actual standards were being applied in the first place.
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Last edited by Aridas; 16th February 2019 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 16th February 2019, 09:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Oh, so he stole that data from another guy who is also named Roger Stone?
Coincidentally also a dapper dresser..
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Old 16th February 2019, 11:23 PM   #94
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Another summary of where we are:
Quote:
What we do know is that there were more than 100 contacts between Russia and the Trump campaign; moreover, Robert Mueller, the special counsel, has shown that four people in Trump’s orbit lied about contacts with Moscow.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/o...a-mueller.html
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Old 16th February 2019, 11:46 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
There's lots of corrupt and nasty people out there. Some of whom are indeed investigators, law enforcement, and so on. That fact is pretty much indisputable, quite honestly. To go into why that's pointedly relevant here, though... I have friends and family who strongly favor Republicans. Being the kind of person I am, I give their claims a fair hearing, which means that I've also seen a fair chunk of where they're coming from and what is influencing them. One of the very common themes that I've noticed in right-wing propaganda (I would dare to say that it's notably more prevalent there than in current left wing propaganda) is that they seize upon frequently banally trivial truths (which are true!) and wildly overemphasize them to get to an easy answer rather than actually addressing the totality of the facts or making any attempt to apply critical thinking or quality control. Hence how, across the country, we had Republicans getting up in arms about how Democrats were stealing elections and backing up their claims with evidence that... votes were being counted and reported in proper fashion. And that riled up a lot more of them. Some of the better of them pointed to actual "problems" that occurred at places like Broward County and claimed, without reasonable evidence, that those problems equated to voter fraud and attempts to steal the election, even after the Republican person overseeing the elections in Florida pointedly said that there was no evidence of foul play there, despite the fact that there were indeed problems occuring (and might I add that the problems that occurred at Broward were very much compounded by the alarmism in play that led to bad behavior by right wingers)....
Any chance you understand the concept of paragraphs? Walls of text are not worth the time it takes to read them.
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Old 17th February 2019, 12:27 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I don't think that in abstract someone needs to be guilty to fear investigation, if they have reason to believe the investigators to be dishonest and out to get them.

After all, the victims of the original witch hunts in Salem were innocent but had plenty to fear from investigators. You could say the same thing about people being investigated in Soviet Russia or during McCarthy here.

So to really capture how guilty Trump appears we do also need to note how unfounded, inconsistent and dishonest his attempted smearing of the Mueller investigation is.
I agree, which is why I said "Instead, we have Trump who has attacked the investigation and those who involved in it from day one as a "witch hunt". He began his discrediting campaign from the very beginning. I don't think Trump is paranoid. I think he has every right to be afraid...of the truth.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:09 AM   #97
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Any chance you understand the concept of paragraphs? Walls of text are not worth the time it takes to read them.
Paragraphs? What are those? Are they tasty?

Short version, though -

There's lots of corrupt and nasty people out there. Some of whom are indeed investigators, law enforcement, and so on. That fact is pretty much indisputable, quite honestly. Given the quality of logic used far too often by those on the right, showing that it actually applies meaningfully in any particular case they they want to apply it to is entirely skipped when it comes to what they believe.

It's a trait of the average right-winger's arguments that I've seen rather consistently across many topics.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Any chance you understand the concept of paragraphs? Walls of text are not worth the time it takes to read them.
Why do you hate walls?
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:24 AM   #99
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More speculation on why Manafort just can't/won't stop lying.

Quote:
The only two men who know what transpired between campaign chairman and candidate during the campaign are Manafort and Trump. Manafort was Trump’s cut-out to Putin’s intelligence operatives who were hacking the Democrats’ emails and releasing them through WikiLeaks. They obviously used the campaign polling data Manafort passed to Kilimnik in determining when to release information damaging to Hillary Clinton and her campaign chairman, John Podesta. Only Manafort knows what instructions Trump gave him when he was dealing with the Russians during the campaign, and so far, he is keeping this very, very big secret.
......
Trump will pay off Manafort for his silence with a pardon, and the Russians will pay him off with millions of dollars. That’s why Paul Manafort is sitting in jail in Washington D.C. lying to Robert Mueller’s investigators. He’s always been a dirty-trickster and a fixer, and just because he’s wearing an orange jumpsuit and going gray in the absence of his bottle of black hair dye doesn’t mean he’s stopped trickstering and fixing. Look out, Bridgehampton and Manhattan! Paul Manafort has a big secret and even bigger plans to use it to make his comeback!
https://www.salon.com/2019/02/16/man...-russian-cash/
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It was a pro russian group before the campaign. Pro Russians have contact with Russians isn't that interesting.
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:58 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Given the quality of logic used far too often by those on the right, showing that it actually applies meaningfully in any particular case they they want to apply it to is entirely skipped when it comes to what they believe.

