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Old 17th February 2019, 10:10 AM   #1
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Former grave of Karl Marx vandalised. Twice.

BBC News: Karl Marx - Monument vandalised for second time in two weeks

"Karl Marx's memorial in north London has been vandalised for the second time in two weeks.

The words "Doctrine of Hate" and "Architect of Genocide" are scrawled in red on the Grade I-listed grave in Highgate Cemetery.

This latest incident follows a "deliberate and sustained" hammer attack on 4 February that left the memorial badly damaged.

There have been no arrests in connection with either attack.

Friends of Highgate Cemetery Trust said the German philosopher's memorial would "never be the same again" following the previous attack."

Previous attack reported here.

I don't recall the first attack even being on the TV news, while the second may have only been on the BBC London local news. Recent vandalism of the Bomb Command Memorial has certainly been more widely reported.

It's worth highlighting that the cemetery is not open to the public, except by fee-paying tours organised by the trust which owns it. This is quite a bone of contention in many circles, given the number of prominent burials and memorials in the grounds, including over 300 designated war graves.

Somewhat ironically, Alexander Litvinenko is also buried there, obviously deeper than usual, and in a lead-lined coffin.
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Old 17th February 2019, 10:12 AM   #2
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Was the first instance when they removed his remains?
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Old 17th February 2019, 10:14 AM   #3
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I saw it on the BBC news.
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Old 17th February 2019, 10:25 AM   #4
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From each according to his artistic ability, I guess
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Old 17th February 2019, 11:15 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's worth highlighting that the cemetery is not open to the public, except by fee-paying tours organised by the trust which owns it.

That’s the West Cemetary. Marx’s memorial is in the East Cemetary, where there is an admission charge but you don’t have to book a guided tour.
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Old 17th February 2019, 11:27 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That’s the West Cemetary. Marx’s memorial is in the East Cemetary, where there is an admission charge but you don’t have to book a guided tour.
Me culpa, although I think the fee-paying requirement is the objectionable part. The sooner the National Trust takes over, the better.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #7
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How much do you wanna bet the vandals hadn't actually read anything by Marx.
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Old 17th February 2019, 05:01 PM   #8
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Well just like the Confederate statues maybe it's time all communist statues and shrines should come down as well
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:32 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Well just like the Confederate statues maybe it's time all communist statues and shrines should come down as well
How many communist art works do you pass on your way to register to vote or go to class? Have the Daughters of the October Revolution funded statues on city or state land in Massachusetts that we don't know about? 'Cuz you have my sympathy if that's the case.
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Old 18th February 2019, 12:15 AM   #10
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They should consider getting the facts right when they restore the monument:

May 5, 1818 to March 14, 1883 (Wikipedia)
Feb. 12, 1814 to Dec. 2, 1881 (photo in the linked article)

Wikipedia seems to be right - unless they took a very long time burying him ...
Frederick Engels’ Speech at the Grave of Karl Marx - Highgate Cemetery, London. March 17, 1883
(I wonder why it says "transcribed" unless they had an actual recording, which seems highly unlikely - albeit theoretically possible (Wikipedia).)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th February 2019, 01:53 AM   #11
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The photo I think you are referencing shows the date of the death of his wife.
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Old 18th February 2019, 02:15 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
How many communist art works do you pass on your way to register to vote or go to class? Have the Daughters of the October Revolution funded statues on city or state land in Massachusetts that we don't know about? 'Cuz you have my sympathy if that's the case.
And in the former Eastern block, communist statues were expressions of power and intimidation and have generally been removed.

However, unless my knowledge of history is amiss, I don't recall Higate Cemetery being part of a communist dictatorship, so it's a different situation.
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Old 18th February 2019, 03:21 AM   #13
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I find it funny that the OP is aghast that the vandalism of the Bomber Command memorial attracted more news coverage than the vandalism of the statue of Marx. Well gee, how peculiar, I wonder why people would attach more importance to a statue commemorating those who gave their lives to protect this country than one representing a pontificating foreign crackpot communist.
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Old 18th February 2019, 03:51 AM   #14
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I have the deepest respect for Marx.

He wrote a big fat boring economics book in a small apartment with five small children running around. I could never do that.
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Old 18th February 2019, 06:41 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I have the deepest respect for Marx.

He wrote a big fat boring economics book in a small apartment with five small children running around. I could never do that.
Yeah, respect. I find working on far less significant books with one child running around hard enough...
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Old 18th February 2019, 08:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I have the deepest respect for Marx.

He wrote a big fat boring economics book in a small apartment with five small children running around. I could never do that.
I can't even read books anymore and I only have 2.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The photo I think you are referencing shows the date of the death of his wife.

You are right, of course. That also explains why it says "Karl Marx (...) and Karl Marx"! Jenny von Westphalen (different photo).

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well gee, how peculiar, I wonder why people would attach more importance to a statue commemorating those who gave their lives to protect this country than one representing a pontificating foreign crackpot communist.

Maybe because he was neither pontificating nor a crackpot.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
He wrote a big fat boring economics book in a small apartment with five small children running around. I could never do that.

It's big and fat but not boring. And it's extremely well and thoroughly researched, in particular Vol. 1, which is the only one he finished.
And this is probably where he wrote most of it: The British Museum Reading Room (Wikipedia). There weren't any small children running around.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Maybe because he was neither pontificating nor a crackpot.
That's a matter of opinion, but if you prefer -

Well gee, how peculiar, I wonder why people would attach more importance to a statue commemorating those who gave their lives to protect this country than one representing a foreign philosopher indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions of people.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I have the deepest respect for Marx.

He wrote a big fat boring economics book in a small apartment with five small children running around. I could never do that.
In his defense the... father of Modern Communism had a live-in servant to help with all that because of course he bloody did.

But we should stop this. Communism jokes aren't funny unless everyone gets it.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:27 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's a matter of opinion, but if you prefer -

Well gee, how peculiar, I wonder why people would attach more importance to a statue commemorating those who gave their lives to protect this country than one representing a foreign philosopher indirectly responsible for the deaths of millions of people.

Not even indirectly. What Stalin did had nothing to do with Capital.
Do you seriously want to repeat TBD's mistake? You know, the "Atheist Bible" allegedly preaching book burning, the destruction of churches etc:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12427773
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12428412

It's always so damn embarrassing when people who never opened the book pretend to know what it's all about ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th February 2019 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In his defense the... father of Modern Communism had a live-in servant to help with all that because of course he bloody did.

Yes, he did. And apparently he also cheated on his wife with her and got her pregnant.
And your point is what exactly?

Quote:
But we should stop this. Communism jokes aren't funny unless everyone gets it.

It's not a joke, it's ignorance. And as such, it can be corrected.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Well just like the Confederate statues maybe it's time all communist statues and shrines should come down as well
Where are people agitating to have confederate grave markers removed?

Grave markers are seen as common courtesy. Even the worst of the worst can have them, assuming they have someone willing to pay for it. There's a difference between a tombstone in a cemetery and a statue in a place of honor, like the public square.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But we should stop this. Communism jokes aren't funny unless everyone gets it.
As my son said to me yesterday, communism looks good in theory, but in practise there are a lot of red flags.

Dave
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But we should stop this. Communism jokes aren't funny unless everyone gets it.
Well, I got it.
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Old 18th February 2019, 09:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As my son said to me yesterday, communism looks good in theory, but in practise there are a lot of red flags.
Criticism of communism is frequently engineered by capitalists merely so they can hold onto power. Don't fall for these red herrings.
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:33 PM   #26
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Honestly, I'm still doing a double-take at the phrase "former grave." That's just not something that you see every day.
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Honestly, I'm still doing a double-take at the phrase "former grave." That's just not something that you see every day.
Wasn't there a 1950s B-movie I Married a Communist Vampire from Space?
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #28
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I find it comforting that this passes for news..

Must not be much other bad stuff going on..
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Old 19th February 2019, 12:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I find it comforting that this passes for news..