It's a trait of the average right-winger's arguments that I've seen rather consistently across many topics.
Interestingly, in my decades as a Republican, I viewed liberal Democrats as similarly logic-impaired. I won’t derail the thread with specifics, but in a general sense I found Republicans more pragmatic and logical in their solutions to problems. And thought the Democrats as a whole had good intentions, but often ignored the unintended consequences of their policies.

But the last 2+ years has certainly disabused me of any such thoughts, so no need to point out the unprincipled cesspool that the Republican Party has become - and that I no longer affiliate with.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:48 AM   #102
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Interestingly, in my decades as a Republican, I viewed liberal Democrats as similarly logic-impaired. I won’t derail the thread with specifics, but in a general sense I found Republicans more pragmatic and logical in their solutions to problems. And thought the Democrats as a whole had good intentions, but often ignored the unintended consequences of their policies.

But the last 2+ years has certainly disabused be of any such thoughts, so no need to point out the unprincipled cesspool that the Republican Party has become - and that I no longer affiliate with.
It may well be worthwhile to note that Democrats certainly are very much human as well, and thus also notably fallible. I don't regard the Democratic Party, as a whole, as particularly better or worse intellectually than they were, say, 20 years ago. I consider the Democrats somewhat iffy, overall, but with their hearts largely in the right places. Mostly, at least, because a number of them are overly influenced by big money pusher agendas still. With that said, the depths that the Republican Party has sunk to has certainly provoked a distinct movement among the Democrats to clean things up and alter the status quo for the better. That's a good thing. May it last and be quite impactful.

The current Republican Party is indeed a blatantly obviously unprincipled cesspool, one which caters directly to the big money pushers. 20 years ago, though, to carry on the example, they were at least much more defensible and less obvious. Furthermore, they were notably better intellectually then compared to now, I'd say. Still catering directly to the big money pushers, though, but with much more on their plates.

Either way, I can still respect actual conservatives, even if I may disagree with them frequently, and think that they should very much be a respected part of the conversation to temper and help identify the actual problems in more liberal proposals.
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Old 17th February 2019, 08:10 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post

Furthermore, they were notably better intellectually then compared to now, I'd say.
I agree. There’s an interesting documentary about debates between William F. Buckley and Gore Vidal that I think exemplifies this.

I’ll see if I can find it...

Here you go:



Available on Netflix and worth a watch.

Shows how far the Republican Party has sunk.
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Old 17th February 2019, 11:35 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I agree. There’s an interesting documentary about debates between William F. Buckley and Gore Vidal that I think exemplifies this.

I’ll see if I can find it...

Here you go:

https://assets.nflxext.com/us/boxsho...0/80038199.jpg

Available on Netflix and worth a watch.

Shows how far the Republican Party has sunk.
No kidding. Those guys had brains. Who is at the top of the Republican intellectual pile now?
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Old 17th February 2019, 11:39 AM   #105
theprestige
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
No kidding. Those guys had brains. Who is at the top of the Republican intellectual pile now?
Hell, who's at the top of the Democrat intellectual pile now? AOC?
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Old 17th February 2019, 11:40 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hell, who's at the top of the Democrat intellectual pile now? AOC?
No she is not.

My question was serious.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:47 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Why do you hate walls?
They're bad for endangered species.
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Old 17th February 2019, 02:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
No she is not.

My question was serious.
George Will is still a thoughtful commentator, but of course, he is no longer a Republican.

David Brooks is also pretty good and still a Republican, far as I know, but he's hardly influential in the new GOP.
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Old 17th February 2019, 02:50 PM   #109
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Trump Tweets

“These guys, the investigators, ought to be in jail. What they have done, working with the Obama intelligence agencies, is simply unprecedented. This is one of the greatest political hoaxes ever perpetrated on the people of this Country, and Mueller is a coverup.” Rush Limbaugh
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Old 17th February 2019, 02:51 PM   #110
Captain_Swoop
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I thought as President they were his agencies.
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:03 PM   #111
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I thought as President they were his agencies.
He did too. Just that he thought that they were HIS, Trump's personal Praetorian Guard. His own Leibstandarte. Working for HIM. To protect HIM.

And so did Rush. So now we know what Rush thinks about the US constitution - it's there to make his president an unassailable dictator.
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:18 PM   #112
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https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/s...75307574714368

Quote:
NEW: Cambridge Analytica employee who worked on Brexit is subpoeaned by Robert Mueller. This is BIG. Brittany Kaiser - who sat next to @arron_banks at LeaveEU launch - becomes subject of Mueller inquiry into Trump-Russia collusion ������
More details in the rest of the thread, and article embedded in the first tweet.
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:23 PM   #113
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https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/s...01529149997057

Quote:
Wow. In conversation with ⁦@DavidKris⁩ and ⁦@n8jones81, former FISA Presiding Judge John Bates addresses the controversy over the Carter Page FISA application.⁩

"I will note and note with some force that I have seen nothing that indicates that the court was misled, that the Department of Justice or the intelligence community made misrepresentations to the court....

... And not only have I seen nothing that would indicate that, I have heard nothing that persuasively makes that case."
More embedded in first tweet.
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:26 PM   #114
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https://twitter.com/amjoyshow/status...56579345031168

Quote:
.@NatashaBertrand: McCabe explained to me they had an articulable set of facts believed to be evidence enough to believe #Trump needed to be investigated on whether he was compromised by Putin... Firing Comey sealed the deal but the FBI collected evidence for months before #AMJoy
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Old 17th February 2019, 04:57 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I thought as President they were his agencies.
I thought no president would ever retweet Rush.
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Old 17th February 2019, 05:11 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
No she is not.

My question was serious.
David Frum
Rick Wilson
David Brooks
Tom Nichols
James Kirchick
there are others but intellectualism seems to be the polar opposite of populism, a disease that no part of the political spectrum is immune to.
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Old 17th February 2019, 05:25 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
No kidding. Those guys had brains. Who is at the top of the Republican intellectual pile now?
Doctor Sebastian Gorka. Doctor Gorka is a Doctor, as he'll be the first to tell you.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...rvative-media/
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Old 17th February 2019, 05:58 PM   #118
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TrumpTweets

The Mueller investigation is totally conflicted, illegal and rigged! Should never have been allowed to begin, except for the Collusion and many crimes committed by the Democrats. Witch Hunt!

Disgraced FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe pretends to be a “poor little Angel” when in fact he was a big part of the Crooked Hillary Scandal & the Russia Hoax - a puppet for Leakin’ James Comey. I.G. report on McCabe was devastating. Part of “insurance policy” in case I won....

....Many of the top FBI brass were fired, forced to leave, or left. McCabe’s wife received BIG DOLLARS from Clinton people for her campaign - he gave Hillary a pass. McCabe is a disgrace to the FBI and a disgrace to our Country. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:06 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Any chance you understand the concept of paragraphs? Walls of text are not worth the time it takes to read them.
Trumpkin mode:
You just proved walls work! Their wall o text protected them from a rebuttal! BUILD THE WALL!
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Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 17th February 2019 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 17th February 2019, 06:13 PM   #120
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
TrumpTweets

The Mueller investigation is totally conflicted, illegal and rigged! Should never have been allowed to begin, except for the Collusion and many crimes committed by the Democrats. Witch Hunt!

Disgraced FBI Acting Director Andrew McCabe pretends to be a “poor little Angel” when in fact he was a big part of the Crooked Hillary Scandal & the Russia Hoax - a puppet for Leakin’ James Comey. I.G. report on McCabe was devastating. Part of “insurance policy” in case I won....

....Many of the top FBI brass were fired, forced to leave, or left. McCabe’s wife received BIG DOLLARS from Clinton people for her campaign - he gave Hillary a pass. McCabe is a disgrace to the FBI and a disgrace to our Country. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
Is this not a retweet of himself??
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