Must not be much other bad stuff going on..
It's not really making the national news, only the local London bulletins.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #30
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Sometimes what looks like graffiti is just stray marks.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Wasn't there a 1950s B-movie I Married a Communist Vampire from Space?

You're probably thinking of this one: The Woman on Pier 13/I Married a Communist (Wikipedia).
Most of the people who pretend to know what Das Kapital is all about probably never got closer to the book than watching this movie.
I think that adding elements of science-fiction to Communism is a fairly recent development of American Anti-Communism: Were the ‘Sonic Attacks’ on American Diplomats Just Sci-Fi?
(Unless you consider the original version of Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Wikipedia) to be about Communists.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And in the former Eastern block, communist statues were expressions of power and intimidation and have generally been removed.

However, unless my knowledge of history is amiss, I don't recall Higate Cemetery being part of a communist dictatorship, so it's a different situation.
Clearly the right thing to do in their minds is to vandalize the graves of confederate leaders
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly the right thing to do in their minds is to vandalize the graves of confederate leaders
There's a difference between a grave and a monument. Nobody dug up Karl's bones. I'd frown on somebody defacing an ordinary slab gravestone, but this thing includes a larger-than-life bronze head. And apparently his remains aren't even there? I'm not saying it was a good thing, but I'm not as sympathetic as I'd be if it were an actual, ordinary grave.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Criticism of communism is frequently engineered by capitalists merely so they can hold onto power. Don't fall for these red herrings.
Come on capitalism is one of the greatest most popular forms of human sacrifice in history. You have all kinds of people dying solely to provide motivation to others so they can know at least they are not dying for this flaws against capitalism like so many do.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:51 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Come on capitalism is one of the greatest most popular forms of human sacrifice in history. You have all kinds of people dying solely to provide motivation to others so they can know at least they are not dying for this flaws against capitalism like so many do.
I wonder if communism might have worked better if it'd arisen in different times. All the places it was implemented were either throwing off dictatorships, fighting against foreign imperialist occupation, or both at once. If it had been dreamt up later, after a period of stable democracy, perhaps it would have worked better.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wonder if communism might have worked better if it'd arisen in different times. All the places it was implemented were either throwing off dictatorships, fighting against foreign imperialist occupation, or both at once. If it had been dreamt up later, after a period of stable democracy, perhaps it would have worked better.
Naa it is too much fun seeing people dying from the costs of insulin going up to line the pockets of the rich, for people to give it up.That is what the people want, that is the most moral way to get rid of the worthless population so says the glory of capitalism after all. Extorting more and more from a captive audience is the truest expression of capitalism and so the most sacred and beloved thing in america.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:58 PM   #37
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Because Communism is pretty much only attractive to people who are already 100% royally (radio edit)-ed all the way.

You've pretty much got to be at the sitting there trying to figure out which leg you want to cut off to eat for dinner point before a Communist Bread Line starts to look a good idea.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 19th February 2019 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:59 PM   #38
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Communism is pretty much only attractive to people who are already 100% royally (radio edit)-ed all the way.

You've pretty much got to be at the sitting there trying to figure out which leg you want to cut off to eat for dinner point before a Communist Bread Line starts to look a good idea.
I'm not so sure about that. If you asked a Dust Bowl refugee what they thought about capitalism you'd get a different answer from asking a Gilded Age railroad tycoon. Experience matters. I wouldn't venture to claim that a given idea would be viewed negatively in all possible circumstances and surroundings, or that one could only be viewed positively in negative circumstances and surroundings.
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Old 20th February 2019, 03:33 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Communism is pretty much only attractive to people who are already 100% royally (radio edit)-ed all the way.

You've pretty much got to be at the sitting there trying to figure out which leg you want to cut off to eat for dinner point before a Communist Bread Line starts to look a good idea.
History very much contradicts your line of thinking.
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Old 20th February 2019, 03:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
[..]
(I wonder why it says "transcribed" unless they had an actual recording, which seems highly unlikely - albeit theoretically possible (Wikipedia).)
Because "transcribe" means "write that what is spoken." No recording necessary. It was written down = transcribed at the time it was given by attendees.
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